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Old 10-01-2008, 05:18 PM   #1
paintbing
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Default oxygen sensor vs air/fuel sensor

Like the title says,

I am referring to the oem catalogue www.subarugenuineparts.com -(Collision - Emission System - Emission System - "Oxygen Sensor" & also "Sensor")

Where does the Air/Fuel Sensor go? Is this considered the "front o2 sensor"? Is the oxygen sensor listed really the rear o2 sensor? The "oxygen sensor is like $109 while the air/fuel ratio sensor is $146. Is one the front and the other the rear? Which is which?

I don't want to order the wrong one assuming I see "Oxygen sensor" and think its correct. thanks id advance!!!

also, can't find part numbers for either... anybody have those?
2003 wrx - manual tranny
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:41 PM   #2
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The front o2 Sensor is in your exhaust manifold but is actually an A/F sensor. The rear o2 sensor is behind the last cat is an actual o2 sensor. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

It's a really easy fix to change out the front o2 sensor. Subaru parts wanted 150 i think and the dealer wanted 200 so I haggled them down to 165 and it was in the next day. The part number is 22641AA042

Write up on how to change it out..
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?p=37746
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Old 10-01-2008, 06:04 PM   #3
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Yeah that's correct.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:09 PM   #4
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so whats the technical difference between an A/F sensor and O2 sensor? Seems to me that they are identical. Both function by sampling the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream and comparing it to ambient.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:18 PM   #5
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Here is my write-up on front O2 sensor install:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1426388
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkramer View Post
so whats the technical difference between an A/F sensor and O2 sensor? Seems to me that they are identical. Both function by sampling the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream and comparing it to ambient.
The front o2(A/F) sensor measures that the proper amount of fuel and air are being combusted.
The rear o2 detects if the catalytic converters are working properly.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:30 PM   #7
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Please note that front O2 sensor is way more expensive.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkramer View Post
so whats the technical difference between an A/F sensor and O2 sensor? Seems to me that they are identical. Both function by sampling the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream and comparing it to ambient.
What we refer to as an 'Oxygen Sensor' is a narrowband device. The newer type of AFR Sensors are commonly referred to as a 'Wideband O2 Sensor' around here. These are the new types that will be used on more modern vehicles.

An O2 sensor generates it's own voltage, which is read by the ECU. The AFR sensor requires current from the ECU in order to function properly. Internally they are very different.

It allows the ECU to trigger more accurate alarm conditions and regulate emissions more stringently.

Good article on the AFR sensor technology and who's been using it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFR_sensor

One thing I wish I knew was life expectancy and cost for the AFR sensor. It seems they'd be beneficial, but not if they burn out after 50,000 miles and cost $400.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:46 PM   #9
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Bosch AFR sensor is roughly $80.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #10
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What vehicles are employing wideband A/F sensors in a stock application? I can't see a car company spending the extra money for a wideband reading A/F sensor when a narrowband has and does the job just fine for stock applications.

And the Bosch sensor you're referring to is exactly that, just the sensor part. You need to cut and splice the existing harness on your car to the new sensor. If you feel confident that your splicing can hold up to the engine heat and elements then by all means go ahead and get just the sensor. Personally, I feel more confident replacing the whole unit.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:55 PM   #11
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I was referring to an aftermarket "wideband" AFR gauges like UEGO ($220-250), which comes with a Bosch sensor. Stock front O2 sensor is roughly about $150 and lasts about 80-90k miles.
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:03 AM   #12
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Subaru uses a semi-wideband. That's why it's not called an "02" sensor. It's good down to about 11.3:1 mixture, which is where it bottoms out.

Lots of cars use widebands as their primary 02 sensors. The Acura RSX uses one for instance. They react faster and give direct readings of mixture. Narrow bands tell the ECU "rich/lean" and that's it.
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:16 AM   #13
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Ah, i see... So How many of us have more than 100,000 miles with the stock a/f sensor? I rebuilt my motor at 93,000 miles and have been having issues dialing-in on my misfire issues... I'm now at 105,000 miles and still get the random code(s)... more recently now than before. Things I've checked:
-Plugs & Gaps - 2 different sets of new plugs gapped at oem 0.028"
-Coils (resistance)
-Injectors (Resistance)
-vacuum leaks
-exhaust leaks
-Knock sensor
-Timing belt
-compression tests are within 3% of each other.

One thing that irks me, is that when I reset the ecu while driving it will be really responsive and be a bat-outa-hell for about 10 seconds then it's like somebody flips a switch and I lose like 10+ degrees of timing... why would that be?

