Why does my EJ22 make so little power?

Zac86 · 08-17-2008, 11:37 PM

Lets say compared to a honda b18c engine. We both have the same 9.7:1 Compression ratios iirc yet he has smaller displacement and makes 170bhp compared to my 135bhp. Can someone explain this or is this like comparing apples to oranges?

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ballitch · 08-17-2008, 11:51 PM

He may make 170 hp, but only 100-110 ft. lbs. of torque. Whereas the EJ22 makes 135 hp, and about 140 ft. lbs. of torque. I know nothing about honda motors, so I'll assume that motor has v-tech, maybe only on the intake cam, but I have no idea. It is pretty common knowledge that v-tech and all other various forms of it add power higher in the rpm range, I guess that is where his extra ponies come from.

~Josh~

jamal · 08-17-2008, 11:54 PM

they rev higher. tq x rpm = hp

phoenix1112 · 08-17-2008, 11:57 PM

Better flowing heads as well I'd assume.

kos · 08-18-2008, 01:36 AM

less parasitic loss as well.

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 02:15 AM

Its a little bit like comparing apples to oranges in a sense.

Ok to compare we'll use your 2.2L vs the 1.8L honda.

Your motor is a lower reving motor, horizontally opposed, which is good for torque, but not so good for horsepower, less efficent to make it run compared to the i4 with only one head. the larger displacement makes torque better, but won't rev as high has the lower displacement with a shorter stroke. In general on N/A motors with 6 cyl or less, higher rpm makes more power. Those are the cold hard facts that are directly related to the size and style of the engine.

Now the parts you cannot tell by pure numbers are the specifics of each motor. The flow of the heads, bore, stroke, weight of internals/efficeniceny (spelling is wrong i know), camshaft gind, tune, and smaller factors like operating temperature, lubrication, engine layout and drive type will make huge difference in power output. Not to mention the intake, headers and exhaust restrictions also effect power greatly.

If you got more agressive cams, headers, intake and exhaust with a decent tune you'd be making more than 170 horsepower and you would have the extra torque that the vtec honda lacks.

There are so many factors that go into the output of a motor, comparing any two motors of different sizes or styles is exactly like comparing apples to oranges.

My eclipse's 250 horsepower v6 makes the same power some early corvette 327 (5.4L) v8s made. Every motor is different

WRXbrother · 08-18-2008, 06:03 AM

The Honda Motor has 16 valves adn V-teck. That simply gives the airflow it needs to make that kind of power. Your Ej22 is a SOHC 8 valve engine designed for off roading and towing capabilities in a much bigger car.

Race him on gravel! or rain, or snow, from a dig!
Other than a sunny day at a paved track, you'll win.

Storm · 08-18-2008, 06:43 AM

All 4cyl EJ motors are 16v. 8v motors went when they stopped making the EA series motors.

Way too many differences in engine design to try and compare them.

Jay

yarrgh · 08-18-2008, 12:25 PM

don't forget that your awd sucks up some power too

Hites · 08-18-2008, 12:54 PM

the stupid in this thread is gettin a lil too high, so ill try and steer things back to where they should have been in the first place.

firstly, your b18c/ej22e comparo is just wrong. the b18c has vtec, is dohc, and has less cubes. what we should be comparing the ej22e is to hondas workhorse engine of the same year (lets pick 1997), the f22b2 that can be found in the common accord LX. check out the hp and tq:

145hp @ 5500rpm
147tq @ 4500rpm

now compare to the 97 impreza:

137hp @ 5400rpm
145tq @ 4000rpm

see? theyre pretty similar.

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hites

the stupid in this thread is gettin a lil too high, so ill try and steer things back to where they should have been in the first place.

firstly, your b18c/ej22e comparo is just wrong. the b18c has vtec, is dohc, and has less cubes. what we should be comparing the ej22e is to hondas workhorse engine of the same year (lets pick 1997), the f22b2 that can be found in the common accord LX. check out the hp and tq:

145hp @ 5500rpm
147tq @ 4500rpm

now compare to the 97 impreza:

137hp @ 5400rpm
145tq @ 4000rpm

see? theyre pretty similar.

The f22b2 engine actually makes 130hp/139tq. Also it uses a much lower compression ratio of 8.8:1. Now comparing these two engines is no better than comparing the vtec or any other engine. The author of this post chose two specific engines and asked a question about them. Your comparison of the 2.2L engines served no purpose whatsoever, and just added more confusion to the mix. In no way did you put this thread "back to where it should have been", instead you just wasted everyones time with something completely irrelivant. Don't bash the thread and then post useless drivel.

Storm · 08-18-2008, 01:15 PM

C'mon....the thread was a goner before it had a chance.

