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Old 01-17-2010, 07:57 AM   #326
downpipe12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
hahaha I havn't seen that film in wiiicked long.
....mad funny.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
Haha...one of the best...a true classic.


Good luck with your wastegate!
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:33 PM   #327
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For those of you who care to know, I sent an email to Performance Techniques that ForesterWTi mentioned.

Their 19T upgrade uses a TE04H turbine wheel and if I understand the email response correctly their 19T compressor wheels are custom made because the availability of parts from Mitsubishi sucks.

TD04L has a 1.86" inducer and 1.62" exducer. TE04H has a 2.01" inducer and 1.88" exducer. I'm not an expert on turbine wheels, but I'm pretty sure the TE04H-19T from Performance Techniques is going to be great for top end, but spool characteristics aren't what a lot of us are looking for. That's not to say it isn't a decent, affordable upgrade option. That turbine/compressor pairing should make 300hp+. For the $399+22.99shipping it sells for on their ebay auctions its pretty hard to beat. A small 16g is going to cost more, spool a little slower, and not make much more power.

After finding this information and doing a bit more research I'm back up in the air on a turbo upgrade. I no longer think the 19T from Blouch is ideal. There aren't enough results to prove one way or another, but I'm leaning toward not. The TD04L wheel is undersized for spinning a 19T compressor. Clipping the wheel will help top end flow, but its not helping spool any.

I did a lot of staring at compressor maps this morning. Looking at flow capacities for the 2.0L engine, the 19T is almost a waste. It allows you to run a little more boost at low rpm without surge, that's all I could really find. According to its compressor map it will flow a max of 550cfm at 18psi, but that's not a part of the map you can reach with a 2.0L motor. I borrowed flow and VE info from another thread (EJ205 with ported and polished everything) and the resulting flow numbers are rather enlightening.


Pressure ratios are based on the 14.5psi atm around me. 2.1pr is 16psi, 2.2 is 17.4psi, 2.3 is 18.8psi, and 2.4 is 20psi.

3000RPM
13T @ 2.1pr = 200cfm
16T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm
18T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm
19T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm

4000rpm
13T @ 2.1pr = 270cfm
16T @ 2.3pr = 290cfm
18T @ 2.4pr = 300cfm
19T @ 2.4pr = 290cfm

5000rpm
13T @ 2.1pr = 350cfm
16T @ 2.3pr = 370cfm
18T @ 2.4pr = 390cfm
19T @ 2.4pr = 390cfm

7000rpm
13T @ 1.8pr = 360cfm
16T @ 2.0pr = 410cfm
18T @ 2.2pr = 430cfm
19T @ 2.2pr = 430cfm


Aside from having to trim boost levels down low to prevent surge, the 16T is flowing 20cfm less than the 18T or 19T across the midrange, but its still pushing 20cfm more than the stock 13T. IMO, the 16T wheel might be small enough to pair with the stock TD04L turbine and maintain stock-like spool characteristics while still netting 10-15% more power than your average stage 2 setup. Not too horrible when you consider Blouch should/could also do that for the same $325 as the 19T upgrade...and Performance Techniques said they'd do it for $325 too.

I'm not sure how to approach the 18T upgrade. It is going to net similar power gains to a 19T, but its still a larger compressor wheel that really needs a larger turbine wheel to spin it. The only reasonable options are the TD04H, TD04HL, and TE04H. I talked about the TE04H earlier. The TD04HL has been discussed in other threads and is still smaller than a VF39 turbine. Spool on a TD04HL-18T or 19T should still be better than a VF39. The TD04H is a little smaller than the HL, but I've not found any info about a Subaru turbo using that turbine wheel. Its undiscovered territory, assuming its something you can fit into a Subaru specific turbine housing.







And since this thread has turned into more of a discussion of 19T upgrades, and perhaps anything for a 2.0L that is quick to spool, I'm going to rename the thread if there are no objections.
"TD04-19T discussion...and other stock upgrade options"

Last edited by Scooby921; 01-18-2010 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:52 PM   #328
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sooo do the performance tech or a vf 39
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:12 PM   #329
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I think the 19T wheel is most definitely NOT ideal for the small TD04L hotside. However, the area between "not ideal" and "not functional" is very gray.

