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Old 10-14-2008, 10:18 AM   #76
faller07
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Heres how i feel about it

Whenever an individual is initially introduced to turbo cars and hears a BOV, their initial reaction is that it sounds pretty cool. Not knowing much about BOV's, they may blindly want one for their first (and many times only) mod.

However, I would ask anyone who is considering a BOV to wait two months before putting one on you suby. After falling in love with my car, I could not justify putting anything on my car that could possibly dammage her. After realizing the difficulties of installing one correctly, the possible damage is just no longer worth a cool sound.

Just my opinion. If you can live with the possibility of causing damage to the components of your car (even though this thread does say that the chance is very small) go for it. Its just not for me.
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:29 PM   #77
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Bump because evidently people STILL dont understand BOVs.
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:59 PM   #78
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Awesome Dave, good stuff.

Ron
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:39 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faller07 View Post

After falling in love with my car, I could not justify putting anything on my car that could possibly dammage her. After realizing the difficulties of installing one correctly, the possible damage is just no longer worth a cool sound.

It is suggested that you actually READ the thread before posting in it
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Old 10-19-2008, 05:15 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faller07 View Post
Heres how i feel about it

Whenever an individual is initially introduced to turbo cars and hears a BOV, their initial reaction is that it sounds pretty cool. Not knowing much about BOV's, they may blindly want one for their first (and many times only) mod.

However, I would ask anyone who is considering a BOV to wait two months before putting one on you suby. After falling in love with my car, I could not justify putting anything on my car that could possibly dammage her. After realizing the difficulties of installing one correctly, the possible damage is just no longer worth a cool sound.

Just my opinion. If you can live with the possibility of causing damage to the components of your car (even though this thread does say that the chance is very small) go for it. Its just not for me.
0.0% possibility of causing damage.

Wait 2 months to see if you still think its cool before you potentially waste your money on it. But dont wait because of a false sense of fear that it will damage anything. Because it wont.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:20 PM   #81
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nice writeup!
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
OK!
1. BOVS make you run rich.
--No they do NOT! Here is why. When you are idling, driving around, and under boost, the BOV is CLOSED just like stock. The only way to be running rich is if the BOV was somehow letting air out post maf, WHILE RUNNING, constantly. The exception to this would be a valve that is leaking REALLY badly, and in a case like this, you will know there is a problem right away anyway, as the car will probably barely run. For it to leak this badly, it would have to be physically damaged or just REALLY f'd up
Huh? The ECU learns and adjusts. Having a BOV on a MAF car doesn't allow this to happen correctly. Take any MAF car with an A/F gauge and a recirc... change it to a BOV and you'll see your idle is affected after a pull, and the car is chasing itself, and running rich all the time! All air is metered, it doesn't matter when you dump it, you're negatively affecting the tune.

This isn't even taking into consideration (As already mentioned here) BOV's tending to have vacuum leaks around the vents at idle, which becomes a lean condition that the computer can't correct.

You run a BOV on a MAF car, you are going to have problems. It doesn't matter what you do.

Unabombers thread was just fine, and still is. The design of BOV's hasn't changed, and neither has MAF based cars regarding this subject... it doesn't need updating.
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:38 PM   #83
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Huh? The ECU learns and adjusts. Nowhere near as fast as you are trying to say. Having a BOV on a MAF car doesn't allow this to happen correctly. [color="Red"]Actually, if the valve works correctly, it does.[/COLOR] Take any MAF car with an A/F gauge and a recirc... change it to a BOV and you'll see your idle is affected after a pull, If your valve is malfunctioning and the car is chasing itself, and running rich all the time! [color="Red"]This is 100% incorrect and misleading. If your a/f is staying rich at any point past when the valve closes, then your valve is not closing properly.[/COLOR] All air is metered, it doesn't matter when you dump it, you're negatively affecting the tune. The rich spot is less than 4 lines, generally only 2-3 lines, on most dataloggers. The ECU will not see the condition long enough to even care about it. FURTHERMORE if you were to datalog the stock valve, you would see that you STILL go rich for that split second when it vents. Its just slightly less rich, for really, essentially the same timespan. Also, you are GREATLY overestimating the speed at which the ECU learns. Knock will be responded to that quickly, a 1/4second bump of 2 points richer, will NOT be responded to. At all. I have seen the datalogs to prove this.

