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Old 10-30-2008, 11:19 AM   #76
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Trying to get the members to help advise a target price is not vending, it's doing research.

jhargis- let me know when you're ready and we can talk via phone about the details.

-Dylan @ DS1
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Last edited by DS1; 10-30-2008 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:12 PM   #77
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Sounds to me like Dylan could be interested. And with as many transmission as that guy builds... he'd be somone good to deal with on vending.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:30 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by DS1 Motorsports View Post
Trying to get the members to help advise a target price is not vending, it's doing research.

jhargis- let me know when you're ready and we can talk via phone about the details.

-Dylan @ DS1
Looking forward to talking to you.

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Sounds to me like Dylan could be interested. And with as many transmission as that guy builds... he'd be somone good to deal with on vending.
Yup. He seems like a stand-up guy with a solid reputation and good knowledge, plus his posts and opinions on the 5mt are like 99.9% in agreement with my posts and opinions on the subject, so it only makes sense for me to aim at him to be my main distributor .
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:07 PM   #79
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looking good!
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:33 PM   #80
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Thanks. Actually I just finished spraying the pre-production sample that will be in the mail to DS1 shortly. It looks beautiful, I'm really happy with the final build quality. There's no weld spatter and the TIG welds look really pretty. BTW, Dylan will be taking over as far as pictures go once he gets it... so stay tuned.

I've lined up some paint/color options too. Should be available in black, metallic blue pearl (really close to WR blue), metallic silver/red/yellow and maybe a number of other color options depending on demand. Just need to iron out the ordering details with Dylan. I finished his sample in blue pearl, and it looks pretty spiffy. He might be able to help me out with a powder coat option as well, but nothing has been set in stone on that just yet.

I'm also completing a vented/filtered and temperature controlled paint enclosure so that the paint comes out really nice and consistent.
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Old 11-02-2008, 06:18 PM   #81
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...I measured changes of dimension at 7 different spots on the case. One data set was recorded at 230ft/lbs, and a second data set at 300ft/lbs. At stock torque (230ft. lbs continuous load) with 3rd gear engaged, I measured a peak dimensional change of .003" at one spot of the case in relation to the bellhousing. That doesn't sound like much, but the 5mt's gear lash spec is .006" with a tolerance of +/-.001". What this means is that the gears are potentially moving beyond their recommended clearance range even at stock power, they're most certainly wildly beyond the recommended tolerance during a launch or hard shift. I stopped at 300 ft/lbs... The input shaft was twisting so much that I feared for my spare transmission's safety. Remember that this data was recorded with the output shafts completely bound up.

Another interesting tidbit that confirms input shaft flex... At 230 ft/lbs, the shaft twists at least 5 degrees at the clutch in relation to 3rd gear... In other words, with the gear locked in place, the clutch disc is about 5 degrees of rotation ahead of the gear... Think of the swirl pattern on a candy cane. At 300 ft/lbs of input torque the input shaft had moved to about 10 degrees of twist... scary.
Doesn't the fact that the output shafts are bound impact your readings? I mean, when you drive the car, the wheels move... You cant get accurate readings without taking this into consideration, can you? I can remember back to Mechanics of Materials, and axial strain, and you have to compensate for the fact that the shaft is rotating in the same direction as the load you are applying to it, in the real world. 300ft/lbs in this configuration doesn't equal the axial deflection with the trans actually in the car...

It would be nice if this helps to stop launching of the front diff from wheel-hop.

Metrology huh? That sounds like it was a fun major. What kind of stuff were you testing to destruction? I'm doing now what Tom did, but for implantable biomaterials.
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Old 11-02-2008, 10:03 PM   #82
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Absolutely, it has a profound affect on my data. Doesn't have anything to do with accuracy. But it would affect the data set as a whole. As I've mentioned, my test simulated installing the transmission in a car with basically infinite weight... An impossibly bad scenario. The transmission is also not bolted to an engine block... Since Subaru added 4 bellhousing bolt locations in 1998, I'm sure the engine provides substantial support to the case assembly as a whole.

