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Old 10-03-2008, 12:18 PM   #1
01gtlimited
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Exclamation 2.5 n/a -> 2.5 n/a - no start

here's the short story. instead of doing head gaskets, timing kit, etc. on a 110k mile engine in my '01 legacy, i happened across a used '02 impreza rs engine with 38k. got the new engine installed last night. i swapped in the intake mani from the old engine onto the '02, with the wiring harness and entire fuel system intact. essentially, the only thing that has changed is the block, its contents and its sensors.

after everything was back together, went to start it and it won't fire. cranks just fine, but it appears to be getting no spark. can't say whether it's getting fuel or not. was curious if anyone had any insight. my first hunch is to swap the crank/cam sensors from the old motor, just in case that makes a difference. to anyone's knowledge, is there any sort of immobilizer built in to the legacy ecu? i'm grasping at straws at the moment, on 2 and a half hours of sleep after having thrown in the towel on this debacle last night around 5. any insight would be helpful.
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:45 PM   #2
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There is no immobilizer. Recheck all of your grounds, and the main coilpack plug. Recheck EVERYTHING you unplugged once, then check all connectors, even the ones you didn't check, again. Then swap out cam/crank sensors.

What is the condition of the vehicle the motor is from?
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:51 PM   #3
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u went from a ej25e to a ej251?
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:00 PM   #4
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Where both engines out of cars with the same type transmission M/T or A/T.
If not make sure the crank sensor trigger wheel (or what ever you call it) are the same, Auto/ Manual tranny cars may be different, it is on some model years not sure about this application.
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:15 PM   #5
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one ground that i neglected to label is that one that goes to the firewall just inboard of the brake booster. i have the other end grounded, but i don't know if it's in a good place for the proper grounding. anyone recall where it is supposed to go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastenova View Post
What is the condition of the vehicle the motor is from?
i can only assume the car was wrecked. i got the engine only, from a reputable salvage yard out of state. they claimed that the engine was in running condition when it came out of the car, compression tested good and also ran on their test stand. i can't imagine that there could be much wrong with it, as i'm only using the block/internals. it seems to crank over very smoothly and evenly, and i turned it over by hand and can feel that it's building plenty of compression. the intake, harness and fuel system are all still the originals from my car.

my first tasks tomorrow when i'm back at the car will be to properly ground that strap and swap the sensors, and recheck all connections.
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John*G View Post
Where both engines out of cars with the same type transmission M/T or A/T.
If not make sure the crank sensor trigger wheel (or what ever you call it) are the same, Auto/ Manual tranny cars may be different, it is on some model years not sure about this application.
John
my lego is an m/t and the engine was from an auto. one of the other things i'm going to do tomorrow is pull both crank sensors off and see if i can peer into the mounting hole and turn the engine over by hand to see if i can discern any difference in the trigger wheels. if they are different, i might just explode.

all the searching i did on here netted me no info on the possible differences in phase II ej25's crank/cam sensing circuits. however, everything i did find indicated that phase IIs are relatively plug and play, provided you maintain the intake/fuel system. i know that the IAT and MAP setups are different between the m/t and a/ts.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:56 AM   #7
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If you basically just swapped shortblocks, it should run as long as you hooked everything up correctly. I do not beleive the crank sprockets are different between the sohc motors. I swapped my stock EJ22 crank sprocket onto an EJ25D block and used EJ25 SOHC heads, runs great.

Are you sure you put the timing belt on correctly, if you are off more than 1-2 teeth it might not fire at all.


~Josh~
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:35 AM   #8
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From what I gathered he didn't touch the timing belt - just swapped his intake onto the already-intact "new" engine.

I presume you cycled the key a few times to get the fuel system primed? Even after doing that it still takes a few seconds of cranking to get the engine to start that first time in my experience.

I don't think you'll find any difference in the crank or cam trigger patterns for MT vs AT. I've never heard of such a difference, and there are plenty of people who have done swaps with used engines without any issues.

Which end of the ground wire is disconnected? The engine end or the firewall end?

Pat Olsen
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
From what I gathered he didn't touch the timing belt - just swapped his intake onto the already-intact "new" engine.

I presume you cycled the key a few times to get the fuel system primed? Even after doing that it still takes a few seconds of cranking to get the engine to start that first time in my experience.

I don't think you'll find any difference in the crank or cam trigger patterns for MT vs AT. I've never heard of such a difference, and there are plenty of people who have done swaps with used engines without any issues.