This isn't even taking into consideration (As already mentioned here) BOV's tending to have vacuum leaks around the vents at idle, which becomes a lean condition that the computer can't correct. This applies if you have a junk valve. That problem has already been covered. There are several valves out there that work very well. Futhermore, if there IS a very minor leak, the lean condition would be steady state, and the ECU would easily adjust for it. That isnt to say that this is an acceptable condition, which is why, if you MUST have a BOV, you need to chose carefully and maintain it properly.

You run a BOV on a MAF car, you are going to have problems. It doesn't matter what you do. This is proven to not be the case if the valve is functioning properly. Please explain how there are SO many cars out there, with MAF based fueling, running BOVs and having ZERO problems. And I am not saying zero apparent problems, I mean zero problems, proven, zero problems. Rock solid A/Fs, IAMs in line where they should be, power output where it should be. Please explain how that ISNT actually happening. Tell us all that those cars dont exist

Unabombers thread was just fine, and still is. The design of BOV's hasn't changed, and neither has MAF based cars regarding this subject... it doesn't need updating.

Its NOT fine. It goes right over the head of 95% of the people who read it. It never addresses the common misconceptions of poor idle and blown up motors. If anything, it needs a quick to the point summary of the key points added to the beginning, as this is all most people even bother to read. If they even take the time to read it. FURTHERMORE it absolutely needs updating, as there are now many decent valves on the market, and we have learned several things about what their problems ACTUALLY are.

I have to ask, are you saying any of this from experience of working on, modifying and tuning TONS of Subaru vehicles over 6+ years, with litterally hundreds of different setups, as well as first hand testing and datalogging 35+ valves, on 4 different vehicles that you personally own/owned?

Because I am.

Last edited by Davenow; 10-19-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:45 PM   #84
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Good thread Dave, but Ive had my hks ssqv for about 80k miles...no problems at all. Gabe tuned it, and it doesnt leak. I have heard of others that said they had a problem but thats them.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:18 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
I have to ask, are you saying any of this from experience of working on, modifying and tuning TONS of Subaru vehicles over 6+ years, with litterally hundreds of different setups, as well as first hand testing and datalogging 35+ valves, on 4 different vehicles that you personally own/owned?

Because I am.
, being a subaru has nothing to do with it. Our cars act no different than any other MAF based car where you release metered air to atmo.

10yr mechanic, personal experience, datalogging clearly shows otherwise, not to mention hundreds of testomonials all over the site, and I can't recal how many cars with these specific issues i've fixed.

This has got to be one of the easiest disputed miss-conceptions, and the reason why speed density was developed. Even the slightest change of metered or un-metered air causes problems on MAF based cars.

Your response, this FAQ, and arguments are based on your personal opinions, and puts you in the same category of the 95% of people you claim don't understand unabombers thread.

Last edited by irascible; 10-19-2008 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 10-27-2008, 08:14 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irascible View Post

Your response, this FAQ, and arguments are based on your personal opinions, and puts you in the same category of the 95% of people you claim don't understand unabombers thread.

and years, and years of experience. HUNDREDS of cars. Say what you want, you cant argue with datalogs (tons of datalogs) and actual real world results

*shrug*
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
and years, and years of experience. HUNDREDS of cars. Say what you want, you cant argue with datalogs (tons of datalogs) and actual real world results

*shrug*
Damn, guess we'll have to let the engineers at UTEC, AEM, and Cobb know to stop their work on speed density. After all these years of problems, development of new systems... you could have told us sooner!

Nevermind my years of real world experience, untold amount of cars, and datalogged results that are posted all over the place as well. Everyone's is obviously fake, yours are real! I mean, how crazy was I, to think, that change in metered air caused problems.

*shrug*
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:09 PM   #88
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engineers at utec

There ya have it. No need for me to even bother with you anymore. But I will because I am obsessive/compulsive like that.


FYI I was one of the first people to run the UTEC, and I know it inside/out. Better than many "professional" tuners out there. In fact I have been paid by a LOT of people to re-tune their car after a "pro" screwed it up.

I have been running speed density for a LONG time. The reason/advantage to/for speed density is has nothing to do with, and never has had anything to do with a BOV?

