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Old 05-31-2012, 02:36 PM   #426
dirtslayer
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Seems to be the lash between gears that widens and therefore cause more force applied to a smaller area. Now what is the cause of the shaft alignment moving is the question.
Seems to be case flex
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:09 PM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtslayer View Post
Seems to be the lash between gears that widens and therefore cause more force applied to a smaller area. Now what is the cause of the shaft alignment moving is the question.
Seems to be case flex
Question in red, answer in green. The more force that is applied through the trans causes that shaft to move. When that shaft moves it spreads the teeth apart, when the teeth spread apart, their is less surface area contact and then gears break.......this is what I have heard in the past from speaking with people who know about subaru transmissions. Take it for what its worth... dont launch or white knuckle shift/slam gears and u should be fine. Transmission break because of users, not themselves.
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:17 PM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05

Question in red, answer in green. The more force that is applied through the trans causes that shaft to move. When that shaft moves it spreads the teeth apart, when the teeth spread apart, their is less surface area contact and then gears break.......this is what I have heard in the past from speaking with people who know about subaru transmissions. Take it for what its worth... dont launch or white knuckle shift/slam gears and u should be fine. Transmission break because of users, not themselves.
Correct. But what the bracing is designed to do is keep the case/bearing cradles more indexed which keeps the shaft straight and gears meshed.

So it could work.

I'm worried even tho I don't slam shifts and no launches. 400tq is love/hate
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:30 PM   #429
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^^^^400 wheel Tq= a sti 6 speed or a PPG gearset, not a "I hope my stock 5 speed will last" but more like it will for sure......if ur gonna build your car to be that fast, u have to think of more than just motor. 400 whtq will snap teeth during normal acceleration man. Good luck man.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:32 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
Question in red, answer in green. The more force that is applied through the trans causes that shaft to move. When that shaft moves it spreads the teeth apart, when the teeth spread apart, their is less surface area contact and then gears break.......this is what I have heard in the past from speaking with people who know about subaru transmissions. Take it for what its worth... dont launch or white knuckle shift/slam gears and u should be fine. Transmission break because of users, not themselves.
but we're talking about preventing the case from breaking, not the gears.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:53 PM   #431
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You do know that a helical gear is much stronger than a straight cut gear right? That's why the ppg's are successful in holding much more power/torque in the 5spd's. The problem with a helical gear is that as well as transferring power, there is also side loading generated from the slight angle of the gears when they are meshing. This is what creates the case flex. Once the case is flexing and its arms t-rexing.... The clearances of the gear mesh go out the window.

It gets more complicated as to why a helical ppg gearset is stronger than an OEM. Pressure angles, tooth radi and so on...

But making sure that the side loading from a helical gearset doesn't cause case "flex" is one of the best things you can do, aside from going straight cuts. That's why Moore performance is offering this product, its not the end all be all of transmissions, but an affordable compromise that will be applicable to more of the market share than an all out straight cut dogged gear set.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:55 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes

but we're talking about preventing the case from breaking, not the gears.
This product is to increase the power holding capabilities of your gears, not to prevent the transmission case from cracking, even though that is a by-product of its design. You by doing one, you acccomplish the other.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:25 PM   #433
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Agreed to all.

By any chance, does anyone have the bolt specs to be used?
I need to buy some high grade case bolts and make my plates up.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:19 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
I have spoken to the guys at AndrewTech and they have said the case flex is nonsense. But whatever makes u sleep better at night
Hey there are smarter more experience people out there I'm just saying that the case could flex without splitting the case at the bolt together seam.

I make no clam to have info that the case does flex.

R-
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:11 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
You do know that a helical gear is much stronger than a straight cut gear right? That's why the ppg's are successful in holding much more power/torque in the 5spd's. The problem with a helical gear is that as well as transferring power, there is also side loading generated from the slight angle of the gears when they are meshing. This is what creates the case flex. Once the case is flexing and its arms t-rexing.... The clearances of the gear mesh go out the window.

It gets more complicated as to why a helical ppg gearset is stronger than an OEM. Pressure angles, tooth radi and so on...

But making sure that the side loading from a helical gearset doesn't cause case "flex" is one of the best things you can do, aside from going straight cuts. That's why Moore performance is offering this product, its not the end all be all of transmissions, but an affordable compromise that will be applicable to more of the market share than an all out straight cut dogged gear set.

Buy what u want man, but ppg's are offered in helicle and straight cut. The ppg straight cut are stronger (better tooth engagement) than the helicle. It also comes down to what material the gears are made of. its like comparing stock pistons to forged pistons

And yes their are probably smarter people, but I would not knock the people and products at AndrewTech or PPG. They know what they are doing.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:16 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
Buy what u want man, but ppg's are offered in helicle and straight cut. The ppg straight cut are stronger (better tooth engagement) than the helicle. It also comes down to what material the gears are made of. its like comparing stock pistons to forged pistons

And yes their are probably smarter people, but I would not knock the people and products at AndrewTech or PPG. They know what they are doing.
no, you buy you want. I know how this stuff works.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:57 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
no, you buy you want. I know how this stuff works.
Wishful thinking never hurt anyone, but do u have a BOV and cold air intake on ur car as well......cause I heard those do wonders also
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:51 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamrock 05

Wishful thinking never hurt anyone, but do u have a BOV and cold air intake on ur car as well......cause I heard those do wonders also
Lollollol
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
Wishful thinking never hurt anyone, but do u have a BOV and cold air intake on ur car as well......cause I heard those do wonders also
"the use of helical gears is indicated when the application involves high speeds, large power transmission, or where noise abatement is important. The speed is considered to be high when the pitch line velocity exceeds 25 m/s.[7]
A disadvantage of helical gears is a resultant thrust along the axis of the gear"

"Strength: For same tooth size (module) and equivalent width, helical gears can handle more load than spur gears because the helical gear tooth is effectively larger since it is diagonally positioned."