I too have poured over the compressor maps for these upgrades, and noticed something. It takes less compressor wheel RPM to move the same/more air with the upgrade than with the stock 13T wheel. This makes me think if you massively ported the hotside, blocked off the IWG and setup a good EWG, that you might get away with similar back pressure (heaver wheel-more force to spin it), but much greater overall power. I think IWG is NOT a good idea for this particular turbo, but that's just my opinion.

Clipping also is most assuredly not how you want to do things. You loose spool, and it reduces the surface area of the turbine blades. Thereby taking more pressure on the remaining surface area to achieve the same net torque on the turbine wheel.

I think, in my mind, the 19T would be a good upgrade for EJ205's if they port the hotside and go EWG. For the 2.5L they really need to be looking at a VF39 sized hotside or bigger. Take a look at some of the graphs on in PPB...do you really need more than 300wtq at 3000 RPM? lol. Hopefully on an autocross track you'd be able to keep the revs above that anyway.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:29 AM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
For those of you who care to know, I sent an email to Performance Techniques that ForesterWTi mentioned.

Their 19T upgrade uses a TE04H turbine wheel and if I understand the email response correctly their 19T compressor wheels are custom made because the availability of parts from Mitsubishi sucks.

TD04L has a 1.86" inducer and 1.62" exducer. TE04H has a 2.01" inducer and 1.88" exducer. I'm not an expert on turbine wheels, but I'm pretty sure the TE04H-19T from Performance Techniques is going to be great for top end, but spool characteristics aren't what a lot of us are looking for. That's not to say it isn't a decent, affordable upgrade option. That turbine/compressor pairing should make 300hp+. For the $399+22.99shipping it sells for on their ebay auctions its pretty hard to beat. A small 16g is going to cost more, spool a little slower, and not make much more power.

After finding this information and doing a bit more research I'm back up in the air on a turbo upgrade. I no longer think the 19T from Blouch is ideal. There aren't enough results to prove one way or another, but I'm leaning toward not. The TD04L wheel is undersized for spinning a 19T compressor. Clipping the wheel will help top end flow, but its not helping spool any.

I did a lot of staring at compressor maps this morning. Looking at flow capacities for the 2.0L engine, the 19T is almost a waste. It allows you to run a little more boost at low rpm without surge, that's all I could really find. According to its compressor map it will flow a max of 550cfm at 18psi, but that's not a part of the map you can reach with a 2.0L motor. I borrowed flow and VE info from another thread (EJ205 with ported and polished everything) and the resulting flow numbers are rather enlightening.


Pressure ratios are based on the 14.5psi atm around me. 2.1pr is 16psi, 2.2 is 17.4psi, 2.3 is 18.8psi, and 2.4 is 20psi.

3000RPM
13T @ 2.1pr = 200cfm
16T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm
18T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm
19T @ 2.2pr = 210cfm

4000rpm
13T @ 2.1pr = 270cfm
16T @ 2.3pr = 290cfm
18T @ 2.4pr = 300cfm
19T @ 2.4pr = 290cfm

5000rpm
13T @ 2.1pr = 350cfm
16T @ 2.3pr = 370cfm
18T @ 2.4pr = 390cfm
19T @ 2.4pr = 390cfm

7000rpm
13T @ 1.8pr = 360cfm
16T @ 2.0pr = 410cfm
18T @ 2.2pr = 430cfm
19T @ 2.2pr = 430cfm


Aside from having to trim boost levels down low to prevent surge, the 16T is flowing 20cfm less than the 18T or 19T across the midrange, but its still pushing 20cfm more than the stock 13T. IMO, the 16T wheel might be small enough to pair with the stock TD04L turbine and maintain stock-like spool characteristics while still netting 10-15% more power than your average stage 2 setup. Not too horrible when you consider Blouch should/could also do that for the same $325 as the 19T upgrade...and Performance Techniques said they'd do it for $325 too.

