Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 1, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
New England Subaru Impreza Club
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Chapters > New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-2001, 12:06 AM   #26
bill harvey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Aisle 3 next to the nuts
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy Gt wagon
Garnet red pearl

Post

kris i also found when i was out at bondurant school for the blind. that you need to find the right pair of shoes that you own.. notice that i always wear my low cut hiking boots when i auto-x.. just because the shape of the sole makes it easier for me than my running shoes.. you want flat soles. hope this helps. but you have a WRX thse are supposed to be fast in fast out, no? learn to pitch it on the tar and you will be much happier plus it looks cooler than ultra smooth faster than everyone KC techniques...
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
bill harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 05:57 AM   #27
ttoversteer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 465
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut
Vehicle:
2012 GTI
Gray

Post

Marc, not quite.

If you are using threshold braking, you are at the limit, which means that if you brake harder you will lock a wheel and in your situation will probably spin the car.

You are actually thinking about trailing throttle oversteer (hehe..TTOversteer.) If you trail the brakes into the turn, meaning that max braking is done before the turn with less and less brake pressure applied up to the turn apex, the car will rotate; hopefully in a nice, smooth, controlled manner. At the apex is where you want to roll off the brakes and onto the gas, then apply more and more gas until the end of the turn where you should be at full throttle.

Typically, you want to have your shifting done BEFORE the turn, or in as much of a straigh line as possible, as shifting during the turn will upset the delicate balance of the car... I believe Paul said above that it's important not to upset the suspension in any way. He's right.

All this needs to be done in one smooth motion. There are no sudden movements (Ideally.)

Also in your situation you mention rev matching at 3k? I'll asume that's just an example. You can rev match at any rpm (up to redline), and in a racing situation will probably match at the high end of the dial.

Drive smooth
-Tom
ttoversteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 09:23 AM   #28
paultg
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 437
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Londonderry, NH
Vehicle:
'91 Miata MX5 (Red)
'09 Impreza OBS (Blk/Gry)

Post

Quote:
Typically, you want to have your shifting done BEFORE the turn, or in as much of a straigh line as possible, as shifting during the turn will upset the delicate balance of the car... I believe Paul said above that it's important not to upset the suspension in any way. He's right.
Hee hee..
I still can't do any of this though. I spun my car at the ice race on an upshift from 1st to 2nd! Ha..

Paul G.
paultg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 10:27 AM   #29
ttoversteer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 465
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut
Vehicle:
2012 GTI
Gray

Post

That's okay, Paul. We all know you just got carried away with the happy pedal.
ttoversteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 01:32 PM   #30
kevinsUBARU
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2263
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Funky Kingston, NY
Vehicle:
2012 Impreza Sport

Post

Wait a second....you can do clutchless shifting!? Not that I have a manual...but that sounds cool!
kevinsUBARU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 04:35 PM   #31
ttoversteer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 465
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut
Vehicle:
2012 GTI
Gray

Post

KevinSubaru: Yeah, you can shift without a clutch. But if you screw it up, you'll destroy your tranny. I've tried it on a couple of occasions successfully, but I've also tried it and got the irksome: CRUNCH!

I guess it comes in handy in certain rally situations, but I'm really good at heel and toe so I don't know that it'll be an advantage for me. Plus, I'm not very good at left foot braking yet. (I guess I need to go to rally school!)

Drive smooth
-Tom
ttoversteer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 07:41 PM   #32
webkris
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 70
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Long Beach, CA
Vehicle:
I sold WRX to buy
Dodge Neon Rally Car

Lightbulb

Ooh left foot braking - now that I can do. Since I had the slushbox, I learned to modulate the brake pedal with my left foot - instead of just mashing it, like a clutch in manuver. Wayne can chime in here to - as we were both practicing it at the Ice Races. Helps curb understeer, wheelspin, and a host of other things when used properly. Especially in a low friction environment.

