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Old 06-24-2008, 12:17 AM   #1
e11ys
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Default Reasons for not hitting target boost...

Okay, so I finally got my gutted uppipe installed and was comfortable flashing to stage 2. I used the "base" stage 2 map for an '04 WRX off of osecuroms.org...it made a huge difference. Definitely pulls harder, and when I logged it it looked like all the parameters were right where they needed to be. Only thing is, I'm only hitting about 13.8-14 psi. I think target for this map is 15.58. The only thing I'm not currently running is a K&N panel filter (still have the Subaru paper filter in). Would this account for the lower than target boost I'm seeing right now? I'm really not very worried, as I'm using this to hold me off until I get a proper tune. Just curious as to what would cause this. Thanks,

-E
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:18 AM   #2
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Using a generic tune causes this.You have to take in account ambient temps,altitude and humididty.That map was made from a totally different car at a different time of year with different envoirmental conditions.Plus there are about another 100 variables I could include like you reusing the old gaskets on your up-pipe and having a slight preturbo exhaust leak or your car having weaker compression than the other one.Maybe you have a slight boost leak somewhere.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:41 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Using a generic tune causes this.You have to take in account ambient temps,altitude and humididty.That map was made from a totally different car at a different time of year with different envoirmental conditions.Plus there are about another 100 variables I could include like you reusing the old gaskets on your up-pipe and having a slight preturbo exhaust leak or your car having weaker compression than the other one.Maybe you have a slight boost leak somewhere.
I had a feeling it could be a number of things. I'm thinking the fact that it is in the 90's around here right now probably has a lot to do with it. I will definitely go check for leaks today when I get off. I'm pretty anal about making sure everything is secure, but I guess there's always that possibility. Thanks for the suggestions!
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:14 PM   #4
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I had trouble hitting target boost as well - a GM BCS really helped me (04 STi).
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:03 PM   #5
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I'm still not sold on the aftermarket BCS solenoids...

With a tdo4, vf39, and a green, I've been able to hit target boost just fine, as long as the targets I set are feasible (spool) and efficient (high rpm boost).

If you want to hit those targets you'll need to tune the WGDC and possibly adjust the turbo dynamics.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:28 PM   #6
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Another quick question: I have seen a couple instances where people have suggested adjusting the wastegate arm to help hit the target boost. I'm not so sure I want to do this with a generic tune...would I be risking anything by adjusting it without tuning specifically for the adjustment? Oh, and the GM bcs is definitely going on eventually...
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx580 View Post
Another quick question: I have seen a couple instances where people have suggested adjusting the wastegate arm to help hit the target boost. I'm not so sure I want to do this with a generic tune...would I be risking anything by adjusting it without tuning specifically for the adjustment? Oh, and the GM bcs is definitely going on eventually...
adjusting the arm will help it stay shut longer, just dont tighten to much a few turns and thats it. i cant justify putting a gm part on my car! try moding you wgdc should help as well. are you running a upgraded intercooler? air intake temps will directly affect boost too!
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:39 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ronzogonzo View Post
adjusting the arm will help it stay shut longer, just dont tighten to much a few turns and thats it. i cant justify putting a gm part on my car! try moding you wgdc should help as well. are you running a upgraded intercooler? air intake temps will directly affect boost too!
Nope, running the stocker. I have a feeling the (very) hot outside air is probably the main culprit here. I'll test it out tonight after it cools off and see if it makes any difference.

As for the GM BCS...I've heard too much good to not take advantage of it. Plus, we have to show at least some support for our domestic auto companies, right? I'll consider it my $70-$80 contribution to the cause
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by wrx580 View Post

As for the GM BCS...I've heard too much good to not take advantage of it. Plus, we have to show at least some support for our domestic auto companies, right? I'll consider it my $70-$80 contribution to the cause

no gm


only japan

from what i understand boost should be more stable with a aftermarket bcs but I really haven't had any issues and im pushing 16-17 psi on td04
save yer money and buy somethin else
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ronzogonzo View Post
no gm


only japan

from what i understand boost should be more stable with a aftermarket bcs but I really haven't had any issues and im pushing 16-17 psi on td04
save yer money and buy somethin else
Any alternative BCS options you can recommend me?
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:58 PM   #11
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If you have plans for EWG, the BEST option is a 4-port solenoid from Grainger. Search for Freon's post on it. (you can still use it without ewg)

If you don't plan on EWG, and must have an interrupt style BCS, the GM is great. But the stock ECU with an aftermarket solenoid isn't going to be as good as a nice standalone BCS.