Jay.

Hites · 08-18-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocoholic005

The f22b2 engine actually makes 130hp/139tq. Also it uses a much lower compression ratio of 8.8:1. Now comparing these two engines is no better than comparing the vtec or any other engine. The author of this post chose two specific engines and asked a question about them. Your comparison of the 2.2L engines served no purpose whatsoever, and just added more confusion to the mix. In no way did you put this thread "back to where it should have been", instead you just wasted everyones time with something completely irrelivant. Don't bash the thread and then post useless drivel.

actually, you proved my point even further. the f22b2 has the same displacement, no vtec, same number of valves, sohc, but makes less power and torque due to its lower compression. thanks! i always love having my logic beat out failing logic like yours.

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hites

actually, you proved my point even further. the f22b2 has the same displacement, no vtec, same number of valves, sohc, but makes less power and torque due to its lower compression. thanks! i always love having my logic beat out failing logic like yours.

But the whole reason your making the comparison is wrong! Te author of this thread did not ask why does honda's f22b2 2.2L motor make basicly the same power as my 2.2L EJ22? NO! He asked why a SPECIFIC, smaller displacement motor made more power than his 2.2L.

You just showed him that two engines with the same displacement can have roughly the same power. Good job, that wasnt his question, and that was never before discussed in this post. This guy wanted to know why the 1.8 makes more power than a 2.2. Yes two 2.2 motors can be almost identical in bhp. But they can also be 100hp apart. EVERY MOTOR IS DIFFERENT! Noone asked you to compare two similarly displaced motors, this was a specific comparison the of two motors the author mentioned to further increase his knowledge, it had nothing to do with a f22b2, a 4g64 or any other motor.

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hites

the stupid in this thread is gettin a lil too high, so ill try and steer things back to where they should have been in the first place.

firstly, your b18c/ej22e comparo is just wrong.

How can you tell someone their comparrison was wrong?!?! HE'S THE ONE WHO ASKED THE QUESTION! Thats like telling someone their wrong cause they like Mountain Dew. He wanted to compare the b18c and the ej22, you can't tell him he's wrong, moron. And how the hell is the thread getting "high"? Every single post made was valid and helpful except maybe that 8 valve sohc post. I mean seriously, are you always so stupid or is today a special occasion?

Zac86 · 08-18-2008, 03:03 PM

Sorry guys for causing trouble but thanks for the rest of you for clearing this up for me, makes sense now

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 03:17 PM

I'm glad things were cleared up for ya.

Zac86 · 08-18-2008, 04:43 PM

so lets say I wanted to get a higher redline and better flowing heads, what direction would I have to head into to? Getting my heads ported or doing a hybrid build like getting EJ25 heads?

Chocoholic005 · 08-18-2008, 05:11 PM

The sohc heads would flow better, you could get a port and polish on your current heads which would help, maybe some oversized valves. Since you are the 2.2L you can probably up your redline as you are now and be pretty safe, however you're gonna need to tune for that higher rpm to make better power.

Zac86 · 08-18-2008, 05:37 PM

so my heads are fine, I just need to get them ported? What about my intake manifold?

Matt Monson · 08-18-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocoholic005

The sohc heads would flow better, you could get a port and polish on your current heads which would help, maybe some oversized valves. Since you are the 2.2L you can probably up your redline as you are now and be pretty safe, however you're gonna need to tune for that higher rpm to make better power.

Read more, post less. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. This sounds like generic boilerplate from car talk and guys who don't know anything about the Ej22E engine.

Zac86,
Do a search for the NA white power paper. Read the section on the high compression frankenstein as well as Delta Cams.

You can swap in a complete Ej25 for what a port and polish job would cost you. Bigger valves would be a waste of time and money. You cannot raise your redline easily. It's electronically controlled and there's not an easy fix on your car.

ballitch · 08-18-2008, 10:20 PM

EJ25 shortblock swap ftw.

I did that along with delta cams and an EL header, no dyno #'s, but alot more power than stock for sure. Ya the EJ22 heads dont flow as well as the EJ25 heads do, but you can make decent power and still have alot of fun with the car.

Not to mention they arent that expensive to buy used.

~Josh~

formula91 · 08-19-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Read more, post less. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. This sounds like generic boilerplate from car talk and guys who don't know anything about the Ej22E engine.

Zac86,
Do a search for the NA white power paper. Read the section on the high compression frankenstein as well as Delta Cams.

You can swap in a complete Ej25 for what a port and polish job would cost you. Bigger valves would be a waste of time and money. You cannot raise your redline easily. It's electronically controlled and there's not an easy fix on your car.