Practice daily by approaching a stop, clutch in and drop car in neutral. Brake with the left foot. - It feels strange at first but you want to get used to the sensation. (don't try this at first in traffic )When you can smoothly stop the car with the left foot - you will then feel comfortable applying a small ammount of braking force while modulating power through turns. The last thing you want to do is make the car lurch forward when you begin to lft foot brake... Smooth.

It's a constant dance of oversteer and understeer - steering and countersteering that allows rally drivers to be in control. While they are riding the edge of that control. Anticipate the car.

"The force is strong in this one."

Now back to the original topic - I'm starting to get it. I did it correctly 4 times tonight while picking up some groceries, and messed it up twice. If I position my foot far right under the gas - instead of between the gas and brake, I can brake and blip. It's my clutch timing that's throwing me off - so I've been learing where to rev match the car before doing a heel toe.

Again - the clutch for me is not an automatic respoce yet. I know how to do it - but I have to concentrate on it.

"rex on.... rex off...."
*bow. "I am ready master."

- Kris
webkris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2001, 08:45 PM   #33
Pilot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 513
Join Date: Nov 1999
Post

If ti makes you feel any better when I taught myself how to heel/toe double D it took me nearly two straight months to get it right and two more years to get proficient at it.

patience kristofer san, let the force flow through you
Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2001, 10:46 AM   #34
dirk.gecko
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 3141
Join Date: Dec 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: De Pere, WI
Vehicle:
2007 Scion tC
Blue or something

Post

Mmm, clutchless shifting.

I've done that with all the manuals I've owned. Of course, none of them had any serious horsepower.

Did that on my motorcycle, too. Fiiiiirst gear (snick) second-gear (snick) third! (snick) fourth! (snick) fifth! (snicker-snicker-tickety-tickey) Aw crap.

When your bike produces max power @ 9,000k and you upshift @ 10,200k, guess where your next gearshift puts you:

Yep. 9 grand. I stripped the 5th gear dogs right off. Didn't help that Honda Sabres had badly milled 2nd & 5th...

Dirk

PS: So yeah. You can do it, just don't make a habit of it at full throttle.

[This message has been edited by dirk.gecko (edited March 24, 2001).]
dirk.gecko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2001, 03:33 PM   #35
Xio
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3805
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Paris, FR / Houston, TX
Vehicle:
2011 STi Sedan SWP
2011 Outback ABP

Post

You might try what I am doing. I have 2k miles on my new 01 Coupe, and one autocross. I learned to double-clutch the car because of this huge hill on the way to work. Entering the hill at the bottom in 5th gear at 70mph makes the engine bog and you are at 2k rpms by the top of the hill at 50mph or so. Next, I tried shifting into 4th as I was halfway up the hill. This would allow me to maintain speed better, although I'd lose a bit during the shift. The problem was this would produce a huge *JERK* as the driveline reengaged, even when I tried going easy on the clutch and throttle, due to the steep hill I guess.
So, I learned to shift into neutral, engage clutch, blip throttle, reengage the clutch and shift to 4th right at the bottom to climb the hill. Double clutching before entering the hill allows the driveline to reengage silky smooth, and since the revs want to match for 4th gear at about 4200rpms, I'm right in the meat of the powerband and can actually accelerate up the hill if I like.
I can now double-clutch downshift to any gear (1st still a bit troublesome ) so adding heel/toe should hopefully be easy.

Added note: Some of you might find double-clutch downshifting useful for dropping into go-fast mode when a Honda rolls up next to ya. It's smoother on the driveline and they get to hear the one warning growl when you blip throttle before you disappear in front of them.
Xio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 11:29 AM   #36
Nitro Soda
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 19299
Join Date: May 2002
Vehicle:
1997 Impreza Wagon

Default

i sometimes shift clutchless from 2nd into 1st as i'm rolling up to a light or stop sigh. this is obviously not for performance reasons...it's more of a lazyness issue but if done right it will slip right in to gear... i've pulled off 4th into 3rd pretty well too...

i'm still a bit confused when to reengage the cluth (the 1st time) when double Din'. i only double D when the car won't go into reverse
Nitro Soda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 12:13 PM   #37
sorbee711
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14259
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Vehicle:
OT, we're a-holes
b/c we are bored at work

Smile

I learned heal - toe by going to skip barber. I recommend that to everyone.