I'm not sure how to approach the 18T upgrade. It is going to net similar power gains to a 19T, but its still a larger compressor wheel that really needs a larger turbine wheel to spin it. The only reasonable options are the TD04H, TD04HL, and TE04H. I talked about the TE04H earlier. The TD04HL has been discussed in other threads and is still smaller than a VF39 turbine. Spool on a TD04HL-18T or 19T should still be better than a VF39. The TD04H is a little smaller than the HL, but I've not found any info about a Subaru turbo using that turbine wheel. Its undiscovered territory, assuming its something you can fit into a Subaru specific turbine housing.







And since this thread has turned into more of a discussion of 19T upgrades, and perhaps anything for a 2.0L that is quick to spool, I'm going to rename the thread if there are no objections.
"TD04-19T discussion...and other stock upgrade options"

Cheers! Thanx for keeping an open mind.
I'm dyno'n soon
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:40 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
I think the 19T wheel is most definitely NOT ideal for the small TD04L hotside. However, the area between "not ideal" and "not functional" is very gray.

I too have poured over the compressor maps for these upgrades, and noticed something. It takes less compressor wheel RPM to move the same/more air with the upgrade than with the stock 13T wheel. This makes me think if you massively ported the hotside, blocked off the IWG and setup a good EWG, that you might get away with similar back pressure (heaver wheel-more force to spin it), but much greater overall power. I think IWG is NOT a good idea for this particular turbo, but that's just my opinion.

Clipping also is most assuredly not how you want to do things. You loose spool, and it reduces the surface area of the turbine blades. Thereby taking more pressure on the remaining surface area to achieve the same net torque on the turbine wheel.

I think, in my mind, the 19T would be a good upgrade for EJ205's if they port the hotside and go EWG. For the 2.5L they really need to be looking at a VF39 sized hotside or bigger. Take a look at some of the graphs on in PPB...do you really need more than 300wtq at 3000 RPM? lol. Hopefully on an autocross track you'd be able to keep the revs above that anyway.
I totally agree! I would love to do an EWG, having that IWG blocked off and dumping before the turbo as apposed to getting that dreaded back pressure --- or even trying to go bellmouth you then have that surge haha. It is always something... but IMO the PerfomanceT-TD04 with an 38 EWG getting 300tq is just so wiiicked

I will be trying however the other route --- trying for over 260whp with an (Forge adjustable) IWG. Now i know, i know, haha... But I just think it's doable with my DP that is VTA... and i think it's so rad to be able to make passes on the highway not shifting down, and popping that hood at the gas station only to show a stock looking turbo set up... clean and sleeper? Oh yeah it's called a daily

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
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Old 01-19-2010, 08:27 AM   #332
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So I was surfing a local forum last night and discovered we have a local who builds turbos for a living. After exchanging PM's with him I found out he works in the R&D lab at Honeywell. I decided to run some things by him and get myself a little more educated.

So far I've been told that most of my ideas are noble, but more expensive than they are worth. He said a big 16g would provide all the power I need and still not hurt the response/spool enough to notice. When I asked about the wheel weights and rotational inertia I was told it really didn't matter. They spin at 120,000+ rpm and rotational inertia isn't that big of a deal at a 60mm diameter. Apparently the larger turbos allow for more aerodynamic efficiency and what they may lose due to weight they make up for with the flow through the turbine and compressor.


In my last PM to him I asked the following...
Quote:
I want 280hp out of a 2.0L and I want the quickest response I can get. What do you recommend?
I'll let you all know when I get a response.



I'm really looking forward to ForesterWTi's results. I think it will prove one way or the other. His TE04H-19T should be very similar to a 16g setup. I just want to see how quick the turbo spools up.
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:15 PM   #333
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i considered this turbo.. and considered and considered.

i wanted decent street dd drivability..

first it was this turbo.. then it was a small 16g.. then i held my nose and bought a evoIII 16g. had a tuner kept tellin me to go hta68 but i still figure that would have put my torque/spool/whatever higher in the rpm band than i wanted. self tuned on 2.0 with e85 it hits 20psi around 3600 and holds it more or less to 7k (i currently have it taper a bit down to around 18psi)

in the end i got about what i was looking for plus a bit more.. for a while i considered sending in my stock td04 and and having it modified so i could play with this turbo too.. i may still do that but mostly likely not.

at worst if you wanna romp on it around town all you have to do is keep it in a little higher rev range. still pulls like a raped ape at part throttle if i roll it on quick..

would be interesting to play with a small 16g to see how i liked it but i will be moving on to a 2.5 hybrid probably and trying to keep the same around town punchyness of my current setup, just with more torque/hp.

i guess for the money this might be a good buy. but spend a bit more and get another 50+ or more hp and decent torque down low (enough)..

