Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday August 27, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2010, 11:01 PM   #351
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
Except my labor is free and the parts are the same cost.

I just wanted to find the best combination of parts for the stock housing and 2.0L requirements. I'm almost thinking a TD04HL 16T or 18T might be the better way to go, but it's really hard to compare and I still haven't figured out this flow capacity and compressor map reading.
I covered part of the 16T/18T/19T comparison earlier.

16T would be a great upgrade with the stock TD04L turbine if you want 20whp more than stock with nearly identical response characteristics. An 18T is probably the best compressor match for the flow demand of the 2.0L motor and its going to produce similar power to a 19T. With very similar performance on the same turbine wheel I'd go for the larger one simply because it gives you a little more up top should you choose to use it.

As far as turbine wheels go...
TD04<TD04L<TD04H<TD04HL<TE04H<TD05H

Any of the TD04 wheels are going to have less weight than a TD05. They should all provide a little quicker response. As you get larger in size you do reduce response time, but you are providing better flow characteristics and allowing for more power in the high rpm ranges. Given the flow demand I expect a TD04HL or TE04H with a 19T wheel is going to provide nearly identical results to a TD05H-16G. The TD04H wheel should give you more of the response characteristics of the stock setup while providing better flow at higher rpm without having to clip the wheel.

I have no data to back it up. Its all speculation based on sizes, compressor maps, some info I've looked up over the last couple days, and other peoples' dyno tune results. Take it for what it is.


Just make sure that this person who can machine and install the new wheels for you also has the ability to spin the rotating assembly to whatever 200,000rpm necessary to balance it properly.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 02:30 AM   #352
ForesterWTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173892
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Steamboat Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 OB EZ30R LLBean
champagne gold

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I agree. The 19T and 16G are so similar in output on a 2.0L the big choice is the hot side. Do you want response or do you want top end power?

From the horse's mouth...


A 19T on the stock turbine is going to respond sooner and make more power up to 3500~4000rpm. I expect power to be very similar from 4000 to 5000 or 5500rpm at 20psi. Above that I expect the TD04 will start to fall off and taper to 16psi at 7000. With the bigger turbine the 16G seems to hold 18psi at 7000rpm. If the 19T will hold 16psi at redline then I'm up 4psi and ~60cfm over my current 13T tune. The 16G at 18psi is going to be another 60cfm over the 19T. That's a lot of power left on the table by the smaller turbine wheel, but its the opposite story in the low rpm's. The 19T should be 40-50cfm over the 16G at 3000rpm and as much as 80cfm over the 16G at 3500rpm.


In two or three weeks I should have some data to either support or negate what I've claimed


And dammit ForesterWTi, get that thing tuned. I want to see the response and top end compared to a 16G!
haha i'm trying scooby! I realized that it's not worth pro dyno tuning with stock manny and up pipe... especially now that my 19T is complimented with the TE04-H... so i'm currently trying to get PnP oem headers and gutted u ppipe before the 2nd week in feb. --- when i plan on getting dynoed

SO don't hold your breath until then haha, but save the date, I think my GF8 will be pulling wiiicked nicely
Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
ForesterWTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 02:38 AM   #353
SomeoneWhoIsntMe
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 160814
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: h8mvmt.com
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
PSM

Default

I'm in the process of building a 2.35 stroker with EJ205 heads, and maybe STi cams.

I'm almost tempted to get the TE04H-19T just for stupid response and torque, but I'm afraid it'd choke really bad on the top end.

The only TD04/TE04 exhaust housing for subarus is 6cm^2, right? With enough porting, can I open that up to 7cm, or is the exhaust housing a lost cause?
SomeoneWhoIsntMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 02:49 AM   #354
ForesterWTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173892
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Steamboat Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 OB EZ30R LLBean
champagne gold

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
There aren't a lot of results yet for anyone to be making recommendations. All the results posted thus far have been with the Blouch upgraded versions. Mine is being done by a local turbo builder, but he's charging $400 compared to Blouch's $325. I had emailed Performance Techniques about some other options and a 16T wheel upgrade would have been $325. I don't see why the 19T upgrade would be any different. If you want their TE04H-19T its ~$425 if you win it on one of their ebay auctions. $600 if you BIN.