IMO, 3-port interrupt style setups are superior, but it just isn't worth it.

Another setup worth looking into is a hybrid MBC + EBCS. You get maximum spool with the MBC, but no partial throttle full boost thanks to the EBCS.

Last edited by fujiillin; 06-25-2008 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fujiillin View Post
If you have plans for EWG, the BEST option is a 4-port solenoid from McMaster Carr. Search for Freon's post on it. (you can still use it without ewg)

If you don't plan on EWG, and must have an interrupt style BCS, the GM is great. But the stock ECU with an aftermarket solenoid isn't going to be as good as a nice standalone BCS.

IMO, 3-port interrupt style setups are superior, but it just isn't worth it.

Another setup worth looking into is a hybrid MBC + EBCS. You get maximum spool with the MBC, but no partial throttle full boost thanks to the EBCS.

I just got a great deal on a ewg setup, the setup being a turbo xs up pipe with dump tube and tial 44mm ext.wastegate. with running that setup on a td04 other than it being open 90% of the time would it be wise to run a aftermarket bcs? what as far as tuning do I need to change, wgdc ect.. Im thinking of going with a much quieter exhaust(I'm running invidia g200 with no resonator and a invidia downpipe.) because of the noise from the ewg. do you think 44mm is to big?
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Old 06-24-2008, 05:45 PM   #13
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The 44 won't provide boost control as precise as the 38 on such a small turbo, but it should do just fine.. quieter too.

You certainly won't need a 4 port which allows you to use the maximum pressure gradient available to hold the gate shut or open at the cost of a little precision. However, you can always run it just like a 3-port until you need the functionality of 4.

I'd start with the 2-port and see how it goes. Run a T off the compressor to the top and bottom ports of the gate, and put the solenoid in the line to the top. Since the whole setup is changed, I'd zero WGDC and tune from there. If the boost is too high at zero, go 3 or 4 port. You could change springs, but the 3 / 4 will give you more control in the end.

Cobb has a really good pdf on this with pictures and descriptions of different bcs setups in their forums.

Last edited by fujiillin; 06-24-2008 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fujiillin View Post
The 44 won't provide boost control as precise as the 38 on such a small turbo, but it should do just fine.. quieter too.

You certainly won't need a 4 port which allows you to use the maximum pressure gradient available to hold the gate shut or open at the cost of a little precision. However, you can always run it just like a 3-port until you need the functionality of 4.

I'd start with the 2-port and see how it goes. Run a T off the compressor to the top and bottom ports of the gate, and put the solenoid in the line to the top. Since the whole setup is changed, I'd zero WGDC and tune from there. If the boost is too high at zero, go 3 or 4 port. You could change springs, but the 3 / 4 will give you more control in the end.

Cobb has a really good pdf on this with pictures and descriptions of different bcs setups in their forums.
thanks for the good info


sorry bout the hijack i'll buy ya a beer!
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ronzogonzo View Post
thanks for the good info


sorry bout the hijack i'll buy ya a beer!
Or you could just Paypal me some beer money...

Just kiddin...anyway, I'll post up after I drive some tonight when it cools off...
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:32 PM   #16
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I wanted to add my $0.02 to the BCS talk.

I think the Grainger part that is the same solenoid as the perrin ebcs is great and identical in function to the GM part and easier to find.
The advantages of the 3 port BCS (GM,Perrin,etc.)are more than just holding high boost levels. You will get better spool as well. No messing around with different pills in the vacuum lines. And for a $35 part from Grainger it is more than worth it. And you can add a MBC and run a parallel boost control setup(super easy to tune).