There are tons of shortcomings in the design of this particular test as far as real-world conditions are concerned, I'll admit that. Though the idea behind this study of the case was as a proof of concept, and primarily to see where the weaknesses are. Since I was interested in designing a reinforcement when I started this project, I wanted to know at which locations I should apply reinforcement rather that just blindly bolting chunks of steel here and there. I was also very interested in being able to test the 5mt without the reinforcement as a baseline, and then see if there were any improvements with the reinforcement installed. This was purely a relative data comparison, I didn't really need to find exact figures against a set point away from the transmission under real-world driving conditions with a particularly high precision... Just basically needed to answer 3 questions. Does it flex? Where? And does the reinforcement help?

Any way you look at it though, smoothly applying 230ft./lbs. of continuous torque to the input shaft, even with the output shafts completely bound up is probably nothing close to the kind of force the transmission sees if you drop the clutch from a high rpm with the car at a stop.

In addition to my own business, I work for a truck body manufacturer as a Quality Manager. But most of the projects that I've directly worked on at this job have involved tooling for the production line. Factory workers beat the crap out of tools, fixtures, etc, so we have to find ways to make sure that they stay together for years under daily abuse. I do a lot of work with our warranty dept., so I document and give advice on parts failures that I have inspected in the field as well.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-03-2008 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:16 AM   #83
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Well i just got an 02 wrx, with a 5mt with RA gears with 4500 miles on the tranny and a dealership built the trans ( i have the paperwork). But i just bought the car and I personally only put 200 miles on the car since ive owned it and when i pulled off the interstated last night, my trans started making a knocking sound / grinding when moving. So yea I'm a newbie trying to figure out why my trans broke when I did nothing to damage it.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:55 AM   #84
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Though the idea behind this study of the case was as a proof of concept, and primarily to see where the weaknesses are. Since I was interested in designing a reinforcement when I started this project, I wanted to know at which locations I should apply reinforcement rather that just blindly bolting chunks of steel here and there. I was also very interested in being able to test the 5mt without the reinforcement as a baseline, and then see if there were any improvements with the reinforcement installed. This was purely a relative data comparison, I didn't really need to find exact figures against a set point away from the transmission under real-world driving conditions with a particularly high precision... Just basically needed to answer 3 questions. Does it flex? Where? And does the reinforcement help?
Fair enough. I didn't doubt you knew the shortcomings, and I think it's a pretty cool thing to actually build a rig to test. Have you considered adding bracing to simulate the trans being bolted to an engine block? That might bring to light different locations of problems.

Do you think the bracing will help with the issue of wheel-hop-induced-case-breakage (where the front diff actually jumps and cracks the case around the output stubs/sockets)?

Quote:
Any way you look at it though, smoothly applying 230ft./lbs. of continuous torque to the input shaft, even with the output shafts completely bound up is probably nothing close to the kind of force the transmission sees if you drop the clutch from a high rpm with the car at a stop.
Now THAT would be a cool test to perform to actually find out. Do you have anything that would allow you to do that?
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Old 11-03-2008, 10:40 AM   #85
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Fair enough. I didn't doubt you knew the shortcomings, and I think it's a pretty cool thing to actually build a rig to test. Have you considered adding bracing to simulate the trans being bolted to an engine block? That might bring to light different locations of problems.

Do you think the bracing will help with the issue of wheel-hop-induced-case-breakage (where the front diff actually jumps and cracks the case around the output stubs/sockets)?



Now THAT would be a cool test to perform to actually find out. Do you have anything that would allow you to do that?
If you look back through the thread, there are 2 seperate braces I'm developing. The bigger one goes on the passenger side and resists torsional flex that spreads back from the area around the pinion bearing. The other brace is on the driver's side and supports the the diff housing area behind the ring gear. The diff housing brace reduced measured flex on the driver's side of the diff housing significantly both at 230 and 300 ft./lbs. (on the order of 50% IIRC with measurements taken exactly where xdrain's transmission cracked from wheel hop). So short answer. My data suggests that these braces will help. You can look back through the thread where I've posted exact figures.