2003 wrx
2.0 stock
cobb tbe
pde up
id 1000 injectors
grimmspeed ebcs
cobb ap v2
turboxs/hyperflow topmount
stock airbox/filter
EvoIII 16g
e85

oh and i got my turbo from blouch
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:58 AM   #334
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And more info...

Local guy got back to me. Apparently he did a little more looking into the 19T and called a couple other turbo gurus. He now says the 19T can/will work with the stock turbine wheel, but you can't go any bigger. Its going to have better response and low end than an evo3 16g, but its not going to have the same top end. Most of this we already knew...he just changed his opinion on the option after doing a bit more research on his own. Makes me happy to have a professional turbo designer/maker verify that this upgrade can work the way a lot of us want it to.

I did some looking at evo3 16g dyno plots today. The average is peak boost by 4000rpm. That's way too late for my liking. I also noticed that my stock 13T and my current tune is making more power than the evo3 up to 3500rpm where the stock turbo peaks out and the 16g is still building boost. I'm up 15-25whp over the evo3 at 3000rpm.


Looks like I'm back on track for the 19T. Local guy said he can do it for me in 10 days for $400. Its a tad bit more than Blouch, but its supporting a local and there is no shipping involved. And if I decide the 19T is lacking in top end I can take it back and have him do some more work and put in a larger turbine wheel.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:38 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tolnep View Post
i considered this turbo.. and considered and considered.

i wanted decent street dd drivability..

first it was this turbo.. then it was a small 16g.. then i held my nose and bought a evoIII 16g. had a tuner kept tellin me to go hta68 but i still figure that would have put my torque/spool/whatever higher in the rpm band than i wanted. self tuned on 2.0 with e85 it hits 20psi around 3600 and holds it more or less to 7k (i currently have it taper a bit down to around 18psi)

in the end i got about what i was looking for plus a bit more.. for a while i considered sending in my stock td04 and and having it modified so i could play with this turbo too.. i may still do that but mostly likely not.

at worst if you wanna romp on it around town all you have to do is keep it in a little higher rev range. still pulls like a raped ape at part throttle if i roll it on quick..

would be interesting to play with a small 16g to see how i liked it but i will be moving on to a 2.5 hybrid probably and trying to keep the same around town punchyness of my current setup, just with more torque/hp.

i guess for the money this might be a good buy. but spend a bit more and get another 50+ or more hp and decent torque down low (enough)..

2003 wrx
2.0 stock
cobb tbe
pde up
id 1000 injectors
grimmspeed ebcs
cobb ap v2
turboxs/hyperflow topmount
stock airbox/filter
EvoIII 16g
e85

oh and i got my turbo from blouch
just real quick, what did you tune with, and are you just running e85 --- or did you upgrade your fuel lines, I would like to run that all day every day, just wondering.

we have a shell station in my town of Steamboat, BUT i have to dyno in Denver that's a good amount of driving (3-4 hours depending on how much snow). So i'm just a little uncertain i will be able to get e85 where ever i go...

corn gas haha wow, hello 2010, who woulda thought, but that octane level is too wicked to pass up

Cheers!
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:39 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
And if I decide the 19T is lacking in top end I can take it back and have him do some more work and put in a larger turbine wheel.
I don't think I would bother. From my own discussions with Blouch, they didn't recommend the upgrade to the turbine. The response was, "You migth as well get a TD05-16G. From my own research, the 19T and 16G compressor maps are very similar. So to accomplish a turbine upgrade, you might consider selling the 19T and going with the 16G. I also feel that dyno data supports this thought process.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:14 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
just real quick, what did you tune with, and are you just running e85 --- or did you upgrade your fuel lines, I would like to run that all day every day, just wondering.

