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Old 10-03-2008, 11:16 AM   #1
Kastley85891
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Default Three COBB maps dynoed with AP DYNO

Posted this in the tuning section but thought some guys here may be interested. Will post up the PERRIN map when I get it.

So for those who care or have interest, went out today in my Wifes 08 STI.
Modded only with an Invidia Catted DP, wrapped and coated stock headers and an AP, 93 oct in the Texas sea level 95d temp.

Flashed each map in turn, idles for about two or three mins, couple of light pulls, then a third gear dyno on the same piece of road, 2500 rpm to 6600 rpm. (3rd gear pull), latest firmware etc etc.

Map/Roms from
COBB OTS Stage two 93 oct.
Surgeline tuning stage two 93 oct
CT stage two 93 oct

Waiting on a PERRIN map to test out also.

Anyways.
COBB - 282 WHP, 310WTQ - little soft down low but hits resonably hard but a little later in the rpm range.

Surgeline - 274 WHP, 314WTQ - very smooth across rev range - no real hit but a linear progression of power.

CT - 285 WHP, 310WTQ - Def surge down low, tapers after 5K noticibly, but a good kick.

Just my observations on my this car in those conditions, dont know how accurate it is but tried to complete pulls as identical as possible.

Any one else with similar roms post up.

Its great having the choice of three totally workable and different roms.

Cheers
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:22 AM   #2
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cool.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:26 AM   #3
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I like my Clark Turner stage 1 map, I'm sure his others are strong as well. He definitely tunes for a serious surge on the bottom end, which I like.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:54 AM   #4
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when we say surge down low, we are talking about a good spool and kick in the pants right? Not like boost spiking/falling off or compressor type of surge...?

The first one sounds great, the latter not so much.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:43 PM   #5
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post some dyno graphs of before the tune and after the tune.

Its the percentage gain and power under the curve people should be looking at. Not the peak #s.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesixnin View Post
when we say surge down low, we are talking about a good spool and kick in the pants right? Not like boost spiking/falling off or compressor type of surge...?

The first one sounds great, the latter not so much.
Its the spool fella, no issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALIBAN View Post
post some dyno graphs of before the tune and after the tune.

Its the percentage gain and power under the curve people should be looking at. Not the peak #s.
Done on AP not laptop, no graph, just copied the numbers
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:58 PM   #7
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i also have the CT stage 1 map and i love it. complete drivability with this map. i get power as soon as i step on the gas and builds up to full power smoothly and tapers back down close to redline. im about to upgrade to stage 2 and ill let you know how that one is.
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Old 10-03-2008, 06:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kastley85891 View Post
Its great having the choice of three totally workable and different roms.

Cheers
You should log boost, timing and AFR with romraider and plot the 3 out vs each other. I doubt you have a wideband though.

But I think you'd be pretty surprised at how similar the numbers are gonna be.

The peak tq shows that they are all running equal boost and hitting peak at the same rpm. I guess one of them could be running lower boost and a lot more timing, but most tuners usually crank up the boost first.

Can you look at the maps in AP? Arent they all pretty much the same?
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Old 10-03-2008, 06:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You should log boost, timing and AFR with romraider and plot the 3 out vs each other. I doubt you have a wideband though.

But I think you'd be pretty surprised at how similar the numbers are gonna be.

The peak tq shows that they are all running equal boost and hitting peak at the same rpm. I guess one of them could be running lower boost and a lot more timing, but most tuners usually crank up the boost first.

Can you look at the maps in AP? Arent they all pretty much the same?
Ron
When Time permits I am going to do just that - ref logging, no WB as yet but in the mix shortly.
I was surprised on the numbers but a definite difference in feel between the three.
I think when the WB goes in I shall tweak the OTS and see how it goes from there.

I cannot open maps other then the OTS as they are locked by the respective tuner, race tuner enables me to view only the COBB or 'unlocked' roms.

Cheers
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringe View Post
I like my Clark Turner stage 1 map, I'm sure his others are strong as well. He definitely tunes for a serious surge on the bottom end, which I like.
Do you need to log with a wideband to get tune a Clark Tuner map?

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Old 10-03-2008, 08:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Do you need to log with a wideband to get tune a Clark Tuner map?

No - see his post in vendor classifieds
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #12
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1) For an OTS map no...just like the OP of this thread.

2) For an internet protune with stock intake probably not

3) For an internet protune with a cold air intake, big maf, 70mm, etc and stock injectors probably not.

4) For an internet protune with 70mm + different injectors, a wideband is most likely a must.

Clark could probably put together a nice safe map for #4 but in reality he'd never know the AFR so i bet he wouldnt do it....
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
1) For an OTS map no...just like the OP of this thread.

2) For an internet protune with stock intake probably not

3) For an internet protune with a cold air intake, big maf, 70mm, etc and stock injectors probably not.

4) For an internet protune with 70mm + different injectors, a wideband is most likely a must.

Clark could probably put together a nice safe map for #4 but in reality he'd never know the AFR so i bet he wouldnt do it....
Thanks, I am going to tune my car myself I was just wondering when a wideband was need it.