Also I used to be able to go 1-2-3-4-5 in my Ford Pickup w/out clutch after getting used to it. I'm used to my integra now also, but its worth a lot more than $3500... so i won't be risking it.
sorbee711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 12:18 PM   #38
DustinR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8264
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Burlington, VT
Vehicle:
2001 Impreza 2.5 RS
95 Impreza 1.8 Coupe

Default

WARNING: this thread has entirely too much content for NESIC



So me and my size 9 shoes just get the heal() right over and tap the gas. Ever since my first autox where i attempted it and had the instructor look over at me like what the hell was that i decided i had to practice. So for the last month or so every time i think of it when coming to a stop i heel toe all the way into first. I know its really excessive but it gets me the most practice. Now im starting to use it approaching corners on my spirited drives. Once again its a little excessive cause im not really going that fast (usually 5 to 10 over) but it gets me in the habit and gets me more practice. with that i can't wait for the next autox to see if i can sucessfully use what i have hopefully learned, under pressure. Once i have that going well im going to attack the left foot breaking beast. That will prolly be more interesting seeing as my left foot has the coordination of an elephant on ice. (read if your approaching a light behind a silver rs in a couple weeks...... back off)

as far a clutchless shifting... it hurts me to think of it. I know there are those out there that can do it. but they are a whole lot better than me at something and i don't think i would ever try.

NitroSoda: its actually quite a simple matter(double clutching) so don't let yourself think that its complicated. to make it REALLY simple you have three rotating pieces in your car Your engine, your transmition and your drive shaft. they rest in that order. Between the engine and the tranny is the clutch and between the tranny and the drive shaft is the shifter. The basic idea is that when you attach any of these pieces you want them to be going the same speed. So say you are rolling down the road your drive shaft is a given you can't change the speed of that but you want to down shift so you take the car out of gear(press the clutch shift into neutral and release the clutch) Thats the easy part. at this point your engine and tranny are connected but your drive shaft is not. Now you rev the engine till it is going about the same seed as it would be if you were in the gear that you want to be in then you press the clutch shift into gear and release the clutch. if this is done right the shifter it self should go into gear faster and easier(because the syncros have to do less work) and the car won't jerk around because everything is already moving at the correct speed. hope that helped rather than confuse you as much as it did me as i re read it

-Dustin
DustinR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 01:13 PM   #39
jamz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8725
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland MAINE
Vehicle:
2013 Black Company
Annalist

Default

IggDawg is cool
jamz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 02:00 PM   #40
Jack
Add Lightness
Moderator
 
Member#: 13699
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Vehicle:
2007 Lotus Elise
(From General)

Default

There are 3 ways (that I know of) to heel and toe downshift.

1: Right foot on brake and roll it over to the gas to blip it.
2: Right ball of foot on brake and use heel to blip the gas.
3: Right heel on brake and use the toe to blip the gas.

A student of mine at NHIS in group 2 was using #1, which seems very common. He commented that he had a really hard time with pedal placement on his BMW 3 series...especially in turn 3. A light bulb went off in my head. Fortunately, I was wearing sunglasses.....oops. Anyways, I commented that I have used #3 technique from day 1 for some unknown reason. I usually have to drive a student's car first at a school and have yet to find any car that I've been unable to use this technique with. From a Shelby GT350 to my old CRX, it works everywhere for me. I'll also add that I use some very small shoes. Reebok walking shoes now. I think my karate shoes or wrestling shoes would also work great. I also have size 8, so can't comment on the big sizes.

I am very scared of coming into turn 3, doing the downshift and slipping off the brake using #1 technique. For me, being very, very solid on the brake pedal is of prime concern.