we have a shell station in my town of Steamboat, BUT i have to dyno in Denver that's a good amount of driving (3-4 hours depending on how much snow). So i'm just a little uncertain i will be able to get e85 where ever i go...

corn gas haha wow, hello 2010, who woulda thought, but that octane level is too wicked to pass up

Cheers!
~Wolf
WTi
tuned with access tuner race. if you have an apv2, you request the download. i also have a LC1 wideband, absolutely required. i also have all the rom raider stuff, tactrix 2.0 cable etc and use it sometimes for logging. but i tune with ATR because of its realtime abilities.

when i started modding my car this summer (started with suspension) i had decided to go with a local tuner with a good reputation. i was also interested in running e85 and pump. i wanted a sort of flex fuel vehicle i guess. i modded one thing at a time myself. as each step went ok i went to another. the last step was ID1000 injectors and then walbro pump. i'd been playing with ATR for a while, so i went ahead and scaled up my injectors after adding some e85 (bout 50:50 to gas). this went so well i ran it empty and filled up.

i wanted a pro tune, but the guy i wanted a pro tune from would not give me an unlocked map. as a consequence, i started tuning myself. it turned out better than i would have ever expected, though i think a pro tune would still be better..

i am fairly careful, have a 2nd car (if i blow up the WRX, i can afford to have it down for repairs while i drive my other car) and i tune computers/databases for a living. and i've built several motors and done work on several project cars. if you are willing to take the time, and are careful you can do this yourself, though probably not as good as someone who does it for a living..

and e85 is magic juice.. there is no other way to describe it. my car loves it. you can run more boost, a bit more timing and if you do it right you get no knock.. i just bought two 15 gallon HDPE drums to keep a supply in. there's one place 10 miles away from me that sells it but runs out sometimes, the next closest is around 20 miles. fuel 15 gallon drum weighs around 100 lbs. i had considered 55, then 30 gallon drums before i ended up with 15 gallon drums due to weight. bought a couple for 18 bucks a piece.

ah steamboat. i love to ski. steamboat is nice if you say out of the congestion bottom.. least thats how i remember it..
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:08 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
I don't think I would bother. From my own discussions with Blouch, they didn't recommend the upgrade to the turbine. The response was, "You migth as well get a TD05-16G. From my own research, the 19T and 16G compressor maps are very similar. So to accomplish a turbine upgrade, you might consider selling the 19T and going with the 16G. I also feel that dyno data supports this thought process.
I agree. The 19T and 16G are so similar in output on a 2.0L the big choice is the hot side. Do you want response or do you want top end power?

From the horse's mouth...
Quote:
I was thinking about what you were saying about the TD04H and made a couple of phone calls. Mikael Kenson is a turbocharging consultant in the west coast and has been for over 25 years. After going over some technical discussion about the conversion possibilities you were looking for, I come to find that the way that the 19T responds in the lower rpm range is still very possible in a TD04. It's the largest a TD04 could see, but it could work with some decent gains to it. Especially if your plans are more of a street version or an autoX purpose. The turbine wheel would be slightly clipped, but not so much as I wouldn't like it. This would give you a bit more of what you were originally asking...

...The Evo 3 16G will not reach 2.0PR by 3000rpms, but will have greater upper band power than the 19T. If you're concerned about reaching 14psi by 3000rpms, stick with the 19T upgrade. If midrange to higher powerband is what you're looking for, go with the EV03 or the Big 16G.
A 19T on the stock turbine is going to respond sooner and make more power up to 3500~4000rpm. I expect power to be very similar from 4000 to 5000 or 5500rpm at 20psi. Above that I expect the TD04 will start to fall off and taper to 16psi at 7000. With the bigger turbine the 16G seems to hold 18psi at 7000rpm. If the 19T will hold 16psi at redline then I'm up 4psi and ~60cfm over my current 13T tune. The 16G at 18psi is going to be another 60cfm over the 19T. That's a lot of power left on the table by the smaller turbine wheel, but its the opposite story in the low rpm's. The 19T should be 40-50cfm over the 16G at 3000rpm and as much as 80cfm over the 16G at 3500rpm.