I have a feeling they will all be very similar in final performance. If you are out west I'd call Performance Techniques as you'll spend the least amount shipping the turbo back and forth. If you're out east I'd call Blouch for the same reason. If for some reason the 19T I get from the local builder is leaps and bounds better than the other options the perhaps people will want to pony up the $400 to have him build one.

Yes but with PT it's $425 for an entire turbo! The shipping is cheap to any of the states in the USA, i.e. you only have to ship it one way --- direct to you.

Furthermore, for that price PT starts with a TD04 and fully rebuilds it and installs a brand new bearing --- Blouch will rebuild and they will put in a new bearing BUT for ot more than just the $325 for the 19t wheel to be put in...

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
ForesterWTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 08:35 AM   #355
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
haha i'm trying scooby! I realized that it's not worth pro dyno tuning with stock manny and up pipe... especially now that my 19T is complimented with the TE04-H... so i'm currently trying to get PnP oem headers and gutted u ppipe before the 2nd week in feb. --- when i plan on getting dynoed

SO don't hold your breath until then haha, but save the date, I think my GF8 will be pulling wiiicked nicely
Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
So you're saying I might be running my 19T and have results before you

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe View Post
I'm in the process of building a 2.35 stroker with EJ205 heads, and maybe STi cams.

I'm almost tempted to get the TE04H-19T just for stupid response and torque, but I'm afraid it'd choke really bad on the top end.

The only TD04/TE04 exhaust housing for subarus is 6cm^2, right? With enough porting, can I open that up to 7cm, or is the exhaust housing a lost cause?
I think the TE04H-19T from PT would be good for it. Its a much larger exhaust wheel. The exducer on the TE04H is larger than the inducer on a TD04L. The inducer on the TE04H is only 4mm smaller than a TD05H. The TE04H should have no issues in high RPMs. Just wait a couple weeks for ForesterWTi to get his tune and see if you like his results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
Yes but with PT it's $425 for an entire turbo! The shipping is cheap to any of the states in the USA, i.e. you only have to ship it one way --- direct to you.

Furthermore, for that price PT starts with a TD04 and fully rebuilds it and installs a brand new bearing --- Blouch will rebuild and they will put in a new bearing BUT for ot more than just the $325 for the 19t wheel to be put in...

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
Assuming you want the larger turbine wheel the PT turbo makes sense. If you just want a 19T on the stock turbine then they are going to be similar cost to Blouch. Its not necessarily the best value for the money, but not everyone wants the larger turbine.
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 01:04 PM   #356
AllAWD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17079
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Alexandria, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
Assuming you want the larger turbine wheel the PT turbo makes sense. If you just want a 19T on the stock turbine then they are going to be similar cost to Blouch. Its not necessarily the best value for the money, but not everyone wants the larger turbine.
Based on all I've read, it really makes a lot of sense to get the larger turbine wheel with the 19T. All the compressor maps are based on the TD04H wheel. Does anyone know how the smaller TD04L would effect the map? I would think you would loose some of that big broad efficiency range.
AllAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 08:12 AM   #357
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

^^ I've thought about that several times and I'm really not sure. I don't think it matters. The compressor in its housing is going to have a fixed efficiency based on its design and function. At a given rpm and pressure ratio its going to have a calculated efficiency regardless of how quickly or efficiently your turbine can get it to that rpm and pressure ratio. I have a feeling the compressor maps are created by mounting the compressor side of the assembly on a machine that can control the rpm's better and allow them to have more accurate measurements of flow and efficiency.

I suppose I'll go ask my local guy and see if he knows.
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 08:22 AM   #358
fastwrx25
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 126441
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: TPE
Vehicle:
03 bugeye

Default

I would go for the bigger turbine. The stocker is just way too small +restrictive and thats why blouch clips it.
fastwrx25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 09:20 AM   #359
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastwrx25 View Post
I would go for the bigger turbine. The stocker is just way too small +restrictive and thats why blouch clips it.
We will see how restrictive it is pretty soon. I dropped my turbo off for modification yesterday. Should be done in 10 days. I got my injectors back yesterday, all clean and purty. All I need now is a new clutch.