As far as adjusting wastegate arms. It shouldn't be used to control boost. It is just a band-aid for proper tuning. Boost is not that hard to tune. Anybody can at least hit target boost. If you had the skills to flash your ROM on your computer you can tune boost. Turbo dynamics is a little more difficult but you will get better spool up when things are worked out.

I used a generic OTS tune when I first flash while i was learning to tune. I hit a whopping 14.5 PSI tapering down to 11 at redline with a VF30 on my 02. They are in fact just base tunes that need to be adjusted.

Last edited by eminehart; 06-25-2008 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:39 PM   #17
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Adjusting WG arms is more than just a band-aid treatment. If your WG is blowing open prematurely, and your WG arm can be adjusted, it can help actually fix the problem.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcblues View Post
Adjusting WG arms is more than just a band-aid treatment. If your WG is blowing open prematurely, and your WG arm can be adjusted, it can help actually fix the problem.
Yes, but blowing open from what?
Exhaust gas? I've heard of this, but haven't experienced it yet at 20 PSI.
Boost Solenoid? Definitely. In my experience the stock solenoid can only bleed off 16-17 PSI before the pressure starts to open the wastegate.

So tightening the arm to compensate for the boost solenoid is a band-aid.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:43 PM   #19
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In my opinion, the stock BCS works fine if the WGDC is tuned aggressively. Unfortunately, the 16 bit ecu needs a little more conservatism to prevent overboosting under other conditions because it doesn't have as many tables as the 32 bit ecus.

Here's a chart of a stock BCS TD04 with wastegate set to 7.5 psi. Patm = 14.1 psi. I believe the temperature was around 70 to 75.

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Old 06-25-2008, 03:53 PM   #20
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That tune used a 1.0 mm restrictor pill.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by eminehart View Post
I wanted to add my $0.02 to the BCS talk.

I think the Grainger part that is the same solenoid as the perrin ebcs is great and identical in function to the GM part and easier to find.
The GM (General Motors aka AC Delco) can be found/ordered at/from any GM dealership.Not sure why it would be hard to find unless your Stevie Wonder . Costs a whopping $15.
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #22
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ooops

Last edited by eminehart; 06-25-2008 at 05:21 PM. Reason: double post
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
The GM (General Motors aka AC Delco) can be found/ordered at/from any GM dealership.Not sure why it would be hard to find unless your Stevie Wonder . Costs a whopping $15.
All the local dealers I called had to order it. A few online places I found didn't even have it in stock. I have a Grainger by my work so it was quicker.
I was also responding to people saying they didn't want a GM part on there car.

The wastegate arm should be adjusted if the wastegate won't stay closed. I have seen too many people trying to control boost with it. I know a lot of people use it as an autocross cheater trick. If you have the ability to tune boost why not do it with the software?
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by fujiillin View Post
I'm still not sold on the aftermarket BCS solenoids...

With a tdo4, vf39, and a green, I've been able to hit target boost just fine, as long as the targets I set are feasible (spool) and efficient (high rpm boost).

If you want to hit those targets you'll need to tune the WGDC and possibly adjust the turbo dynamics.
The BCS on our '06+ WRX's is much better then the 2.0L's. Have you ever tried tuning a 2.0L WRX with the stock solenoid? They rarely are able to hit over 15 PSI without tightening the WG arm a ton, and I agree with some of the other people in this thread, that turning the WG arm is a bandaid and compromises your boost control.

For the extra $30, I make pretty much all of the local 2.0L's I tune buy one.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bullwinkle1983 View Post
The BCS on our '06+ WRX's is much better then the 2.0L's. Have you ever tried tuning a 2.0L WRX with the stock solenoid? They rarely are able to hit over 15 PSI without tightening the WG arm a ton, and I agree with some of the other people in this thread, that turning the WG arm is a bandaid and compromises your boost control.

For the extra $30, I make pretty much all of the local 2.0L's I tune buy one.
Note taken, although the issue might lie in the wastegate actuator itself (low psi spring) combined with the nature of a bleed style BCS.

Sadly, the only 2.0 I've touched was @ stock boost

Also... the GM with pigtail might be 30, but the nice premair 4 port at grainger is only 41

Last edited by fujiillin; 06-25-2008 at 07:26 PM.
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