The misfires are random... sometimes just 1, 2, 3, or all 4 cyl, and it's in ANY combination of cyl too; There is nothing that I can do to cause the misfire, nor can I feel the motor misfire. I have a lightweight flywheel, but this is NOT it, as I've had it for the prior 60K miles w/o issue.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintbing View Post
One thing that irks me, is that when I reset the ecu while driving it will be really responsive and be a bat-outa-hell for about 10 seconds then it's like somebody flips a switch and I lose like 10+ degrees of timing... why would that be?
If you're cruising along and you reset you're running in open loop fueling briefly. Once the ECU does a quick diagnostic and verifies the front O2 is heated, and if you're still cruising, it should kick over to closed loop. It could also be pulling timing if you have consistent knock. Logging would be the way to go instead of randomly changing parts.

You may also want to look at the cam or crank sensors. They're magnetically coupled to the shafts to produce their readings. These sensors can lose their ability to read correctly over time (magnets lose their fields). I'm almost willing to bet that's causing your misfire codes.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:16 AM   #15
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I thought it was the other way around, I thought the bad A/F causes a constant open loop cycle.

I replaced mine at 102,000 miles.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:21 AM   #16
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^ How did you determine that you needed to replace the A/F sensor? Did you just guess? Did a shop tell you? Did you do an ohm test? Did you get a CEL for the sensor?

Data logs coming shortly.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:24 AM   #17
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4th gear pull - Cobb VF34 OTS map

Time
AFR
Load
RPM
Ignition Total Timing (degrees)
Injector Duty Cycle
Knock correction
MRP psi
Wastegate Duty Cylce
MPH