Also on double clutch heel and toe downshift. I do this, but not in competition. The double clutch portion saves the synchros in the tranny. The rev matching keeps wheel speed and engine speed similar when you let the clutch back out. I'm not Mario Andretti, so if I'm on the clock, another chance to botch a shift isn't going to help my time.

I like this thread here. NE seems to have a more intelligent crew.

jack
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 04:04 PM   #41
jsnow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14335
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Planet Motorcycle
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by webkris

Now - next question... Do you have to match revs if you double clutch?? Still need to blip the throttle? I'm a little confused about this technical part.
If the revs aren't matched, it will never be smooth.

As for heel-toeing, my feet are 10.5" and I have a hard time understanding how it would be more difficult with bigger feet, assuming your feet increase in width proportionally with their length.

Heel-toe is indeed a misonomer, at least for everyone I've spoken too. For me it's left-side-of-foot and right-side-of-foot. With bigger feet, I'd think that those contact patches would increase and bridge the gap more easily.

And lastly, I don't grok this double-clutching thing. Seems like wasted motion to me, and doesn't produce any affect that I can feel. (Except maybe for making reverse less argumentative.)
jsnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 04:31 PM   #42
touch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12678
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Default

...since this thread was started a couple months ago now, we can ask...

how's it going kris? ...getting much faster i assume.
touch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:40 PM   #43
jamz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8725
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland MAINE
Vehicle:
2013 Black Company
Annalist

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jsnow



And lastly, I don't grok this double-clutching thing. Seems like wasted motion to me, and doesn't produce any affect that I can feel. (Except maybe for making reverse less argumentative.)
I actually do it quite a bit going into first- I have no problem shifting from second to first at 20 MPH by double clutching- it makes a less-precise rev match work more easily- i.e. double clutch+rev-match more or less.
jamz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 11:28 AM   #44
Nitro Soda
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 19299
Join Date: May 2002
Vehicle:
1997 Impreza Wagon

Default Thanks!!

yep that clears it up. i've been rev matching for ever but i never really understood the double d theory's... so thanks to Dustin and everyone else as they all helped me out!
Nitro Soda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 01:03 PM   #45
Siper2
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1134
Join Date: Mar 2000
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Dillsburg, PA
Vehicle:
2007 BMW 328xi wagon
Silver

Default

My feet don't seem to be able to twist enough, without rotating my hip in the seat, and that obviously ain't good.

I have very low mobility in my whole ankle/foot joint. Really weird.

Gotta be a way I can do this, though.

-S2-
Siper2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 07:29 AM   #46
memosrex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 378653
Join Date: Jan 2014
Default

thanks Tom and Rez. your tips are great. i wear a size 15 so its a real pain in the ass.
memosrex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 07:57 AM   #47
Loyale93
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 91347
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Moscow, Russia
Vehicle:
'13 XV Crosstrek,
1050 Triumph Speed Triple

Default

I think... That is officially the largest gap for bringing a thread back from the dead!!

CONGRATS!!
Loyale93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 08:18 AM   #48
vogun16
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 93206
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: somerville, MA
Vehicle:
02 WRX....
JDM V7/8/9 RA-R Rotated

Default

My hat is off to this guy and his elite search skills. It puts most of the members to shame that can't find a thread from yesterday.
vogun16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 08:45 AM   #49
Thatskipkid
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 362399
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: South Central CT
Vehicle:
04 STI
Satin Black

Default

Epic bump lol
Thatskipkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 09:09 AM   #50
Dayglow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 211395
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Greenville
Vehicle:
2010 Impreza 5-door
Paprika Pearl!

Default

Dang what a bump.
Dayglow is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
heel-toe shifting rocketeer Newbies & FAQs 39 01-27-2010 02:25 PM
Big Turbo Need Help WjRgX Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 1 04-14-2004 04:36 PM
So how do you heel-toe shift? That Guy General Community 18 04-27-2003 09:10 PM
Explaination of heel-toe shifting JGard General Forum Archive 23 01-19-2001 08:58 PM
benefits of heel-toe shifting Racer X General Forum Archive 6 01-19-2001 08:06 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.