In two or three weeks I should have some data to either support or negate what I've claimed


And dammit ForesterWTi, get that thing tuned. I want to see the response and top end compared to a 16G!
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:42 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
I don't think I would bother. From my own discussions with Blouch, they didn't recommend the upgrade to the turbine. The response was, "You migth as well get a TD05-16G. From my own research, the 19T and 16G compressor maps are very similar. So to accomplish a turbine upgrade, you might consider selling the 19T and going with the 16G. I also feel that dyno data supports this thought process.
I hear that response too, it's a different goal. For a couple hundred more you can get a 16g and make more power, no doubt about that. Lag is only a few seconds.

By the same logic a VF39 will flow the same as a small 16g maybe respond a bit slower, but for half the cost in good used condition. I don't think the better efficiencies of the 16g are realized on a 2.0 without E85 or race gas.

The problem I have with bigger turbos is not the lag time, but the speed at which you are going when the power kicks in. 3rd gear 4000rpm is when it gets fun and that's quite a bit of speed on public roads.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:44 PM   #340
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The problem I have with bigger turbos is not the lag time, but the speed at which you are going when the power kicks in. 3rd gear 4000rpm is when it gets fun and that's quite a bit of speed on public roads.
And that is why we are in this thread- I'm going with the 19t, Hail spool!

Also I would like to know who else is being recommended for this 19t build other then Blouch not that I have anything against them just wondering what my options are, possibly with a little feedback. Thanks for all the great info!

Last edited by Ostrowrx; 01-20-2010 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:05 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
A 19T on the stock turbine is going to respond sooner and make more power up to 3500~4000rpm. I expect power to be very similar from 4000 to 5000 or 5500rpm at 20psi. Above that I expect the TD04 will start to fall off and taper to 16psi at 7000. With the bigger turbine the 16G seems to hold 18psi at 7000rpm. If the 19T will hold 16psi at redline then I'm up 4psi and ~60cfm over my current 13T tune. The 16G at 18psi is going to be another 60cfm over the 19T. That's a lot of power left on the table by the smaller turbine wheel, but its the opposite story in the low rpm's. The 19T should be 40-50cfm over the 16G at 3000rpm and as much as 80cfm over the 16G at 3500rpm.
Compressor Maps with the 2.0L Demand Curves:
by mickeyd2005 http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic...pressor%20maps








The compressor maps are very similar in flow. The question, is what hotside do you push either of the compressors with? Personally, I see no need to slide the powerband any further to the right for a street driven 2.0L motor. I'll stick with the TD04L and keep as much of my quick spool as I can.

Also, look at how fat that 19T map is! I don't see how you could get that thing to surge on the low end.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:09 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ostrowrx View Post
And that is why we are in this thread- I'm going with the 19t, Hail spool!

Also I would like to know who else is being recommended for this 19t build other then Blouch not that I have anything against them just wondering what my options are, possibly with a little feedback. Thanks for all the great info!
There aren't a lot of results yet for anyone to be making recommendations. All the results posted thus far have been with the Blouch upgraded versions. Mine is being done by a local turbo builder, but he's charging $400 compared to Blouch's $325. I had emailed Performance Techniques about some other options and a 16T wheel upgrade would have been $325. I don't see why the 19T upgrade would be any different. If you want their TE04H-19T its ~$425 if you win it on one of their ebay auctions. $600 if you BIN.

I have a feeling they will all be very similar in final performance. If you are out west I'd call Performance Techniques as you'll spend the least amount shipping the turbo back and forth. If you're out east I'd call Blouch for the same reason. If for some reason the 19T I get from the local builder is leaps and bounds better than the other options the perhaps people will want to pony up the $400 to have him build one.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:39 PM   #343
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I agree. According to that compressor map, the EJ205 will never be able to drive the 19T into surge.

I have one question though. What happens if you DONT clip the turbine wheel? I see a lot of people saying you need to clip it slightly, but unless I am misunderstanding something.....why would you?

The turbine wheel is where you generate the torque to spin the cold side up and move all that air. Ok. So lets throw two scenarios of clipping and not clipping.

Not Clipped - More surface area of the turbine blades to absorb energy from the exhaust gasses. Requires less back pressure to achieve the same torque output.