Code:
Time	AFR	Load	RPM	ITT	IDC	KCA	PSI	WDC	MPH
0	13.32	0.55	2561	38	7.67	0	-5.37	0.78	50
47	13.44	0.55	2551	38	7.66	0	-5.22	0	50
235	13.78	0.56	2556	38	7.05	0	-5.22	0	49
438	14.36	0.56	2570	38	7.13	0	-5.08	1.18	49
656	14.36	0.57	2558	37.5	7.65	0	-5.08	1.57	50
844	14.36	0.57	2563	37.5	7.65	0	-5.08	0.78	50
1031	14.81	1.2	2556	27	16.26	3.5	0.73	8.24	50
1219	13.55	1.2	2597	20.5	16.02	3.5	1.6	15.69	50
1422	12.98	1.28	2602	19	16.74	3.5	2.47	23.53	50
1610	12.63	1.34	2634	16.5	18	3.5	3.34	28.24	50
1797	12.63	1.44	2640	14.5	19.15	3.5	4.35	35.69	50
2000	12.06	1.56	2654	13	20.38	3.5	5.51	43.53	50
2203	11.94	1.64	2709	12	22.54	3.5	6.53	50.98	50
2391	11.71	1.73	2745	10.5	25.73	3.5	7.84	58.43	50
2594	11.25	1.88	2763	9.5	27.12	3.5	9.14	65.88	51
2781	11.14	1.99	2795	8.5	30.12	3.5	10.45	63.53	51
2969	11.25	2.12	2808	8.5	31.65	3.5	11.75	62.75	53
3172	11.14	2.17	2843	8.5	32.14	3.5	12.77	62.75	53
3360	11.14	2.19	2914	8.5	33.56	3.5	13.2	62.75	53
3563	11.25	2.21	2942	8.5	34.52	3.5	13.64	62.75	53
3781	11.25	2.24	2996	8.5	35.8	3.5	13.78	62.75	53
3953	11.02	2.23	3034	8.5	35.78	3.5	13.93	62.75	55
4156	11.02	2.28	3056	8.5	37.19	3.5	14.07	62.75	55
4344	11.02	2.28	3089	8.5	37.56	3.5	14.07	62.75	57
4531	11.02	2.26	3150	8.5	38.3	3.5	14.07	62.75	57
4719	11.02	2.24	3216	8.5	39.11	3.5	14.07	62.75	57
4906	11.02	2.21	3241	8.5	38.72	3.5	14.22	62.75	60
5094	11.02	2.3	3274	8	40.5	3.5	14.22	62.75	60
5281	11.02	2.3	3311	8	40.72	3.5	14.22	62.75	61
5469	11.02	2.27	3344	8	41.99	3.5	14.36	62.75	61
5672	11.02	2.3	3366	8	42.93	3.5	14.36	62.75	61
5860	11.02	2.24	3420	8	43.61	3.5	14.51	62.75	63
6063	11.02	2.35	3432	8	44.93	3.5	14.51	62.75	63
6235	11.02	2.34	3462	8	45.06	3.5	14.36	62.75	65
6438	11.02	2.31	3524	8	45.86	3.5	14.36	63.14	65
6610	11.02	2.34	3544	7.5	46.88	3.5	14.36	63.14	65
6797	11.02	2.3	3611	7.5	47.76	3.5	14.36	63.14	66
7000	11.02	2.29	3644	8	48.2	3.5	14.36	63.14	66
7453	11.02	2.34	3662	8	48.44	3.5	14.36	63.14	68
7547	11.02	2.33	3733	8.5	49.38	3.5	14.51	63.14	68
7750	11.02	2.34	3742	8.5	50.3	3.5	14.51	63.14	70
7922	11.02	2.38	3805	9	51.14	3.5	14.51	63.14	70
8125	11.02	2.36	3848	9.5	51.72	3.5	14.65	63.14	72
8313	11.02	2.34	3878	9.5	51.29	3.5	14.65	63.14	72
8500	11.02	2.32	3949	10	51.39	3.5	14.51	63.14	72
8703	11.02	2.35	3983	10	53.53	3.5	14.51	63.14	74
8891	11.02	2.34	4002	10	54.64	3.5	14.65	63.14	74
9094	11.02	2.39	4000	10.5	54.84	3.5	14.65	63.14	75
9266	11.02	2.36	4034	10.5	55.11	3.5	14.65	63.14	75
9469	11.02	2.33	4089	10.5	56.01	3.5	14.65	63.14	75
9641	11.02	2.32	4107	10.5	56.07	3.5	14.51	63.14	76
9828	11.02	2.3	4190	10.5	57.2	3.5	14.65	63.14	76
10016	11.02	2.3	4206	10.5	58.33	3.5	14.65	63.14	78
10203	11.02	2.35	4230	10.5	59.56	3.5	14.65	63.14	78
10406	11.02	2.28	4249	10.5	58.92	3.5	14.65	63.14	78
10594	11.02	2.35	4280	10.5	61.18	3.5	14.8	63.14	80
10797	11.02	2.36	4310	10.5	61.78	3.5	14.65	63.14	80
10969	11.02	2.32	4348	10.5	62	3.5	14.65	63.14	81
11156	11.02	2.35	4409	10.5	62.58	3.5	14.65	63.14	81
11360	11.02	2.33	4404	10.5	62.94	3.5	14.51	63.14	81
11547	11.02	2.35	4470	10.5	64.84	3.5	14.65	63.14	83
11750	11.02	2.34	4467	10.5	63.84	3.5	14.65	63.14	83
11938	11.02	2.34	4523	10.5	64.97	3.5	14.65	63.14	85
12125	11.02	2.33	4554	10.5	64.97	3.5	14.8	63.14	85
12313	11.02	2.3	4607	10.5	64.98	3.5	14.8	63.14	87
12500	11.02	2.37	4632	10.5	66.21	3.5	14.8	63.14	87
12703	11.02	2.37	4635	10.5	66.25	3.5	14.8	63.14	87
12891	11.02	2.33	4667	10.5	66.58	3.5	14.8	63.14	88
13063	11.02	2.34	4717	10.5	67.42	3.5	14.8	63.14	88
13250	11.02	2.37	4744	10.5	67.8	3.5	14.8	63.14	90
13453	11.02	2.27	4814	10.5	67.77	3.5	14.8	63.14	90
13641	11.02	2.28	4826	10.5	66.97	3.5	14.8	63.14	90
13828	11.02	2.26	4842	11	67.14	3.5	14.8	62.75	91
14031	11.02	2.33	4870	11.5	68.57	3.5	14.8	62.35	91
14219	11.02	2.3	4879	11.5	68.93	3.5	14.65	62.35	93
14391	11.02	2.28	4944	11.5	68.55	3.5	14.65	62.35	93
14594	11.02	2.23	4996	12	68.22	1	14.65	61.96	93
14781	11.02	2.3	4973	10	69.56	1	14.51	61.96	94
14985	11.02	2.29	5044	10.5	69.94	1	14.65	61.57	94
15156	11.02	2.28	5050	10.5	69.56	1	14.65	61.18	96
15344	11.02	2.29	5116	10.5	72.03	1	14.51	61.18	96
15531	11.02	2.25	5130	10.5	71.13	1	14.51	61.18	96
15735	11.02	2.24	5130	11.5	70.28	1	14.36	60.39	98
15906	11.02	2.24	5154	11.5	70.37	1	14.36	60.39	98
16094	11.02	2.24	5201	11.5	72.12	0.5	14.36	60.39	98
16297	11.02	2.25	5212	11.5	72.82	0.5	14.36	60.39	98
16469	11.02	2.24	5252	11.5	72.82	1	14.36	60.39	98
16672	11.02	2.21	5270	11.5	71.96	1	14.22	60.39	100
16860	11.02	2.2	5349	11.5	73.04	1	14.22	60.39	100
17047	11.02	2.2	5342	11.5	74.65	1	14.22	60.39	101
17235	11.02	2.23	5361	12	74.44	1	14.36	60.39	101
17422	11.02	2.24	5403	12	74.93	0.5	14.22	60.39	101
17610	11.02	2.2	5427	11.5	75.25	0.5	14.22	60.39	103
17797	11.02	2.21	5435	11.5	75.36	0.5	14.22	60.39	103
18000	11.02	2.24	5490	11.5	77.3	0.5	14.22	60.39	104
18188	11.02	2.16	5555	11.5	75.85	0.5	14.22	60.39	104
18375	11.02	2.19	5593	13.5	77.55	2	14.22	60.39	104
18563	11.02	2.22	5555	13.5	77.03	2	14.22	60.39	106
18750	11.02	2.16	5635	13	78.14	2	14.07	60.39	106
18938	11.02	2.12	5656	13	76.02	2	13.35	54.9	107
19141	11.02	2.08	5626	14	74.42	2	11.32	7.06	107
19328	11.02	0.66	5756	34.5	28.24	0	-1.6	1.18	107
19516	11.37	0.22	5357	11.5	8	0	-7.84	0	108
19688	16.88	0.25	4947	11.5	0	0	-8.13	0	108
19891	25.61	0.28	4360	11.5	0	0	-7.84	0	109
20094	26.07	0.29	3994	11.5	0	0	-7.69	0	109
20281	25.84	0.3	3546	11.5	0	0	-7.55	0	109