Yeah, I'd love to put together a rig that's less limited. Bolting the thing to an engine block and using much more beefy material for the rig itself would probably yield results that are closer to real world driving. I'd also have to find some way to provide resistance to the shafts that equals what I'd find in a 3,000lb. Impreza and actually run the engine with a functioning clutch assembly to see just how much the case reacts to torque as metered through the clutch. At this point I'd start getting into the realm of testing at the same level as an auto manufacturer with a fortune 500 R&D budget. Basically, I knew I had a shoestring budget as far as the big picture was concerned so I focused on getting a before and after data set where all other variables would be the same.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-03-2008 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:23 AM   #86
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Has there been any updates to this at all? Is the design finalized or are you still working on a few ideas?
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:56 AM   #87
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Yup, all is well, the design for the main reinforcement is pretty much hammered out. I'll be getting in touch with Dylan as soon as he's done with SEMA to see if he has any last bits of input before I get his sample sent off. Then I'll consider any other final changes he might request once he has the sample in his hands. I still need to build a fixture to clamp the plate down when I hit it with the TIG machine... That thing sinks tons of heat into the plate and I measured about .015" of camber/warpage over the total length of the base plate. It's not really even visible to the naked eye until I layed it on my polished marble measuring block, and it probably wouldn't make a difference, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to that kind of thing... I guess that's what happens when a quality control guy builds something, he's doomed to spend extra time on finishing touches

I still need to settle on a final design for the diff brace, and I'll need to build jigs/fixtures, so that part will be finalized probably a few weeks after the main reinforcement. I sourced some nifty little pre-drilled gussets that I'm adding in, so I'll have to make a few changes for everything to fit, but I think the assembly will be better/stronger as a whole with the gussets, and they look really cool which is a plus.

Once all that is done, I'll get to work on putting a full bolt kit together as well... That shouldn't take long at all, just need to do some wheelin' and dealin' with my bolt supplier

I've also finished up with all of the paint details for production. I'll still be in touch with Dylan to see if he can help me out with a powder-coat option.

I'll post up a picture of Dylan's main reinforcement sample when I get home this evening to see if anybody in the forum has any thoughts/input. It's looking pretty darn sharp, if I do say so myself

Last edited by jhargis; 11-05-2008 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:08 PM   #88
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I've got a couple of ideas for a rig to test torque dynamically, but they are all Texa$. The cheapest idea I have would still require a 75 HP, 1800 RPM motor and VFD. I might be able to get you the manuals for 500.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:11 PM   #89
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...but they are all Texa$...
Yeah that's kind of the problem. I could build a pretty sweet test rig with enough money. But my reinforcements are not going to be the most expensive aftermarket parts out there, so I'd have to make a lot of them just to break even on paying for a (conservative) $5k+ test rig plus a mountain of broken transmissions I'd probably generate during testing. Not to mention the load of hours it would take me to build it... And I'm not precisely sure what kind of demand there is for them yet, I know there are some interested folks, but I doubt there is enough demand to warrant many thousands of R&D dollars... At least not when my humble little test setup pretty much already generated the major bits of data that I needed.

Heck, even the little rig I made was probably enough to put some serious hurt on a subaru 5mt... At 300 ft./lbs. the input shaft had twisted to an alarming angle when it had to soak up 100% of the input torque against bound output shafts. I honestly think a few cycles with another 50ft./lbs. or so would have snapped something.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:21 PM   #90
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Here's a photo of Dylan's sample hanging up in the paint enclosure that I'm building. There are a few little details remaining that I'll be ironing out, but this should give you all a pretty close idea of what the production part will look like. Anybody have any input?

