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Old 11-18-2009, 05:22 PM   #701
volcomgnu
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year: 2009
make: Subaru
model: WRX
location Denver, Colorado
tires only or winter package: Tires only

With once a week trips to Breckinridge to go riding. I've looked at the LM series or the WS-60, but I'm afraid they will wear too quickly.


for frequent road trips like that I recommend a high performance winter like the LM60
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Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-20-2009 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:45 PM   #702
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year: 1998
make: Subaru
model: Legacy GT
location Oregon
tires only or winter package: Tires only

I LOVED the Revo-1's but since they are discontinued is the WS-60 the best replacement?

thanks

J


you are absolutely correct the WS60 is the replacement for the Revo-1

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-20-2009 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:04 PM   #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyson01 View Post
year: 2002
make: Subaru
model: WRX wagon
location: Corvallis/Hood River, OR

I bought a set of studded General Altimax Arctics off of craigslist that I'm considering destudding since the amount of rain seen here is greater (usually) than the amount of snow (though last year was epic in terms of snow amount). I'm just curious what the expert(s) think. Leave the studs or remove them? I make a lot of mountain trips and Hood River is just one big hill. How much traction/control will be lost due to the studs on wet pavement compared to the amount of traction gained due to the studs on snow/ice?

edit: they were only used for one season and have good tread left

I would leave them in ... seems like too much of a headache to take them out for the nominal difference it will make
+1.

From outahere on LegacyGT.com - In a 2009 Scandinavian winter tire test the studless Xi2 required 37.2 meters to come to a stop on wet pavement from 80 km/hr - studded Hakka7 required 37.4 meters.

In that test, 13 of the studded tires out-braked 6 of the non-studded tires on wet pavement.

If wet-(but clear) road traction is a true concern, note Car & Driver's latest comparo of two "all-season," one "performance winter," and one "studless ice & snow" tires, all the latest and greatest of Michelin's offerings, all under winter conditions. In the cold wet, the "studless ice and snow" tire, the vaulted Xi2, did considerably worse in stopping than either of the two "all-season" tires or the "performance winter." This is even despite the "all-season" having tread into the territory where the tire-makers, etc., say that temperatures are far below what "all-season" tires would consider optimal (yet, their performance in the cold wet are nearly identical to that of the "performance winter," if not better).

Last edited by LGT+WRX; 11-19-2009 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:06 PM   #704
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hey Luke,

Just looking for winter tires on the stock wheels. What would be a good size tire for winter? Anything that could give me a little more clearance would be great. We have fairly moderate to severe winter conditions and I make a few trips to the UP of Michigan each winter. I'm not looking for the most expensive tire, but will spend the money for good tires. Blizzak WS-60, LM-60, or Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D? When will the Winter sport 3d's be available?

year:2007
make: Subaru
model: WRX TR
location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
tires only or winter package: Tires only

Thanks!

the new Continental Extreme Winter Contact and the Michelin X-Ice XI2 are both great choices for your conditions and use. If you find more than a couple of trips to the UP are in the planning then the Blizzak WS60 might also make sense. I would opt for the Michelin if it were my call.
I bought a set of X-Ice XI2's through a vendor here, but they ordered them from Tirerack. I did however get them in 215/55R17. Could you let me know the advantages and disadvantages of going taller than stock?

Order Number: 155TR7X1204745
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:06 AM   #705
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Awesome, thanks for the feedback.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:17 AM   #706
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Order Number: 155TR7X1204745
that's not a Tire Rack order number and, hopefully the taller tire will not rub.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:03 PM   #707
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For the record, I currently live in York, PA and drive an 09 wrx. Not too crazy of a winter, but it will snow every now and then. I'm leaning toward either the Blizzak LM-25's or the Blizzak LM-60's, largely based off of what I've heard from the Blizzak name. I heard the 25's are slightly better in dry, and slightly worse in snow than the LM-60's, so given that the majority of time driving will not be spent through snow, I'm leaning toward the LM-25's. Is this correct/a good choice, or should I be looking at something different?