Anticipation is getting the better of me
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 09:38 AM   #360
jason miller
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 158313
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: W Laf, In
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
PSM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I did some looking at evo3 16g dyno plots today. The average is peak boost by 4000rpm.
I haven't kept up with this thread, but I wanted to point out one thing. Anyone hitting full boost at 4000 rpm with an ej205 and a td05h/7cm evo3 16g either has a bad tune, or a bad parts list. Sometimes the way dynos load a car will make it look like it's spooling later than it truly is. I had a Blouch evo3 16g on my car for 9 months, and saw full boost by 3700ish rpm in 3rd gear. Any "G" series compressor wheel will do the same or similar with a td05h/7cm exhaust setup.

Also, my spool results were on a Jorge tune. Don't get me wrong, Jorge is a great tuner, but he's also a safe tuner and doesn't run a lot of timing on normal daily driving maps. More aggressive timing could've spooled it a bit faster. That's part of why e85 spools quicker- you can run more timing. Manual boost controllers improve spool too; I'm just running a 3 port BCS.

Food for thought: JSarv is running an 18g with a td05h/8cm hotside, and gets twenty-some psi by 3400 rpm in 3rd gear with a manual boost controller and e85. Also, testes1010 used to have a td05h/7cm 20g that hit 24 psi by 3750 on both his 93 and 93/meth maps. The highlighted numbers are for emphasis on things that people commonly believe produce horrrrrible spool, btw.
jason miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 11:25 AM   #361
sen7inel
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 192602
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gaithersburg MD
Default

This peaks my interest, eagerly awaiting your results!
sen7inel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 11:59 AM   #362
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason miller View Post
I haven't kept up with this thread, but I wanted to point out one thing. Anyone hitting full boost at 4000 rpm with an ej205 and a td05h/7cm evo3 16g either has a bad tune, or a bad parts list. Sometimes the way dynos load a car will make it look like it's spooling later than it truly is. I had a Blouch evo3 16g on my car for 9 months, and saw full boost by 3700ish rpm in 3rd gear. Any "G" series compressor wheel will do the same or similar with a td05h/7cm exhaust setup.

Also, my spool results were on a Jorge tune. Don't get me wrong, Jorge is a great tuner, but he's also a safe tuner and doesn't run a lot of timing on normal daily driving maps. More aggressive timing could've spooled it a bit faster. That's part of why e85 spools quicker- you can run more timing. Manual boost controllers improve spool too; I'm just running a 3 port BCS.

Food for thought: JSarv is running an 18g with a td05h/8cm hotside, and gets twenty-some psi by 3400 rpm in 3rd gear with a manual boost controller and e85. Also, testes1010 used to have a td05h/7cm 20g that hit 24 psi by 3750 on both his 93 and 93/meth maps. The highlighted numbers are for emphasis on things that people commonly believe produce horrrrrible spool, btw.
I thought the 16g should be spooling up a little quicker. I did see a few results where people are getting peak boost by 3500 or 3600rpm, but the majority of what I saw is in the 3800-4100rpm range. I suppose in the grand scheme of things that's not really slow. And the possibilities with e85, meth, mbc, new bcs, or an ewg are all great, but I think its going against the overall point of this thread.

I apologize if I'm wrong on this, but I get the feeling that this thread exists to find and discuss a middle ground option for the 2.0L motor. There are a few who want to put the 19T on a 2.5L, but the majority of people following this thread are looking for an affordable upgrade option that fits somewhere between the stock 13T and the current, common next step of a 16G. There is no denying that the 16G will provide decent response characteristics and make more power up top than the 19T. Its just that most of us like the quick response characteristics of the stock turbo and are looking for a way to maintain as much of that characteristic as possible while also finding a bit more power. I expect that this 19T upgrade will be a wonderful middle ground option for people who value response over peak power.



