Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday August 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-25-2008, 09:22 AM   #1
JonR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22753
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: East TN
Vehicle:
2002 PSM WRX +PPG
OBXT

Default New tune EJ205 TD06-20G + meth...problems...need ideas!

UPDATE: Had turbo issues and retuned; see post 15 and below.

Well, my quest is to go for 11's on the stock EJ205 or blow it up trying so I had a FP TD06H-20G and SMC meth injection tuned by Scott Siegel at Topspeed this last week. Here are the graphs:



Run 001 is baseline with only 15PSI
Run 12 is pump 93
Run 23 is meth

AFR's were 11.2 or so. Peak boost for meth is 23 or so PSI. On the street the turbo reaches full boost around 3600 RPM which is actually BETTER than my previous 18G thanks to the tune.

Everything went great with the pump 93 map and he actually was wondering if I'd had head work done because the motor put down 15WHP more than he'd ever seen with a TMIC (302 WHP/ 299 WTQ). So of course I was expecting an easy 350WHP with 75:25 MeOH, but although he got ~25WTQ more out of it, no matter what he did we couldn't push much more power out of it.

After talking with Doug and Cobb Tuning and trying a bunch of things including intakes, etc., he figures it is actually a poorly balanced turbo which is hitting an RPM limit and not allowing us to push any more air into the engine. And before anyone asks, yes it was compression tested and was 150 all around. There really aren't any other restrictions that should be holding it back that we could think of...frustrating!

Scott says he has sometimes seen these turbos break in and improve after a couple of months use, so we'll see if that's the case. I drove it to Atlanta Dragway that very night but it was sold out, so I'll get it to Bristol sometime later this week and see how it runs. Anyone else ever had an issue with FP turbos being unbalanced?

Just want to give credit to Scott though...he worked long hours on this car and was great with communication. The car runs great and is more smooth than ever. I highly recommend him. Sometimes you have all the right tools but just get held back. 350WHP on this dyno yielded an 11.7, so maybe I'll be close to 11's with this tune. If not, not sure where to go next since proving it's a turbo problem means sending the turbo back to FP.

Relevant mods:
EJ205 93K miles
FP TD06H-20G
SMC meth injection, Spec C trunk tank
BPM GT TBE, catless
Catless uppipe
Deatschwerks 750's
Walbro 255
APS inlet
Stock intake
APS fuel rails
Ebay TMIC
Prodrive IC hose
1 step colder NGK coppers
DIY gasket matched manifolds
APS splitter/STI scoop
Koyo radiator/Crucial thermostat

PPG Straight 1-2/Helical 3-4 Syncro gears
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by JonR; 08-28-2008 at 05:09 PM.
JonR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 10:01 AM   #2
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Should have went with a TD05H-20G much better balanced for a 2.0L.

I'm not impressed with the numbers at all BUT numbers don't tell the whole story. You being happy with the tune is the most important part.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 11:21 AM   #3
98EJ20
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 163184
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NEPA
Vehicle:
98 Swapped Impreza
Red

Default

Those numbers look pretty low for running a 20g @23psi. Someone posted a big16g with 325ish awhp.
98EJ20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 11:27 AM   #4
PolarisSnT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85905
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Staten Island
Vehicle:
2004 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by testes1010 View Post
Should have went with a TD05H-20G much better balanced for a 2.0L.

I'm not impressed with the numbers at all BUT numbers don't tell the whole story. You being happy with the tune is the most important part.
Still full boost by 3600 RPMs is great. What is the spool of the TD05 like?
PolarisSnT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 11:39 AM   #5
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

True, 3600 is too good to be true actually, that why its hard for me to believe its a TD06 when you consider the spool & the 'less than impressive' numbers its producing. Most STi barely get the TD06s to full spool by that point.

The TD05H roughly the same spoolwise, but this is the difference(granted its not the same exact dyno, but it reads very very close to standard Dynojets):

My TD05H-20G on meth vs. 93 pump both @ 24psi TMIC & EWG:
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 11:48 AM   #6
PolarisSnT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85905
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Staten Island
Vehicle:
2004 WRX

Default

Wow those are some impressive numbers testes! You have really gained a substantial amount of power out of that turbo. Are you self tuning it?
PolarisSnT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 01:12 PM   #7
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PolarisSnT View Post
Are you self tuning it?
Yup, there is very little left to be had on the pump map, the meth map could be worked to get a few more ponies out of it.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 01:16 PM   #8
wrxhard
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108091
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Fargo, ND
Vehicle:
2002 WRX

Default

Do you know how your 18g did on this dyno?
wrxhard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 01:19 PM   #9
nicholam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 133936
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: In the far far north.
Vehicle:
2005 WRX Wagon
Stage 4 Silver