Also, I figured I don't want to spend ~100 bucks every season to get my tires mounted/unmounted - getting a second set of rims is starting to look very enticing. What do you guys think of the enkei performance edr9's? How much better/worse are they than the stock rims? If I get those, would it be better to put the edr9's on the winter tires, or use those for the summer and put the stock rims on the winter tires?

Thanks for the help

the LM60 is a direct replacement for the LM25. In the dry they are very similar but, the LM60 is better in the snow. LM60 would be the choice to make

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-20-2009, 01:21 PM   #708
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year: 2008
make: Subaru
model: STi
location: Los Angeles, CA to Kansas City, KS
tires only or winter package: Tires only

I make a yearly trip (3k miles) from Los Angeles to Kansas City and back on I-70, so I go through Colorado mountains. I never really know what the road conditions will be like on the journey or during my three week stay, sometimes snowy and or icy, sometimes just dry or wet and cold. Usually all at some point. Previously, I have made the drive on all seasons (Falken ZE-912). I have never had any issues with them, but their snow traction leaves much to be desired (but understood as they are all seasons).

I would really like to be safer with snow tires, but don't want to spend a ton of money on them as they are only used three weeks of the year (maybe more if I pick up snowboarding in So Cal next season). I would be putting the tires on 17" BBS wheels (probably 225/45/17).

From your replies to others, it would appear that the following may be good candidates for myself: Dunlop Winter Sport 3D, Bridgestone Blizzak LM-60 or General Altimax Arctic (more budget?). Which would be the best all around to meet potential mild, cold, dry, wet, snow and ice on a cross country journey.

actually I find that your situation creates an altogether new issue .... ride quality .... several thousand miles on a winter tire which is inherently more noisy than an all-season tire tends to be a bit nerve racking. For that reason I would suggest the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3 as the best choice for you and your needs.

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:04 PM   #709
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I run Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 in the winter time, and I can tell you, those tires are phenominal! I can't believe the grip. I've passed at least 20 cars going up the mountain, and not that I condone it, passsed a car sideways in a turn on a wide road. You just have to remember that braking distances are longer than usual.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:15 PM   #710
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If I wasn't concerned about noise, would you still recommend the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3? I have the entire exhaust replaced from the block back and an running an external waste gate. I am not sure what kinds of tire noise would get through that, but I have never driven on noisier snow tires.

not concerned about noise ... that does bring the LM60 and the Winter Sport 3D back to the table (the general is still not in the mix though). I still like the Michelin for the trip but, second choice would be LM60 followed by the Dunlop are very close behind. any of these would be a good choice and if the end decision came down to $$$ it wouldn't bea bad thing ... there is a $50 Dunlop promo going on right now as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by x01011000x View Post
year: 2008
make: Subaru
model: STi
location: Los Angeles, CA to Kansas City, KS
tires only or winter package: Tires only

I make a yearly trip (3k miles) from Los Angeles to Kansas City and back on I-70, so I go through Colorado mountains. I never really know what the road conditions will be like on the journey or during my three week stay, sometimes snowy and or icy, sometimes just dry or wet and cold. Usually all at some point. Previously, I have made the drive on all seasons (Falken ZE-912). I have never had any issues with them, but their snow traction leaves much to be desired (but understood as they are all seasons).

I would really like to be safer with snow tires, but don't want to spend a ton of money on them as they are only used three weeks of the year (maybe more if I pick up snowboarding in So Cal next season). I would be putting the tires on 17" BBS wheels (probably 225/45/17).

From your replies to others, it would appear that the following may be good candidates for myself: Dunlop Winter Sport 3D, Bridgestone Blizzak LM-60 or General Altimax Arctic (more budget?). Which would be the best all around to meet potential mild, cold, dry, wet, snow and ice on a cross country journey.

actually I find that your situation creats an altogether new issue .... ride quality .... several thousand miles on a winter tire which is inherently more noisy than an all-season tire tends to be a bit nerve racking. For that reason I would suggest the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3 as the best choice for you and your needs.

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:32 PM   #711
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As far as I can tell ZE-912 is not only all season but all season that is quite poor in snow.
I would go with performance winter but maybe cheaper would be to fly?