I am not saying your results are fake. I am saying that you are probably looking at another problem and blaming the BOV, or that I would bet my life that if I spent 5 minutes with these cars that I would find BOVs that are improperly installed, have burrs/dirt/no lubrication or are adjusted too loosely. Either that or, and don't take this as me making a blanket statement that you are an idiot, but that you may just not understand what you are looking at, and there is another problem with the tune. If you have so much experience then you realize that this would be a fuel trim issue, and that there are a hundred things that can cause that. As well as the fact that 50% of tuners (if not more) are incapable of figuring out what is causing a fuel trim problem, or even realizing that there is one.



Yes, if you think that a split second burst of the change in the air metered will cause problems over a longer time period or the entire fuel trim, yes, you are in fact crazy. Small things like that cannot cause global changes to the fuel table. The ECU simply doesn't react that fast to a/f issues.

Last edited by Davenow; 10-27-2008 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:16 PM   #89
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Wow, your replies alone are proof enough. Anyone that follows your advice, deserve's problems. No need for me to say anything else.

Good luck
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:57 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Yes, if you think that a split second burst of the change in the air metered will cause problems over a longer time period or the entire fuel trim, yes, you are in fact crazy. Small things like that cannot cause global changes to the fuel table. The ECU simply doesn't react that fast to a/f issues.
I agree
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:55 PM   #91
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Wow... I think alot of people here dont understand how the closed loop system works on the denso ecu. This is a simple fact that has turned into many arguments.

If the air goes past the sensor and the engine is running. This air is metered. END OF STORY. Its your choice on what to do with this air. My choice, your choice, a friends choice.. No matter what.. The air has been metered and the ecu has reacted to that signal and logic.

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Old 10-31-2008, 11:24 AM   #92
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Hmm, Davenow and Defiant Autospeed... care to chim in with more of your so-called "experience", "tuning", and "real datalogging"?

I hate being right, especially after so many replied agreeing with your non-sense in this thread. Not to mention on a subject that's so easily understood!

Look at the bright side, a couple of myth's were dispelled... so part of your goals here Davenow were met!

1. BOV's are bad on MAF based cars (shocking, I know).
2. Unabombers thread is fine, this thread is completely missleeding and WRONG.

I suggest anyone that has been tuned by either of these people, take your car to someone with "real" experience and knows how to tune properly like Clark Turner.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:46 AM   #93
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good man dave, for wading through the crap

<---crushed .02 cent mod, holds 24psi just fine

<---had 50/50 gfb valve on my 03 wrb wrx, only problem was when car was cold..valve was stiff, non issue though

car felt nicer between the shifts on the butt dyno, did it reduce compressor surge? idk, but it felt more responsive on my butt dyno between shifts

my motor was strong on that car, it had no ill effects on the car

if i was to run, i'd definitely run a 50/50...but i think stock is teh best, crushed bpv ftw!(did the same type of thing as the bov on my wrb wrx did, felt more responsive between shifts afterwards) i think the ecu compensated for this as the hard shift gains went away over time...or so the butt dyno thinks

purely hearsay

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Old 11-11-2008, 10:49 AM   #94
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I took the return line off my stock BPV for poops and laughs and here were my findings:

My car idled worst than when I put in a EWG uppipe, catless downpipe, CAI, and had a fried front 02 sensor.

It constantly wanted to stall at idle, or when I let off the gas.

My car was popping in the exhaust. It never does that. (Actually, now that the return hose is back on, it still does it. Just to a lesser extent)

Needless to say, I put the hose back on.
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:03 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irascible View Post
Hmm, Davenow and Defiant Autospeed... care to chim in with more of your so-called "experience", "tuning", and "real datalogging"?

I hate being right, especially after so many replied agreeing with your non-sense in this thread. Not to mention on a subject that's so easily understood!

Look at the bright side, a couple of myth's were dispelled... so part of your goals here Davenow were met!

1. BOV's are bad on MAF based cars (shocking, I know).
2. Unabombers thread is fine, this thread is completely missleeding and WRONG.

I suggest anyone that has been tuned by either of these people, take your car to someone with "real" experience and knows how to tune properly like Clark Turner.

If what you are saying is: "blowing off registered air causes a brief rich spot" then you are right. So is Davenow/Defiant (yeah, they are the same person. Try to keep up .) What he's saying is it's not as rich as everyone would like to think and BOV's are not the "debil" (<-I know how it's spelled, I just like saying it Waterboy's mom-style ) and typically any problems related back to the BOV have more to do with improper adjustment/maintenance and/or a crappy unit itself.