+1 Frankenmotor, you have the engine to do it relatively cheap. Your stock ecu + reflash (I don't think RomRaider does it... yet) will get you there. You'll have a High Compression beast.

Chocoholic005 · 08-19-2008, 01:43 PM

What makes you guys think he wants to swap his entire shortblock to get this power?

Back Road Runner · 08-19-2008, 01:46 PM

Zac86, do you understand the concept of power band?

HP and TQ numbers are simply that, just single numbers at a single point over the entire rev band. In this sense, the numbers themselves are pretty meaningless without knowing why there are what they are.

HP = Torque x RPM / 5252

That means torque is hp, just shaped along the rpm range. Torque is good. Torque is always good. HP can be deceiving. High rpm and a highish HP rating can mask a relatively low torque value as well as tell nothing about the lower rev range that you will be in 99% of the time.

Area under the curve is what matters!!!

Subarus have relatively high toque numbers. They simply don't have high rpms. Also because they are mid rpm oriented, they produce a lot of midrange power but fade off near redline. This fade off in the high rpm range yields lowish hp numbers, despite relatively high torque output. There's more there than you "see" when looking at these simple HP and TQ numbers. As well, the Honda engines overstate their performance with their high rpm focus. You see high HP numbers but don't see the major lack of toque.

08-17-2008, 11:37 PM	#1
Zac86 Scooby Newbie Member#: 136919 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: North Pole Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon ABP	Why does my EJ22 make so little power? Lets say compared to a honda b18c engine. We both have the same 9.7:1 Compression ratios iirc yet he has smaller displacement and makes 170bhp compared to my 135bhp. Can someone explain this or is this like comparing apples to oranges? * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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08-17-2008, 11:51 PM	#2
ballitch Scooby Specialist Member#: 74907 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: salem, OR Vehicle: 98 cam'd EJ251 Wrx Tranny,slowr than ish	He may make 170 hp, but only 100-110 ft. lbs. of torque. Whereas the EJ22 makes 135 hp, and about 140 ft. lbs. of torque. I know nothing about honda motors, so I'll assume that motor has v-tech, maybe only on the intake cam, but I have no idea. It is pretty common knowledge that v-tech and all other various forms of it add power higher in the rpm range, I guess that is where his extra ponies come from. ~Josh~

08-17-2008, 11:54 PM	#3
jamal Scooby Guru Member#: 71875 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Montana Vehicle: 98 2.5GT my wheels fit	they rev higher. tq x rpm = hp

08-17-2008, 11:57 PM	#4
phoenix1112 Scooby Specialist Member#: 93309 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Specialist whaaaaaaaaaat??? Vehicle: 1999 OBS Black	Better flowing heads as well I'd assume.

08-18-2008, 01:36 AM	#5
kos Scooby Specialist Member#: 118334 Join Date: Jun 2006 Chapter/Region: SWIC Location: attacking apexes Vehicle: #555 2006 / 2005 S-AWD+TT2 WRX / RS Daily	less parasitic loss as well.

08-18-2008, 02:15 AM	#6
Chocoholic005 * Banned * Member#: 179736 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Big Rapids, MI Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT RBP	Its a little bit like comparing apples to oranges in a sense. Ok to compare we'll use your 2.2L vs the 1.8L honda. Your motor is a lower reving motor, horizontally opposed, which is good for torque, but not so good for horsepower, less efficent to make it run compared to the i4 with only one head. the larger displacement makes torque better, but won't rev as high has the lower displacement with a shorter stroke. In general on N/A motors with 6 cyl or less, higher rpm makes more power. Those are the cold hard facts that are directly related to the size and style of the engine. Now the parts you cannot tell by pure numbers are the specifics of each motor. The flow of the heads, bore, stroke, weight of internals/efficeniceny (spelling is wrong i know), camshaft gind, tune, and smaller factors like operating temperature, lubrication, engine layout and drive type will make huge difference in power output. Not to mention the intake, headers and exhaust restrictions also effect power greatly. If you got more agressive cams, headers, intake and exhaust with a decent tune you'd be making more than 170 horsepower and you would have the extra torque that the vtec honda lacks. There are so many factors that go into the output of a motor, comparing any two motors of different sizes or styles is exactly like comparing apples to oranges. My eclipse's 250 horsepower v6 makes the same power some early corvette 327 (5.4L) v8s made. Every motor is different

08-18-2008, 06:03 AM	#7
WRXbrother Scooby Newbie Member#: 141182 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Michigan/Illinois Vehicle: 08 Impreza Hatch Silver	The Honda Motor has 16 valves adn V-teck. That simply gives the airflow it needs to make that kind of power. Your Ej22 is a SOHC 8 valve engine designed for off roading and towing capabilities in a much bigger car. Race him on gravel! or rain, or snow, from a dig! Other than a sunny day at a paved track, you'll win.