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Old 11-20-2009, 05:47 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by krzyss View Post
As far as I can tell ZE-912 is not only all season but all season that is quite poor in snow.
I would go with performance winter but maybe cheaper would be to fly?

Krzys
From what I remember, when I was looking at all-seasons a couple of years ago, when the 912s stepped on the scene, indeed, that's what the various publications cited, when compared to their predecessors, the 512s.

The 512s were, at the time, considered "acceptable/decent" winter-capable all-seasons by most LERSOC (Lake Erie Regional Subaru Owners Club - which serves the NE-Ohio snow-belt region) members, particularly when cost as well as non-winter performance was also factored into play, but compared against those days' more winter-capable all-seasons, like the ContiExtremes, it was still considered second tier.

Having driven in 4 years of NE-Ohio winters with various vehicles shod with the Falken 512s - everything from my then-stock to "Stage II" '05 LGT, as well as a 300 wHP '95 Talon TSi front-driver, as long as one exercised good caution, it was far from unmanageable, and at deeper tread-depths (which was a problem on these tires, as they tend to wear fast), they were actually quite confidence-inspiring, all taken into account.

But if the 912s' winter performance is to be put into perspective with the 512s as a basis of comparison, I would truly hesitate to use the 912s in a four-seasons manner, here in NE-Ohio - yet, since you got through your drives OK, x01011000x, I can't help but think that you'd be just fine with more winter-capable all-seasons, even if you did not wish to step up to "performance winters," which I do think would be a good choice for you, if you desired a bit more safety margin, in the slippery white stuff.

In terms of road-noise, the set of 225-width 512s that I transferred over to my wife's '05 WRX sedan was tremendously noisy - this behavior was *not* seen, when I had these tires (on the same rims) on my '05 Legacy 2.5GT sedan, making the lack of wheel-well area cabin sound-deadening very apparent, in her vehicle. When I switched her over to Michelin Xi2s (at 215 width, still on my LGT's factory 5-spoke rims), there was a noticeable decrease in noise - which did not seem to differ much from her factory RE92s.

I strongly believe that in your vehicle, with your plumbing work, you won't notice anything at all, even if there's more noise. My LGT is loud enough, with a Crucial shorty DP coming off the small factory snail, fed into the factory 3rd cat section going into a large resonated Magnaflow mid-section, then split with a Lachute Y into two rather subdued Blitz Nur-Spec Touring canisters, that even the droning coming from my summer Hankook RS-2s barely makes a dent to my overall sanity level. With your EWG and turboback (what muffler can are you running?) I truly doubt that you'll have a problem.

I don't know about the PA3s, but with 225-width 3Ds, in my LGT, tire noise is virtually identical to any of my previous all-seasons.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:06 PM   #713
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Yeah, the ZE-912 is just an all season. When it came out it had good CR reviews, they rated it their number one all season. I believe it also scored well with Grassroots Motor Sports budget tire comparison. That said, they are only marginal at best in snow.

Thank you for the input LGT+WRX. With your noise comparison and the price difference of the PS3s to the 3Ds, I think I would lean toward the 3Ds. I am running a Magnaflow oval muffler, though not sure on the exact model. The cat back exhaust was a custom job by a shop.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:35 PM   #714
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CR rated them high but their treadwear was always poor and winter driving was not their forte.
I agree with LGT+WRX that better AS (more winter oriented) might be good enough for you but Pilot Alpin PA3 is probably the most non winter tire out of all winter tires ;-). I would personally prefer Primacy Alpin over Pilot Alpin but I live in MA and use Continental TS810 in 225/45R17 size on my 05 Legacy GT.

Krzys

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Old 11-20-2009, 09:59 PM   #715
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Luke:

My Dunlop Winter Sport 3D's just arrived mounted on Sport Edition D5's. Thanks for the tire recommendation! I couldn't take another Winter on All-Seasons. Last year we got a lot of snow and it was a disaster even with AWD.