I don't know how old you are so I won't guess, but here's some free advice..... saying things like, "I hate being right" and completely dogging a well-respected and trusted member of the community who has contributed more than you ever will makes you look like a snot-nosed brat kid who's all of 17.

Just sayin'.

Oh, you're NOT 17? Cool. Maybe don't act like it then.

Last edited by Jack; 12-19-2008 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:33 PM   #96
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You're kind of a prick, huh?

If what you are saying is: "blowing off registered air causes a brief rich spot" then you are right. So is Davenow/Defiant (yeah, they are the same person. Try to keep up .) What he's saying is it's not as rich as everyone would like to think and BOV's are not the "debil" (<-I know how it's spelled, I just like saying it Waterboy's mom-style ) and typically any problems related back to the BOV have more to do with improper adjustment/maintenance and/or a crappy unit itself.

I don't know how old you are so I won't guess, but here's some free advice..... saying things like, "I hate being right" and completely dogging a well-respected and trusted member of the community who has contributed more than you ever will makes you look like a snot-nosed brat kid who's all of 17.

Just sayin'.

Oh, you're NOT 17? Cool. Maybe don't act like it then.
If providing facts and not putting up with someon's crap makes me a prick, so be it. My first posts were straight to the point, and he got all butt hurt and got put in his place. Period.

I do find it funny; however, that you defend this thread, and call this guy a well-respected trusted member whose contributed sooo much. Who, in fact, doesn't understand something as simplistic as this??

Contributions mean nothing when they aren't correct, no matter how much more he's done. This thread is a prime example, and I feel strongly that people who help put a stop to such worthless crap... contribute MORE, and in the long run will cause less headaches for others.

Nasioc is a great site, but unfortunately has a reputation of having alot of wrong information like this, and as a mechanic... it's frustrating finding so many due to inexperienced people that cause nothing but confusion and problems for people looking for correct answers.

So yah, you go ahead and pass judgement on others, defend stupidity, and call me a prick. While you're at it, go ahead and take your recirc tube off.

Touche' on the being 17 comment.

Last edited by irascible; 11-11-2008 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:08 AM   #97
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i think this is very useful!
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:58 PM   #98
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Bump for people who are spreading false information
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Old 12-19-2008, 02:52 PM   #99
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Ok.....I'm going to chime in. I usually just shut up on this issue because a BOV is of no value to me....would jump my LGT out of showroom stock. However, I'm a practicing engineer and both skeptical and analytical. (yes, so overly logical, my wife calls me Mr. Spoc).

Ok....some facts.
Speed density CAN give you more performance under unchanging conditions. It takes a map and that map governs all. It does not look at incoming air. For someone able to tune trackside, this is the way to go.
Mass Air takes account of the air entering the throttle body. Changes are accounted for and the ECU is able to change mapping based on this. If you don't want to screw with your system, this is for you.

Want to see the differences in the 2 systems. It's not subaru world....but it's easy to document. Take a Ford 302 HO engine from a speed density Mustang. Say 88 or older (neglecting california cars....then 87 and older). Change the cam to an E303, which is one of Ford's alphabet cams and quite a common upgrade. Start the car with no changes to the system. Watch and glory in your new invention....Light emitting cats!
Now fast forward to mass air and an appropriate computer (89 or newer from same model) and wow. Just wow....it runs, the cats are happy, your eyes no longer burn.
(oh....and don't try to write a patent for a light emitting cat......I've already documented prior art in my Cobra....the above is what I found because it's what I did)

Ok....so what's this got to do with BOV's? Directly....nothing. Indirectly...we are getting into some of this in posts, so I wanted to talk about what I know.


Ok....you expert guys out there. I wanna see data. Again, I'm an engineer so I believe nothing without data. Show me something. You tell me what'll tell the story? Boost pressure and air/fuel ratio, maybe? Seems reasonable to me. We'll see the sudden drop in boost due to (first a BPV, then a BOV) and see the reaction in AFR. I do not know how fast an AFR sensor can record....you guys can help me there.

And don't just spout off.....well, when the BPV/BOV opens.....something..something will happen. That's of zero value and zero credibility. Show me the data.


Without data, you guys are blowing smoke.

I'll wait while you do your homework.

jack
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Old 12-19-2008, 03:42 PM   #100
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^in to see results.
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