Last edited by paintbing; 10-02-2008 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:28 AM   #18
Haelan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glanga View Post
I thought it was the other way around, I thought the bad A/F causes a constant open loop cycle.

I replaced mine at 102,000 miles.
If the ECU recognizes the O2 is faulty ie. triggers a CEL, then yes the car will revert to open loop as a fail safe. If the ECU assumes nothing is wrong with the front O2 it will still attempt closed-loop fueling.

paintbing, are you seeing consistent 14.7 AFR when just cruising around in closed-loop? From the log it looks like you were slightly rich before you WOT.

Last edited by Haelan; 10-02-2008 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:43 AM   #19
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I will have to re-check my a/f ratio, but I borrowed the tactrix cable so I cannot check until I get it again.
However, I have noticed that daily cruising on the freeway my EGT's are ~1325 F, now in the last week they have jumped to 1400 F... I get frequently backfiring in stop/go traffic, and city driving. I feel that I am a little too rich, but the rising egt's indicate a leaning out situation... Not sure where to go at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
You may also want to look at the cam or crank sensors. They're magnetically coupled to the shafts to produce their readings. These sensors can lose their ability to read correctly over time (magnets lose their fields). I'm almost willing to bet that's causing your misfire codes.
How would one go about testing these sensors to see if they are working correctly? Do we run an ohm test on them?

I am almost to the point in giving it to the stealership to diagnose, but since I have the EJ257 in here instead of the 2.0, I figure they will start guessing and charge me up the rear to start swapping parts.

Last edited by paintbing; 10-02-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintbing View Post
How would one go about testing these sensors to see if they are working correctly? Do we run an ohm test on them?
If you're afterfiring it sure sounds like you're running rich (or actually misfiring)...

As for the cam/crank sensors, the only way I know of to test them is to use an oscilloscope and look for the correct numbers of pulses in a given time frame. Not something easily accomplished especially if you don't have a scope or know how to adjust one.

You can always try swapping for a known good one or see if you can get a cheapy from the car part out for sale thread.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:04 PM   #21
G Langa
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I threw a P0031 code. Which is front o2 heater circuit low. I had been misfiring for a few weeks in different cylinders and it throw a code each time. Then finally the codes for all 4 cylinders misfiring came up. Cleared all of them, then soon after I got the o2 sensor code. I changed that out and haven't gotten a cylinder misfire code since and it runs a lot smoother. The exhaust was popping off a lot more than usual too and I was also running rich which I could tell by the extra build up on the exhaust pipe.

When I pulled it, the sensor housing had a lot of carbon build up on it. I tried for a month to get a used sensor from a part out but no luck. I figured if the first lasted 100,000 miles I might as well get a new one and have it last another 100,000 instead of buying a used sensor blindly.
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:09 PM   #22
paintbing
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^ Thanks! I just wish my car would throw a code that really identifies the culprit.
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