Thanks again,

Tom

thanks for the opportunity, I was happy to help out where I could

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:19 PM   #716
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year: 2004
make: Subaru
model: WRX Sedan
location: Boston metro area -- I live on a hill that is the last to be plowed
tires only or winter package: Tires only

I bought some 16 x 6.5" steel rims off a nice forum member and I'm wondering what the optimal width/ar of tires is? I guessed 225/60 but 205/60 would also (nominally) fit?

Thanks Luke!


205/55-16 or 225/50-16 would be the way to go and I would lean towards the 205/55-16 szie if it was my car and my
$$$

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 12:28 PM   #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonzenze View Post
year: 2004
make: Subaru
model: WRX Sedan
location: Boston metro area -- I live on a hill that is the last to be plowed
tires only or winter package: Tires only

I bought some 16 x 6.5" steel rims off a nice forum member and I'm wondering what the optimal width/ar of tires is? I guessed 225/60 but 205/60 would also (nominally) fit?

Thanks Luke!
205 55 of course.
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:17 PM   #718
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
205 55 of course.



So, if I wanted to learn something here, can you explain why that's a better fit for 16x6.5 rims than, say 225/60?



225/60-16 would be too tall

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 06:54 PM   #719
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^ Narrower "cuts through" better - and is of particular help on vehicles which are lighter, like ours.


----


Quote:
Originally Posted by x01011000x View Post
Thank you for the input LGT+WRX. With your noise comparison and the price difference of the PS3s to the 3Ds, I think I would lean toward the 3Ds. I am running a Magnaflow oval muffler, though not sure on the exact model. The cat back exhaust was a custom job by a shop.
^ Glad to be of-service.

My setup is decently quiet, on the overall scale of things - a concession to my wifey, who's gone through years of rather loud DSMs, as my girlfriend and fiancee. Heck, I even kept this car with its factory 3rd cat, for her sake. I'd have preferred Perrin cans for how aggressive they sound....the Blitz Nur-Spec Tourings resonate a bit right around the 2K to 2.5K mark, but after that, surprisingly, they get quieter, almost to the level of stock, at least from in-cabin, in my sedan.

I've honestly never heard an '08 STI with Magnaflows, so I can't gauge well how loud it would be - but given your hatch configuration and, of course, the EWG, I'd think that those two would drown out anything but Metallica playing live in your wheel-wells.

Quote:
Yeah, the ZE-912 is just an all season. When it came out it had good CR reviews, they rated it their number one all season. I believe it also scored well with Grassroots Motor Sports budget tire comparison. That said, they are only marginal at best in snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krzyss View Post
CR rated them high but their treadwear was always poor and winter driving was not their forte.
x01011000x, please don't misunderstand, I don't think that either krzyss (if I may be so bold as to speak for him, in this instance ) or myself are saying that the 912s are a bad tire - indeed, they've tested well, by multiple sources.

Rather, I think we're just more focused on the 912s wintering capabilities, which tested *less* well than their predecessors, the 512s - which were, themselves, noted to be less competent in the white and slippery winter stuff than more aggressively "winterized" all-seasons (like the ContiExtremes, for example).

Since you were able to do well enough with the 912s, my thinking is that an all-season tire with a bit more wintering capability would get you where you want to be, in terms of the safety-margin, but allow you to get more miles out of the tires - and also to potentially help with the budget.

Nevertheless, if you're looking to do more of those winter trips, investing in a set of dedicated winters truly could potentially one day mean the difference between having to get out of the car and shovel a little, versus cruising comfortably home.

It's a hard decision to make, and I don't think that if I were in your shoes, I'd be willing to call one choice better or worse than the other. They both have their benefits and shortcomings.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:21 PM   #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGT+WRX View Post
^ Narrower "cuts through" better - and is of particular help on vehicles which are lighter, like ours.

^ Glad to be of-service.
I do appreciate it. Going to grab a set of 205/55/R16 Toyo Garit KXs I found on CL. Thanks!
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:23 PM   #721
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hm, I agree.