Clipped - Less surface area of the turbine blades relative to the exhaust stream, requiring more pressure on the remaining surface area (back pressure) to achieve the same torque.

So it seems as though not clipping it would not only spool the turbo quicker, but yield better top end results as long as your wastegate was able to handle enough of the excess gasses. It seems to me that clipping is a solution dedicated to those with Unmodified Internal wastegate's that cannot handle the extra flow, and thus another route must be taken to increase exhaust flow through the hotside of the turbo. (clipping).

To see the real potential of this turbo, I really think an EWG or modified IWG are need, along with NOT clipping the turbine wheel.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:43 PM   #344
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Another potential vendor of this turbo is Gerry at G-pop shop. http://www.gpopshop.com/

I emailed him last fall about the 19T upgrade and he quoted me a price of 525$ for a standard rebuild AND the 19T upgrade. This was a slight discount as the rebuild and compressor upgrade share some of the labor. Just the 19T upgrade alone runs about 235$ IIRC.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:49 PM   #345
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The advantage to clipping is the same as working with a ported/modified wastegate or EWG. It allows for a higher volume and smoother flow of exhaust gases. Clipping the wheel will affect response characteristics in the low RPM range. Not clipping is going to choke some of the flow at higher RPMs because the exhaust gases can't get into and out of the turbine wheel fast enough. This is why the larger TD05 on the 16g is more efficient at higher RPMs. This is why I think PT's TE04H turbine wheel upgrade will allow the 19T to match the 16G at those higher RPMs.
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:22 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
The advantage to clipping is the same as working with a ported/modified wastegate or EWG. It allows for a higher volume and smoother flow of exhaust gases. Clipping the wheel will affect response characteristics in the low RPM range. Not clipping is going to choke some of the flow at higher RPMs because the exhaust gases can't get into and out of the turbine wheel fast enough. This is why the larger TD05 on the 16g is more efficient at higher RPMs. This is why I think PT's TE04H turbine wheel upgrade will allow the 19T to match the 16G at those higher RPMs.
Agreed. But when one DOES have an EWG or properly ported and adjusted IWG, there should be no need for clipping.

Can't wait for more results! I'm on the fence still....wavering between a small 16G and this. I'm a 4EAT so lag is worse for me.
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:45 PM   #347
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Ebay has Mitsu 19t compresser wheels for $65 and TD04 turbine wheels for $155 + $20 shipping. I know someone local with tools and knowledge to do this mod for free.

Anyone know if the TD04H or TD04HL would be a better?

TD04H
Inducer: 52 mm / 2.05 inch
- Exducer: 44.2 mm / 1.74 inch
- Tip: 7.7 mm / 0.30 inch (matches stock)
- Turbine Shaft OD: 7.5mm / 0.29 inch (matches stock)

TD04HL
Inducer: 52 mm / 2.05 inch
- Exducer: 45.6 mm / 1.79 inch
- Tip: 8.9 mm / 0.35 inch
- Turbine Shaft OD: 7.5mm / 0.29 inch (matches stock)
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:03 PM   #348
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I think someone said either earlier in this thread or in the thread I linked further up that the TD04HL setup is getting pretty close to a 16g setup with similar characteristics. At a certain point the cost of the custom > cost of off the shelf.
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:54 PM   #349
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I think someone said either earlier in this thread or in the thread I linked further up that the TD04HL setup is getting pretty close to a 16g setup with similar characteristics. At a certain point the cost of the custom > cost of off the shelf.
Except my labor is free and the parts are the same cost.

I just wanted to find the best combination of parts for the stock housing and 2.0L requirements. I'm almost thinking a TD04HL 16T or 18T might be the better way to go, but it's really hard to compare and I still haven't figured out this flow capacity and compressor map reading.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:03 PM   #350
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Except my labor is free and the parts are the same cost.

I just wanted to find the best combination of parts for the stock housing and 2.0L requirements. I'm almost thinking a TD04HL 16T or 18T might be the better way to go, but it's really hard to compare and I still haven't figured out this flow capacity and compressor map reading.

Let me know what you come up with, your free labor gives you a lot more flexibility.
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