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Old 10-03-2008, 11:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You should log boost, timing and AFR with romraider and plot the 3 out vs each other. I doubt you have a wideband though.
Are there definitions available for the 08 STI yet? I know we can read/write with the OpenPort 2.0 cable, but didn't know if logger/editor defs were available yet.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:36 PM   #15
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for juan, those were just my suspicions....not clarks words

for ben, im not sure....
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:46 AM   #16
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Pretty cool. I have used the ap dyno feature. The trouble is that you must dyno all maps with the same starting temps, on the same road. Otherwise the power will vary. What I instruct people to do, is to load the map, Idle for 5 minutes, Drive around the block shifting at the same rpm, Then on the same point on the road, run the dyno. this way, we will have air across the ic and intake temps will be close. Any incline or decline in the road will effect the readings.

The HP tends to read pretty close on the ap dyno but the Trq always seems low compared to an actual chassis dyno. But not that far off. The map you are running is a concervative pump gas map that typicaly makes 280 to 300whp and 300 to 330ft lbs of trq so your readings are not far off. The only thing I dont understand is most of the time the Cobb map makes 260 to 275whp and 270 to 280trq. You car seems to like the cobb map.

The biggest thing you wont see with the AP dyno is the gains at RPM points. I had a customer complain that my 08 WRX map was only making 5hp and the same trq. However, When he dyno tested the maps and emailed me the graph, I saw 60ftlbs gain at 3000 to 5000 rpm!!! and about 40whp gained under 5500. The stock turbo is small and it produced about the same peak hp on both maps.

I have maps for just about any setup. I always prefer to have a WB but stage1, 2, 3 and most stock location turbos, I dont need one. On larger setups its a must unless Its a very common setup that I tune alot. I have many data logs of typical IDCs with popular injectors along with logs of Airflow so I normaly can nail it with in 1 AFR point. All maps will be on the rich side in the 10s unless I have an WB AFR log, I can read and adjust.

Clark
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Old 10-04-2008, 11:19 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
Pretty cool. I have used the ap dyno feature. The trouble is that you must dyno all maps with the same starting temps, on the same road. Otherwise the power will vary. What I instruct people to do, is to load the map, Idle for 5 minutes, Drive around the block shifting at the same rpm, Then on the same point on the road, run the dyno. this way, we will have air across the ic and intake temps will be close. Any incline or decline in the road will effect the readings.

The HP tends to read pretty close on the ap dyno but the Trq always seems low compared to an actual chassis dyno. But not that far off. The map you are running is a concervative pump gas map that typicaly makes 280 to 300whp and 300 to 330ft lbs of trq so your readings are not far off. The only thing I dont understand is most of the time the Cobb map makes 260 to 275whp and 270 to 280trq. You car seems to like the cobb map.

The biggest thing you wont see with the AP dyno is the gains at RPM points. I had a customer complain that my 08 WRX map was only making 5hp and the same trq. However, When he dyno tested the maps and emailed me the graph, I saw 60ftlbs gain at 3000 to 5000 rpm!!! and about 40whp gained under 5500. The stock turbo is small and it produced about the same peak hp on both maps.

I have maps for just about any setup. I always prefer to have a WB but stage1, 2, 3 and most stock location turbos, I dont need one. On larger setups its a must unless Its a very common setup that I tune alot. I have many data logs of typical IDCs with popular injectors along with logs of Airflow so I normaly can nail it with in 1 AFR point. All maps will be on the rich side in the 10s unless I have an WB AFR log, I can read and adjust.

Clark
Clark
Thanks for chiming in,
As you know your map does rock on my STI in terms of spool and ass shunt, yes my car does like the COBB map also, along with the Surgeline unit, they are all similar power/TRQ on my vehicle with same temps,road conditions etc, although they all 'feel' so different, its great.
As soon as my WB02 is in I will start to log them all and get a bit more in to it, but its all interesting, well to me any ways

Looking over the ROM's it aint that different from my 06 so when time permits will mod the base map and see how it goes, will post any results etc, its getting cooler here now slightly so hopefully find a nice 95dC ambiant temp day!

Cheers
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Old 10-06-2008, 07:28 PM   #18
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Man I should have read this thread before posting this topic:
Cobb V2 AP Dynamometer

Anyone have any input on this? I've been playing with this feature recently too...
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:39 AM   #19
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FWIW the cobb map is a Bailey tune as well
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Old 10-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesixnin View Post
when we say surge down low, we are talking about a good spool and kick in the pants right? Not like boost spiking/falling off or compressor type of surge...?

The first one sounds great, the latter not so much.
Right on the first one.
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Old 10-11-2008, 11:17 AM   #21
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I have used the Dyno function on the AP a few times with my 08 Stage 2 sti. Everytime it has returned around 400hp and 450 tq....obviously a little off. Weight input is dead on as well.
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Old 10-11-2008, 11:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I have used the Dyno function on the AP a few times with my 08 Stage 2 sti. Everytime it has returned around 400hp and 450 tq....obviously a little off. Weight input is dead on as well.
I had the same thing happen to me when I went to stage 2. Stage 1 it was as expected, but stage 2 was reporting over 400 whp. I asked cobb and they had no clue.

edit: over 300 whp, like 380.

Last edited by Frank A; 10-11-2008 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:57 PM   #23
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Looking at the numbers and your impressions, I would rather have the Surgeline map.
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:18 PM   #24
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Kastley, you should download the new Cobb map and see how it does. They have a version 1.02 that may be better.
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