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Old 11-05-2008, 11:17 PM   #91
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Looks good, and sounds like you are doing everything right. It makes me feel a little better knowing that you are paying attention to such close details in producing these.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:53 AM   #92
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I guess I'm just used to going about things this way. Most of the personal business I've done has been sort of "freelance" custom fab work. So there's always a great deal of client input and when somebody is paying good money, they expect top notch work, no blemishes. So I figured why not produce something in some numbers, but go about it the same way? Lots of customer/vendor input. And one thing I've learned above everything in manufacturing quality control: If you plan out every little detail first, you can produce a much better product at the same cost as a far inferior product which doesn't have the initial planning behind it. I'd rather push the release date back a few weeks and have a really good product than get something mediocre out right away.

I'm glad that folks have been posting and pm'ing me about this... Really keeps the creative juices flowing and I think it will result in a much better final package

Last edited by jhargis; 11-06-2008 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:30 AM   #93
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Sweet project!
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:24 AM   #94
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Thanks. Good choice of vehicles too, the v6 must be a monster. I love the older aw11's, they don't make cars that light anymore .

In fact, I just fabbed a short shifter and shifter ball spacer plate for my friend's '84 MR-2 the other day, came out really nice. Next on the list: puttin' some boost on that 4AGE of his.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-06-2008 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:50 PM   #95
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Alright, just to keep all of you folks up to date:

The sample is in the mail headed for DS1 Motorsports, so it should be there by the end of the week! Once Dylan gets a chance to get a look at it and test fit it, etc. I'll work with him on any final input he might have.

Just some notes on differences between the sample and the final production version:

-On the sample, the 2 strips of cross bracing were heated and then bent into an "x" pattern. On the final version, these will be coined in my press-brake to ensure uniform/consistant dimensions and a slightly sharper bend radius for athstetic purposes.

-There are spacers of various sizes that sit between the reinforcement and the case to allow the base plate of the reinforcement to sit in proper alignment with the case as well as to clear some external webbing. The prototype was tested with these not welded to the base plate, and Dylan's sample is the same. These will be welded to the base plate on the final version for ease of installation and added stregnth.

-The sample was shipped with 4 class 10.9 bolts and grade 8 washers. The production version will include the 4 bolts along with class 10.9 washers and 4 flanged (OEM shape) class 10.9 nuts.

-Paint quality will also be improved on the final product over the sample. I've done quite a bit of painting lately using the base coat that I've chosen in order to really dial in the right consistency. The sample was sprayed with just an acrylic lacquer base coat. The production version will use the same base coat for color, but will include a 2 part acrylic enamel clear coat for a tougher surface finish and better chemical resistance.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-11-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:37 PM   #96
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got to test my new toy at the track on sunday, forgot to tell you!!! so far so good, trans is holding up great, did burnouts and launched the car a couple times and so far so good, track tomorrow again!
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:09 AM   #97
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Awesome. Glad to hear it. My understanding is that cracking the actual case is pretty rare, but it's good that everything seems to be holding together with the diff brace installed, that's definitely encouraging! Trapping 131 sounds you're definitely giving the ol' gearbox a run for its money!

Last edited by jhargis; 11-13-2008 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:52 PM   #98
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My understanding is that cracking the actual case is pretty rare,
The only times I've seen it were from excessive wheel hop that split the differential portion of the case.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:27 AM   #99
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^^^ That's exactly what happened to xdrian's case.

My logic was: If it's weak enough to break from wheel hop, it's probably weak enough to flex under load, and it happens to be the part of the case that exhibits the most flex .

It's good that he went out to the track and put down some hard runs without any breakage... That isn't proof that the brace helps, but at least it's not proof that it doesn't (mmm... double-negative reasoning ). Although I did measure an improvement with the brace on, so supporting data does exist. At least there's a real world example out there that didn't disprove the usefulness of the diff brace, which is a start.
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:58 PM   #100
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went back to the track yesterday again! trans held up great, now my exedy twin disk gave out! still went 11.001 @127
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