;-)

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Old 11-22-2009, 02:02 AM   #722
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LGT+WRX & krzyss, I totally agree with you on the ZE-912 on snow. Didn't mean for it to sound like I was defending the Falken on snow or something. I know how hard it can be to stop with them in snow or ice
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:37 AM   #723
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^ No no, it didn't sound like you were defending them, at all - and I think that both krzyss and I were just trying to say that if you were fine with them, we pretty much think you've got enough "snow Kung-Fu" to be fine with practically any all-season tire you choose.

You're faced with a hard decision, and I don't envy you for it.

With my family, it was easy - neither my wife nor myself put down all that many miles per year, so when the choice came around, tread-life was a non-issue for me, in my decision making process. Heck, every season, the "unveiling," when I check for dry-rot, is the only thing I actually worry about.

Your situation makes for more concern, as you're gonna be logging some good mileage.

I'm honestly not sure what other tests out there has wear ratings....since it's something that I don't really look at, but the above-cited ADAC testing, at least in terms of the H-rated variants, will give you some idea of wear (remember that in their tests, the *lower* the number, the better). Local, conventional, wisdom from our LERSOC group (which has yet to steer me wrong) pegs the Nokian WR and WR G2 as a "good-wearing" tire, but in that test, it ranked 5th, IIRC - on the same level of tread-life as the H-rated Dunlop 3Ds. While I'm more than happy with the wear of my 3Ds (at this point, I'm pretty much guaranteed that dry-rot will take it, before the tread wears down to the point I'd consider replacing them; however, this year, I've been *very* aggressive with them, in the clear/mild, so we'll see how they do), I'm, as-confessed, extremely low-mileage.... If I were the winter road-tripping type, I'd definitely seek a better-wearing alternative.

[ Note, both outahere and I, on LGT.com, were speculating on this the other day - that the respective V-rated cousins of these tires should fare *better* in terms of wear, as it should stand to-logic that they would then be literally only one step away from their respective all-season relatives. But without direct testing results, we're left to wonder, somewhat, if that's actually true. ]



----


Quote:
Originally Posted by nonzenze View Post
I do appreciate it. Going to grab a set of 205/55/R16 Toyo Garit KXs I found on CL. Thanks!
NP. It's one of those things which, to someone new to winter tires, may not be immediately apparent - but when someone points it out, then, you're, like, "oh, yeah! it makes perfect sense!"

I'm running 225s on my '05 LGT. Why? Because with the roads around where I live, in the densely populated near-eastern suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio - DESPITE the fact that we do occasionally get dumped-on by true Lake Effect snowstorms - our streets are quickly and efficiently cleared...and I wanted tires that, in addition to bringing an additional margin-of-safety to the table for me, when the going is rough and slippery out, to also be plenty of fun in the clear, and also performed well on longer, highway, trips. A 225-width, V-rated "performance winter" fits that role, perfectly.

But that does make for some compromises, in the white and slippery stuff - it feels a bit floaty when there's unplowed, fresh, deeper powder on the ground, and it's weak on ice. At the same time, I'd be damned if it isn't every bit as performance-capable as a good set of all-seasons when it's clear out!

No tire is perfect, it's all about trade-offs.

Last edited by LGT+WRX; 11-22-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:13 AM   #724
Double Down
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2010 STI
Spark Silver

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Year: 2010
make: Subaru
model: STI
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
tires only or winter package: Winter Package

Looking for a good winter tire that also has decent wear as our town goes from snow to sun pretty quickly and then back again. We don't typically have a ton of snow in town, but when a storm comes it tends to pile up pretty fast.

Was looking at Blizzak LM-25's or Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D's but wasn't sure if you had a better recommendation. Also what size do you recommend? 225 or 235?

Thanks!

The Pirelli Sotto Zero is a favorite in Colorado Springs but, at $50 more than the Winter SPort 3D or the LM60 both offer a better value. I like the LM60 over the Dunlop for your application.

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:19 PM   #725
GrindingGears
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Chapter/Region: BAIC
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Thanks Luke!!




you're welcome ... now go complete the NASCAR look with a big number and some sponsor decals ....

just kidding around ... thanks for the opportunity

Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 11-24-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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