Default

How do you like that SMC kit? I have one sitting on my shelf waiting for a tune.
nicholam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 01:53 PM   #10
JonR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22753
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: East TN
Vehicle:
2002 PSM WRX +PPG
OBXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
Do you know how your 18g did on this dyno?
No, last 18G tune was on another less well known dyno with way inflated numbers. I have seen a couple of other cars tuned on the Topspeed dyno and what they have trapped. Based on that, I would predict I'll trap somewhere close to 110-112 but both Scott and I are hoping for higher traps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholam View Post
How do you like that SMC kit? I have one sitting on my shelf waiting for a tune.
SMC is apparently very easy to use and tune. Not the most sophisticated system on the market, but many use it and it seems to be reliably built. They are apparently working on a failsafe which will integrate with it as well.
JonR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 01:58 PM   #11
wrxhard
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108091
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Fargo, ND
Vehicle:
2002 WRX

Default

So you say it spools faster, would you say it also feels stronger than your 18g? Sorry for the whole inquisition

edit: N.M. I just realized how stupid of a question that was... my bad
wrxhard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 02:07 PM   #12
JonR
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22753
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: East TN
Vehicle:
2002 PSM WRX +PPG
OBXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
So you say it spools faster, would you say it also feels stronger than your 18g? Sorry for the whole inquisition

edit: N.M. I just realized how stupid of a question that was... my bad
No good question because you just can't compare dyno to dyno easily.

I would say if I had to guess the 18G tune (pump gas only) I had before-if it was on Topspeed's dyno-probably would have put down 25-30HP less (based on butt dyno alone). I can tell you the TD05-18G spooled about the same time as this 20G based on my logs but I think that was more the tune...Scott does a good job getting bigger turbos to spool.

CN: this 20G seems to spool the same or close to the same as my old TD05-18G but with noticeably more topend.
JonR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2008, 02:51 PM   #13
karl750
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 100977
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Columbus,OH
Vehicle:
2004 VF30 WRX
12.96@103.7mph 1.84 60'

Default

I think it looks good! You've got good spool and a lot of usable power. I think the PPGs will help too. When are you headed to the track?
karl750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2008, 02:14 PM   #14
evilomen76
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173809
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
Black

Default

I talked to Turbo xs and they said the spool time between the 18g and the 20g 7cm is only 300rpm's.
evilomen76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 08:12 PM   #15
siegelracing
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 45173
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
1999 2.5 RS
White&Gold All-Suspension

Default

Okay, so we chalked this up to a turbo that was hitting an rpm limit due to imbalance. We have seen this a few times with vf30/34's and they're fine up to a normal pump gas limit, then refuse to make much more than that even race gas/meth. The turbo would not make 18 psi at redline even with the line off the actuator.

The customer actually brought this back to us to pull the turbo and send back to FP to see about balance. That turbo balanced out at 35% of the max tolerance (max per manufacturer is 2 in/gm and it was .73 in.gm or something). After a long talk with FP they agreed to send us a new TD06H setup (thank you FP))

We just ran that turbo and it holds more boost, but the dyno is almost IDENTICAL I have wracked my brain, and called a number of other friendly tuners and we're at a loss. What can make it run great at pump gas level, then gain almost nothing when adding 75/25 meth water, turning up the boost 3+ psi, adding up to 4 degrees of timing in places and leaning it out 0.8 afr???

I'm quite confident that there is not something in the tuning, so I'll even post a log. Please remember, this is on an Ebay TMIC on a 96k mile 2.0 liter in a 90+ degree shop. The wastegate is at 100%, but we could tighten the actuator arm a bit, but I don't think it will help. A FMIC and cooler air would allow more timing than this, but this should still make WAY more power than it is:

siegelracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 08:18 PM   #16
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

what was your g/sec on pump vs. g/sec on meth mix?

I'm going to go out on limb and say the bpv/bov is cracking open.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 08:48 PM   #17
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

^^ Wouldnt that make it run really rich? And be seen on the wideband? The turbo would be pushing 23psi but the motor is only seeing 18?

Some other things to check
- compression (it is a high mileage motor)
- exhaust leak
- wastegate (which you already commented on)

Only picking up 10whp with +3psi, 4* timing and 0.8 is bad.

This is what was happening on my car when the intercooler hose was coming off the turbo. Clark upped the wgdc, timing and lowered the MAF and it didnt make anymore power.
It would seem there would have to be a boost leak somewhere.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 10:21 PM   #18
siegelracing
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 45173
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
1999 2.5 RS
White&Gold All-Suspension

Default

I could accept that if it went rich at peak boost (bigger leak from more pressure)... It holds near 23 psi down low, a leak wouldn't be worse at 19psi at 6k...