I won't speak for everyone, but I don't need the top end provided by a 16G. I spend most of my time between 2500rpm and 5500rpm during my daily drive on the freeway or enjoying some twisty roads on a weekend. I seldom push the car into the high revs. The 19T is going to provide quicker response, and it should be very similar to a 16G across the midrange. I don't really care about the top end. Whichever turbo I use is still going to provide more power than stock.
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 12:58 PM   #363
jason miller
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 158313
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: W Laf, In
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
PSM

Default

Oh, I understand completely where you're coming from. I just wanted to try and elaborate what the other turbos are capable of. I'll be interested to see your results. Good luck!
jason miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 09:09 PM   #364
BoostUnderPressure03
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 117724
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Ft Wayne
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
WRB

Default

I'm interested in this as well because I love the response of the stock turbo. I want more power without having to go to a turbo such as the 16g or 18g. Just like scooby921 I do a majority of my driving around town and usually keep the the revs lower, but every once in a while I hold out the revs higher than 5500
BoostUnderPressure03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 12:44 PM   #365
twheats1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 147722
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rockford, IL
Vehicle:
11 Rug
00 R 1100RS

Default

I'm awaiting ForesterWTi's results as well. My Baja is a 2.5 and weighs about 400lbs more than a WRX. I am looking for a little more power, but with the weight of the Baja I don't want to lose the quick spool up of the TD04.

I'm hoping the TE04 wheel will be a good compromise between quick spool and still having a good increase at higher RPM.
twheats1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 03:21 PM   #366
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason miller View Post
I haven't kept up with this thread, but I wanted to point out one thing. Anyone hitting full boost at 4000 rpm with an ej205 and a td05h/7cm evo3 16g either has a bad tune, or a bad parts list. Sometimes the way dynos load a car will make it look like it's spooling later than it truly is. I had a Blouch evo3 16g on my car for 9 months, and saw full boost by 3700ish rpm in 3rd gear. Any "G" series compressor wheel will do the same or similar with a td05h/7cm exhaust setup.
dyno loads usually don't match street loads. Usually spool is later on a dyno than on the street. To fully understand, you have to compare a stage II dyno with an EVO III dyno on the same dyno in similar conditions. Then you have to add some processing of your own to translate how that will change when you're on the street rather than on the dyno.

Also, I think comparing where a turbo reaches full boost is not a great benchmark. Two turbos at 10psi flow different amounts of air. You want to look at dyno charts (same dynos, similar conditions) and see where the torque curves cross. Typically larger turbos will also be more efficient, so even though two turbos reach full boost XXX RPM apart, the torque curves will cross somewhere less than XXX RPM apart.

To illustrate the point, here's an example of a couple different Stage II TD04 tunes on 2.0L and and and EvoIII on 2.0L on on EFI's dyno (these dyno databases are AWESOME for just this kind of thing)


The green Stage II comes on insanely early compared to others in their database, I'm not sure what's up with it, but I included it because it doesn't really change where the crossover is. The red matches much closer to pretty much every other Stage II TD04 dyno in their database.

In both cases, the EvoIII is crossing around 3600-3700 RPM. At that point, the TD04s are making full boost and the EvoIII is still building. It's somewhere around 3psi lower boost pressure where it's making the same power (16G EvoIII at ~15 psi, TD04s are maxed around 18psi)

Most importantly, if you compare the red line to the blue line, you see the boost difference is about 500 RPM between the TD04 and EvoIII. However the torque difference is significantly narrower, more like 300 RPM difference. And torque is what matters here. This is the primary reason comparing where turbos make full boost is not necessarily a good indicator of how different a turbo will actually feel. The other reason, is someone else's full boost is going to be different than yours. In this case, full boost is 20-21psi on the EvoIII and 18 psi on the TD04. Given it makes similar power at 15psi to the TD04 at 18psi, it's going to be WAY past the TD04 by 20psi.

So for most people with an average Stage II TD04 seetup on a 2.0L, a 16G Evo III will make less power than the TD04 until about +300 RPM of wherever they make full boost now. At that point it crosses over and makes gobs more power.