"Helical gearing is machined to have angled teeth, then hardened and ground to achieve an efficient gear mesh. The teeth angle enables the gears to gradually mesh. Thus, two or three teeth of each gear are always in contact with other gears. This configuration lessens the load on each tooth and creates a smooth transition of forces from one tooth to the next. The result: less vibration, wear, noise, and a longer life.
Helical gear reducers come in many shapes, sizes, and configurations, helping you eliminate high wear and high maintenance parts such as belts, pulleys, chains, and sprockets.
There are two common quality indicators in gearing—high noise and vibration—which result in low precision and limited life.
Rotating machines that generate high noise and high vibration can have any number of quality issues. Rotating components may not be balanced properly, which causes vibration. Mating components may be machined to tolerances that are not precise regarding perpendicularity, concentricity, and true position. Or, components may not be rigid enough, flexing under load, which can result in misalignment. "
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:37 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
This product is to increase the power holding capabilities of your gears, not to prevent the transmission case from cracking, even though that is a by-product of its design. You by doing one, you acccomplish the other.
and here i thought it was the other way around. intredasting.

either way i want one.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:39 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post
"the use of helical gears is indicated when the application involves high speeds, large power transmission, or where noise abatement is important. The speed is considered to be high when the pitch line velocity exceeds 25 m/s.[7]
A disadvantage of helical gears is a resultant thrust along the axis of the gear"

"Strength: For same tooth size (module) and equivalent width, helical gears can handle more load than spur gears because the helical gear tooth is effectively larger since it is diagonally positioned."

"Helical gearing is machined to have angled teeth, then hardened and ground to achieve an efficient gear mesh. The teeth angle enables the gears to gradually mesh. Thus, two or three teeth of each gear are always in contact with other gears. This configuration lessens the load on each tooth and creates a smooth transition of forces from one tooth to the next. The result: less vibration, wear, noise, and a longer life.
Helical gear reducers come in many shapes, sizes, and configurations, helping you eliminate high wear and high maintenance parts such as belts, pulleys, chains, and sprockets.
There are two common quality indicators in gearing—high noise and vibration—which result in low precision and limited life.
Rotating machines that generate high noise and high vibration can have any number of quality issues. Rotating components may not be balanced properly, which causes vibration. Mating components may be machined to tolerances that are not precise regarding perpendicularity, concentricity, and true position. Or, components may not be rigid enough, flexing under load, which can result in misalignment. "
all this said... why would they even bother to offer straight cuts then? i mean helical would be both stronger AND quieter if what you're saying is true... making straight cuts inferior in every way except thrust pressure.
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:51 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettner12 View Post

"Strength: For same tooth size (module) and equivalent width, helical gears can handle more load than spur gears because the helical gear tooth is effectively larger since it is diagonally positioned."

Rotating components may not be balanced properly, which causes vibration. Mating components may be machined to tolerances that are not precise regarding perpendicularity, concentricity, and true position. Or, components may not be rigid enough, flexing under load, which can result in misalignment. "
With those sentences together (start and finish of your post), wouldn't it make sense as to why the straight gears have a higher life expectancy with them having a better chance of meshing when rotating?

It also makes sense that they are better when most heavy machinery (lathes) use straight cut gears rather than helical. Watching videos of straight cut gears in a wrx should explain why subaru wouldn't mass produce a product that sounds like a jet taking off all the time.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:15 PM   #443
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All this talk between the pros and cons of helical vs straight cut is pointless... basically it boils down to this, the wrx 5 speed case is ****, it flexes so much that the gears should be straight cut if you want to hold any decent power for long periods, whereas in the sti 6 speed or better designed transmissions they should use helical since they are stronger with a non-flexing case.

Discussing this any further is just wasting time.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #444
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Just to update everyone, we have hardware, we have sets that have gone out and here's a pic from a customer that did his install last week.



I've contacted the 6-10 group of guys about the plates that are ready to go (please check emails) and the remaining plates are ready to ship next week after we return from Wicked Big Meet. Keep eyes out for emails and pm's!
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:32 PM   #445
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Are you selling any of these @ WBM?
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:20 AM   #446
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Are you selling any of these @ WBM?
We will be taking orders at WBM. Our first priority is to fulfill the group buy orders, but we will have a demo set on hand for viewing, etc.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:02 AM   #447
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When are these going to be available?

Ian @ Performance Auto Solutions
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:16 PM   #448
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Can this be installed with the tranny in place or will you have to drop the transmission to permit installation of fasteners, etc....
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:23 AM   #449
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you'll have to drop it.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:15 PM   #450
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Do you know for a fact the transmission needs to be dropped?

Any posts I have seen on this product give the supposition that it needs to be dropped, but nothing that it absolutely has to be dropped.

From what I've seen, the only ones who have installed this so far already had the transmission out for other reasons. Even Ryan Moore said in the Group Buy thread that the engineers believe that the transmission needs to be dropped, not that is has to be dropped.

I've looked closely and it looks like I may be able to do this on my WRX without moving the transmission. I won't know exactly until I try it, but there appears to be enough room to remove the bolts completely out, and re-install.
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