Good thoughts, keep 'em coming.
siegelracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 11:40 PM   #19
Junior2JZ
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 64908
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Tuning 8/9sec Subies @ P&L
Vehicle:
10.8 XT+10.0@143 GR+
2x9.0@170mph GTRs

Default

Old motor floating valves on higher boost? I have had cars with high miles float valves @ higher boost levels. Springs are weak, etc.
Drop the mid pipe and see if it picks up.
Could be a boost leak.. a td06 20g wont have problems holding 20-24psi even with a leak on a 2.0.
Junior2JZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 12:22 AM   #20
treystoys
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97436
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Metairie, Louisiana
Vehicle:
03 WRX stage 2.2
white/w/ce28n's

Default

Maybe Doug could dig up my chart from them it was awhile back. At the time, I had an evo3 16g with an avo top mount on my ej205. Scott this is Trey Adams from Louisiana, Allen Polizzi's (06sti gt35r) friend. This may not be relivent to the op's entire situation, but it'll give you something to shoot for.

Quote:
On his Dynojet, the car baselined (with the 289/276 EL tune still on the ecu) at 320/301, after Doug was finished, the car made 336/321 on 21psi and 93 octane, Doug said my car was the strongest pump gas only 16g car he'd tuned.
Scott...you guys need to add a header to this car, my ej205 literally came alive after a simple gt-spec header install...and I'm talking real seat of the pants gain...even more so with a matching diameter upipe and ported turbo inlet. My set up above was on 93 octane alone running less boost, and way less turbo...people seem to disagree with the headers on these motors, but I've seen them work too well, on to many cars near me...the oe manifolds are limiting. I'd be shocked if he does not gain a minimum of 25 whp AND 25 wtq (guessing way more for you guys on meth and the 20g) That turbos only going to put out whats being put into it.

Just a thought...lol...hopefully he still has the oe manifolds, or I'll put both feet in my mouth!

good luck

Trey
treystoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 07:04 AM   #21
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ Wouldnt that make it run really rich? And be seen on the wideband? The turbo would be pushing 23psi but the motor is only seeing 18?
I've tested this on my own car before. I typically run 24psi from 3700rpm all the way to redline on a TD05H-20G w/ a APS BPV. I put on a unmodded stock bpv on it, boost dropped to 22-23psi with a slight taper toward redline BUT my maf-v went from 4.80 to ~4.55 peak or so.

My fuel did not richen up because of a couple reasons, (1) I run a BPV, its a closed loop recirc system, and (2) how my Fuel table is setup(11.3:1 from 2.0g/rev Load & up) where my load dropped with the stock bpv but it was still above 2.0g/rev.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 09:30 AM   #22
akira02rex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 82612
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2015 WRX STI
Ice Silver Metallic

Default

I say its a boost leak related to the blow off/bypass valve.
akira02rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 10:02 AM   #23
c'dalerider
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92388
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Pennsylvania
Vehicle:
04 WRX, 06 STI
wrb x 2,900awhp combo

Default

my .02...i agree with the otheres posting that it is exhaust related. A header AND bigger exhaust outlet will help a LOT. Just to constricting to get more flow.
Also, that turbo runs out of room pretty quick on that setup with a TMIC....pushs hot air, car/ecu reacts negativly.
BUT, it looks like a very fun driving car. The it will be a high 11 second car with that trany. Just drive her and be happy with what you got..ha.
c'dalerider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 10:27 AM   #24
crashtke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120912
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Couple questions Scott...is he using a factory ebcs? Also, what turbo inlet is he using? Is it a hard pipe on the underside of the ebay intercooler or one of those silicon y pipes?
crashtke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 10:29 AM   #25
siegelracing
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 45173
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
1999 2.5 RS
White&Gold All-Suspension

Default

The header and UP are JDM STi - which are bigger than USDM EJ257. The rest of the exhaust is truly 3" straight through... It seems to be liking getting leaned out even further than I was running it, and it will pull clean with a hosed-down TMIC, but I doubt that it will be okay that lean on the street... (321+ whp so far)

Siegel
siegelracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: TX BRAND NEW IN BOX TD06-20G Turbo brooklyngenius TXIC Private Classifieds 18 03-15-2010 09:52 AM
FS: TX BRAND NEW IN BOX TD06-20G Turbo brooklyngenius Engine/Power/Exhaust 19 03-10-2010 07:39 PM
2008 WRX 337HP / 344 TQ TD06 20g, Avo TMIC, 50/50 Meth, 92 Pump Amnizu Proven Power Bragging 32 09-18-2009 11:57 AM
FS CT: Element Tuning TD06 20G 900 miles bulletSTI Engine/Power/Exhaust 7 05-28-2008 02:05 PM
New EJ205 20G/meth build...aiming for easy 11's. JonR Proven Power Bragging 5 02-11-2008 07:51 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.