People who are majorly concerned about lag are often not comparing apples to apples, they're looking at dyno charts of larger turbos (generally will make boost at higher RPM than on the street) and comparing that to what they see on their boost gauge on the street. They see sometimes 1000 RPM difference for relatively mild turbo upgrades and freak out about lag. However, when you do comparisons in the same environment, the difference is typically much smaller. As jason miller noted, logs on the street show full boost for some larger turbos at much lower RPM. And when you further consider that equal torqu will come at lower boost, larger turbos feel much less laggy than they look on a chart once they're installed.

This is why you don't hear a whole lot of people who install larger turbos, then decide it's too large / laggy and go back to something smaller. The actual feel is not nearly as laggy as it looks on a chart.

Last edited by Concillian; 01-26-2010 at 06:37 PM.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 04:15 PM   #367
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe View Post
I'm in the process of building a 2.35 stroker with EJ205 heads, and maybe STi cams.

I'm almost tempted to get the TE04H-19T just for stupid response and torque, but I'm afraid it'd choke really bad on the top end.
2.35 stroker? Is this a 2.2 stroked? or a 2.5 de-stroked?

I think I'd consider upping compression if my goal were response with a 2.35 and a small-ish turbo.

Last edited by Concillian; 01-23-2010 at 04:40 PM.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 03:00 PM   #368
Scooby921
Merci Buckets
Moderator
 
Member#: 88606
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Clarkston
Vehicle:
2011 GMC Sierra
'13 JCW

Default

So for an extra $50 the turbine housing will be high-temp coated. Injectors are back and clean. Just ordered a new boost control solenoid today. All that's left is a new clutch and that annoying part where I wait for everything to arrive...
Scooby921 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 04:54 PM   #369
Audioexcels
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 104824
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here and There
Vehicle:
2001 Saab 9-3
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
Yes but with PT it's $425 for an entire turbo! The shipping is cheap to any of the states in the USA, i.e. you only have to ship it one way --- direct to you.

Furthermore, for that price PT starts with a TD04 and fully rebuilds it and installs a brand new bearing --- Blouch will rebuild and they will put in a new bearing BUT for ot more than just the $325 for the 19t wheel to be put in...

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
What is PT's website or Ebay handle? I'd like to see their stuff. Thanks!
Audioexcels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 07:13 PM   #370
ForesterWTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173892
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Steamboat Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 OB EZ30R LLBean
champagne gold

Default Performance Technique's INFO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioexcels View Post
What is PT's website or Ebay handle? I'd like to see their stuff. Thanks!
their website is:
http://turbocharged.com/main.htm
and yeah i know there isn't a direct subaru page...
...just call James at PT direct 909-824-1020

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subar...hZitem19b9665c
Ebay Item Number: 110484675632
...This is the best way to get your hands on a te04h/19t TD04 turbo,
I got mine for $422 shipped!!!

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO
ForesterWTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 07:20 PM   #371
illmatic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3536
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SD, OC
Vehicle:
2013 SWP BRZ Limited
2002/2003 AW/PSM WRX

Default

^ebay link does not work
This one should.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subar...item19b9665c30
illmatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 11:54 PM   #372
ForesterWTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 173892
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Steamboat Springs, CO
Vehicle:
2005 OB EZ30R LLBean
champagne gold

Default


Thanx i guess that PT turbo already sold...

Cheers!
~Wolf
ForesterWTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 03:55 PM   #373
knuts
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 116814
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2003 wrx wagon
blue

Default

I installed a ported and clipped TD04-19T on my '03 wagon a few years back and can offer some observations for those considering this option. First a little background... Like others interested in keeping the td04 hot side, my initial goals included preserving as much of the low-end response of the stock turbo as possible, while adding some additional flow capability in the mid-range. Also, since I live in Colorado, I wanted a compressor section capable of achieving a 3.0 PR. After seeing a flow map of the 19T on stealth316.com, I believed I had found a combination that would meet my modest goals.