08-18-2008, 06:43 AM	#8
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: SAUL'S Motorsports Vehicle: 96L Most Over- Developed Beater	All 4cyl EJ motors are 16v. 8v motors went when they stopped making the EA series motors. Way too many differences in engine design to try and compare them. Jay

08-18-2008, 12:25 PM	#9
yarrgh Scooby Specialist Member#: 80465 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Aurora, CO Vehicle: 2001 2.5RS Black Diamond Pearl	don't forget that your awd sucks up some power too

08-18-2008, 12:54 PM	#10
Hites Scooby Specialist Member#: 138997 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Belle Center, OH Vehicle: 0000 Nothing	the stupid in this thread is gettin a lil too high, so ill try and steer things back to where they should have been in the first place. firstly, your b18c/ej22e comparo is just wrong. the b18c has vtec, is dohc, and has less cubes. what we should be comparing the ej22e is to hondas workhorse engine of the same year (lets pick 1997), the f22b2 that can be found in the common accord LX. check out the hp and tq: 145hp @ 5500rpm 147tq @ 4500rpm now compare to the 97 impreza: 137hp @ 5400rpm 145tq @ 4000rpm see? theyre pretty similar.

08-18-2008, 01:15 PM	#12
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: SAUL'S Motorsports Vehicle: 96L Most Over- Developed Beater	C'mon....the thread was a goner before it had a chance. Jay.

08-18-2008, 03:03 PM	#16
Zac86 Scooby Newbie Member#: 136919 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: North Pole Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon ABP	Sorry guys for causing trouble but thanks for the rest of you for clearing this up for me, makes sense now

08-18-2008, 03:17 PM	#17
Chocoholic005 * Banned * Member#: 179736 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Big Rapids, MI Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT RBP	I'm glad things were cleared up for ya.

08-18-2008, 04:43 PM	#18
Zac86 Scooby Newbie Member#: 136919 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: North Pole Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon ABP	so lets say I wanted to get a higher redline and better flowing heads, what direction would I have to head into to? Getting my heads ported or doing a hybrid build like getting EJ25 heads?

08-18-2008, 05:11 PM	#19
Chocoholic005 * Banned * Member#: 179736 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Big Rapids, MI Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT RBP	The sohc heads would flow better, you could get a port and polish on your current heads which would help, maybe some oversized valves. Since you are the 2.2L you can probably up your redline as you are now and be pretty safe, however you're gonna need to tune for that higher rpm to make better power.

08-18-2008, 05:37 PM	#20
Zac86 Scooby Newbie Member#: 136919 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: North Pole Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon ABP	so my heads are fine, I just need to get them ported? What about my intake manifold?

08-18-2008, 10:20 PM	#22
ballitch Scooby Specialist Member#: 74907 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: salem, OR Vehicle: 98 cam'd EJ251 Wrx Tranny,slowr than ish	EJ25 shortblock swap ftw. I did that along with delta cams and an EL header, no dyno #'s, but alot more power than stock for sure. Ya the EJ22 heads dont flow as well as the EJ25 heads do, but you can make decent power and still have alot of fun with the car. Not to mention they arent that expensive to buy used. ~Josh~

08-19-2008, 01:43 PM	#24
Chocoholic005 * Banned * Member#: 179736 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Big Rapids, MI Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT RBP	What makes you guys think he wants to swap his entire shortblock to get this power?

08-19-2008, 01:46 PM	#25
Back Road Runner Scooby Guru Member#: 60082 Join Date: Apr 2004 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Minnesota Vehicle: 2004 Forester STI Silver	Zac86, do you understand the concept of power band? HP and TQ numbers are simply that, just single numbers at a single point over the entire rev band. In this sense, the numbers themselves are pretty meaningless without knowing why there are what they are. HP = Torque x RPM / 5252 That means torque is hp, just shaped along the rpm range. Torque is good. Torque is always good. HP can be deceiving. High rpm and a highish HP rating can mask a relatively low torque value as well as tell nothing about the lower rev range that you will be in 99% of the time. Area under the curve is what matters!!! Subarus have relatively high toque numbers. They simply don't have high rpms. Also because they are mid rpm oriented, they produce a lot of midrange power but fade off near redline. This fade off in the high rpm range yields lowish hp numbers, despite relatively high torque output. There's more there than you "see" when looking at these simple HP and TQ numbers. As well, the Honda engines overstate their performance with their high rpm focus. You see high HP numbers but don't see the major lack of toque.