Which end of the ground wire is disconnected? The engine end or the firewall end?

Pat Olsen
i cycled the fuel pump 3 or 4 times to prime it. after that i cranked it several times, anywhere from 3 to 8 seconds.

the engine end of the ground wire is disconnected. i couldn't remember where the engine end went, so i grounded it to the top of the block, near the bellhousing. i'm just wondering if i have an issue where something critical has too much ground resistance and is being finicky. don't know how likely that is, but i've seen stranger things.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:44 PM   #10
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are the fuel feed and return lines swapped? feed should be the top one
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:05 PM   #11
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we just identified one problem. the coil pack seems to have inexplicably gone bad sometime between when the engine came out and this past thursday. according to the chilton manual, the primary coils should measure 1-2 ohms, between pins 1 & 2 and 2 & 4. one of them is reading 1.2 Mohms and the other is open. no combination of the pins gives us any reading close to the 1-2 ohms specified. so i have advance auto parts overnighting a coil from kansas city (of course, nobody has one in omaha or council bluffs) and it'll go on tomorrow, after being similarly tested.

we're going to keep checking things to make sure they're working correctly. the old cam and crank sensors have the same resistance as the new pieces, and everything is plugged in properly. we checked ground resistance from several points on the engine/intake and they were all around 1 ohm or less. we're going to button it back up and throw a test light in place of an injector to make sure we have injector pulse, which should also verify we have crank/cam signal. here's hopin'.
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Old 10-04-2008, 08:10 PM   #12
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I'm betting that the crank timing gear is different. While you're waiting for that coil to come in, pop the center covers off and have a look.
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
I'm betting that the crank timing gear is different. While you're waiting for that coil to come in, pop the center covers off and have a look.
i think i just might have to. tomorrow afternoon it is!
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Old 10-05-2008, 01:03 PM   #14
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I swapped a '01 2.5RS motor into our '00 Outback. It sure ran like puke. It didn't start after than. THEN I changed BOTH crank and cam sprokets and VOILA!!!!
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Old 10-05-2008, 07:23 PM   #15
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I'd bet it is the cam sprockets(driver side, metal one). Swap it out for the one in the 01 engine. Look at the back of the cam sprockets, if the bumps on the sprocket that the cam sensor pick up are different, that's the problem.
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:59 AM   #16
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that indeed was the problem. he took pictures of both the cam and crank sprockets (both sets, so we can all see the differences), and they are VERY different. this would have been fantastic information for us to have before the engine was in the car, but oh well, live and learn.

he drove it home tonight. i expect him to post in the next couple of days.

-Mike
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:14 PM   #17
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here are the crank and cam sprockets from the '01 m/t engine



and the same, from the '02 a/t engine



all wrong!

also, once i got ahold of that new coil, it tested exactly the same as the old one, leading us to conclude that the book is dumb and wrong. it's going back to the store. i'd keep it around, but that's a hundred-some bucks that i could sure use back. anyway, it runs, so now i need to finish up the rest of the work i have planned before it gets too bloody cold. i'll be making a summary post over in the legacy forum.
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:17 PM   #18
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Glad that it's back up and running good. I know this doesn't help now, after the fact....but the differences in the crank pulley have been posted a few times over the years. Sorry you didn't catch it before the motor went in.

Jay Storm
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:22 PM   #19
01gtlimited
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like nesw20 said, live and learn. i suppose i could've found it if i'd searched longer, but it gets tiresome. anyway, now i have more character-building life experience!
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:30 AM   #20
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I think this might be my same problem if someone wants to hear me out. My car is a 02 m/t 2.5rs, motor went bad, swapped in a 05 outback motor(was m/t), swapped intake(05 was dbw), crank and cam sensors. Engine turns over fine, but it throws a cam shaft position malfunction code, and doesn't allow it to fire. So i have a feeling after reading this chances are my cam sprockets are different?

IF so should i change them out, or could i buy a later model ecu?
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:20 AM   #21
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It would be easier/cheaper/quicker to simply reuse the cam/crank gears from the old motor.

Jay
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:44 AM   #22
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Do you think that is my problem?
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:49 PM   #23
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No...I really just wanted to send you on a wild goose chase....
Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezkid View Post
Do you think that is my problem?
Now.....go check your timing gears like other before you have....and get back to us.

Jay
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