My 2.0L has all stock bottom end, heads, and intake and exhaust manifolds with the following relevant mods:
APS turbo inlet and intercooler
STi up-pipe
COBB catless down-pipe
STi exhaust pipe and muffler

Tuning was accomplished with streetTUNER and an Innovate LM-1 wideband using the following process:
(1) Starting point was the COBB ST FP16G 91 MTv100 base map modified with a 25% increase to boost limits
(2) Turbo Dynamics parameters were then optomized for the TD04-19T via numerous on road data logging sessions
(3) Boost target, WGD cycles, and the WG actuator spring rate were then optomized to achieve 16psi peak boost tapering to 14psi
(4) Fueling was then optomized for E85 and boost was raised to 19psi peak tapering to 17psi.
(5) Finally, timing was optomized on a loading dyno (generally resulting in 8-10 degrees added advance across the board)

The following observations are based on datalogs collected over a 4 year period beginning in January '06. The decision to upgrade to the 19T compressor wheel quickly followed stg 2 mods and consequently I don't have a lot of experience with the capability of the stock turbo pushed to its limits. This is further compounded by the fact that I did not have streetTUNER at the time, and was using an ots Cobb stage 2 map whith all its limitations. The 19T hybrid was installed in May of '06 and the dyno tuning session was completed in Febuary '08. In the past 2 yrs, my E85 tune has continued to evolve with minor tweaks to boost levels as my curiosity about the limitations of this hybrid have eclipsed my earlier goals.

The boost vs rpm data presented below is given in a range of values where sufficient datalogs were captured to account for variations in air density and temperature. Unfortunately, I only have a handful of datalogs for stg 2, and so these values are approximate based on limited data. All of these datalogs were captured on the same stretch of road at ~6500 ft elevation. The highest stg 2 peak boost I was able to achieve with the ots map at this elvation was 14 psi. The PR required to make this pressure at 6500 ft is approximately 2.25, so for comparitave purposes, this same PR would result in a pressure of ~17 psi at sea level.

(1) Boost threshold on the 19T wheel is below 2000 rpm, although significant boost (5 psi) is not available until ~2500 rpm with both gasoline and E85. There may be some additional minor gains to be be had by optomizing timing for E85 at low rpm, but i have not done this to date. In contrast my stg 2 data logs show 5 psi available at ~2000 rpm and 10 psi at ~2500 rpm on the stock turbo. I attribute the delta to the exhaust wheel clip as these boost values are seen at more or less steady state conditions.

(2) During a 3rd gear pull on the road with the stock turbo, 14 psi occurs at ~2900 rpm. On the same stretch of road with the 19T using gasoline, 14 psi occurs at 3100-3300 rpm depending on ambient temperature at the time of the pull (0C vs 20C). Unfortunately I did not record the temperature at the time of the stg 2 pull, but based on the time of year (mid-March) and time of day (7pm) of the data log, I estimate the ambient temperature at between 0 and 10C. So it would appear that the delta is approximately 200-300 rpm for spool up to a PR of 2.25

(3) During a 3rd gear pull on the road with E85, 19 psi (PR ~2.9) is available by 3200-3400 rpm (-10C vs 10C). On a Dyno Dynamics (constant acceleration sweep test), 19 psi is available by ~3700 rpm with ambient temperature at ~10C. The delta here can be attributed to the slightly higher load experienced during spool-up on the road vs. the dyno.

(4) During both road and dyno pulls at a PR of ~2.9, the MAF increases linearly from end of spool-up to ~5500 rpm, then typically levels out and is relatively flat until redline. This would seem to suggest that either the compressor secton or the turbine section is choked at engine speeds above 5500 rpm and high PR. I estimate that the compressor is flowing only ~450 cfm from 5500 to redline, so although it is likely approaching choke flow, there should be another 50 cfm or so available at this PR. This would seem to suggest, that as might be expected, the relatively small turbine section is choked above 5500 rpm at high boost levels.

(5) By rapidly ramping up WGD cycles between 5000-6000 rpm, I have been able to maintain 20+ psi to redline with the 19T wheel. Above 6000 rpm, it is necessary to rapidly ramp down WGD cycles back to baseline to prevent overboost as the "natural" VE of the stock EJ205 rapidly falls off after ~6000 rpm. Increasing the boost from 17 to 20+ psi has not resulted in any increase in MAF above 5500 rpm, further evidence supporting that the turbine section is choked and reducing VE due to very high exhaust back pressure at these high boost levels.

Analysis and recommendations:
(1) It appears that the exhaust wheel clip has a greater affect on the low-end steady state response than on spool-up characteristics. This makes sense, if you consider that at low engine speeds, the exhaust energy (temperaure and pressure) is dramatically lower than that available during spool-up. Any reduction in turbine impeller surface area should be expected to significantly impact energy recovery and therefore availabe boost pressure at low engine speeds. As the exhaust energy increases during spool-up, the turbine housing size may be the dominant factor in terms of available boost and whether or not the exhast wheel is clipped may be less important. This seems to be supported by the above observations.

(2) The ported and clipped 19T hybrid has met my initial expectations and I believe is a good compromise for those individuals with an ej205 with stock block and heads looking for a turbo with good mid-range power and low-end response. It is well balanced in terms of low-end response and peak output giving up about 500 rpm to the stock turbo at the low-end (pre-spool)and about 500 rpm to a td05 hotside at the top-end. In my opinion, this turbo is a good choice for those who value mid-range "grunt" over peak top-end power and fast trap times. For those of you familiar with sportbikes, this turbo is analogous to a big bore twin, such as an Aprilia or Ducati. It comes on nice and hard in the mid-range and pulls all the way to redline, but doesn't have the insane top-end of an inline 4 like a GSXR or R1. Like the big bore sporting twin this turbo is well suited to canyon carving whith its fat mid-range reducing effort as you roll on and off the throttle between apexes. If you believe that your goals are in line with this capabilty, I don't think you will disappointed. On the other hand, if you believe you will desire more than 260 whp at some point in the future, step up to the td05 hotside and don't look back. As has been stated previously in this thread, a well tuned 16g will lag this hybrid by a mere few hundred rpm and extend peak power to above 6000 rpm.

(3) In theory, an unclipped TD04-19T paired with an EWG should significantly extend both the bottom-end and top-end performance. This may not yet be demonstrated, but it seems very possible that such a combination would outperform a small 16G and perhaps even come close to matching the top-end of a large 16g. It is very tempting to pursue this, but we are really only talking about an additional 10-15% gain, and the added cost and effort for me can not be justified at this time. The added noise of the EWG is for me an additional deterrent to going down this path.

Ken
knuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 04:32 PM   #374
sanremo_russ
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56465
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Mukilteo
Vehicle:
2004 WRX - VF34
SRR

Default

Great feedback Ken. Thanks for taking the time to provide the details. I didn't see fuel injectors/fuel pump in your list of modification so can I assume you are running stockers with the 19T? If so were you limited at all? IDC's?
sanremo_russ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #375
knuts
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 116814
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colorado Springs
Vehicle:
2003 wrx wagon
blue

Default

I installed STi pinks with the turbo upgrade. Before pushing boost to 20+ to redline, I also added a fuel rail, walbro, and aeromotive fpr for additional headroom. I currently run the rail at 53 psi static.

As a point of reference, on my gasoline tune, the IDCs are now peaking at 70-75% above 6000 rpm with boost at 14.5 psi and lambda at 0.72

On E85, the IDCs are peaking at 90-95% above 6000 rpm with boost at 17.5 psi and lambda at 0.72
knuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
td04 19t blouch upgrade. WhiteBgeye02 Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 1 06-23-2010 08:35 PM
WTB td04 for 19t upgrade tanner127 Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 3 04-13-2010 08:04 PM
Blouch TD04 19T upgrade on 4EAT. Opinions Brock31 Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline 6 12-17-2009 10:35 AM
Blouch TD04 19T Upgrade lackofhp Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 8 10-31-2008 01:57 PM
TD04-19T questions. ringe Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 6 06-07-2008 07:19 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.