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Old 02-08-2010, 05:13 PM   #426
ForesterWTi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I'm quite certain they told me they use a TE04H. And yes, the TE04H is smaller by 0.03" at the inducer...but its 0.14" larger at the exducer. Regardless, it seems they've finally confirmed things and also confirmed that there isn't going to be much performance difference between the TD04H and TE04H wheels.


Wolf, I'm still excited to see what you get for results

I think they were more answering your questions about using a 18t with the HL wheel, and thus stating that they would rather use a 16t with the TE04H wheel...

...but regardless now we know exactly what comes with their "Monstah" TD04L when you buy from Ebay. (19T-TD04H TD04L)

I can't hardly wait to see my dyno numbers either scooby921, especially with e85 --- talk about all wheel response!

I just don't want to blow my stockie tranny, as I have the bug eyed 5spd. My 2nd and 3rd are still fine with no issues (at 119K), but they arrre notorious for the big bang theory.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:15 PM   #427
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Another reply from James @ PT..

Quote:
Actually I have doe them with the teo4h td04h and td04hl Currently I only
have the te04h and the td04hl wheels the td04h is back ordered.

Thanks
James
So it seems to really not matter what turbine wheel you use, but the information is still conflicting. As I have said before though, this is still the route I will be going. I just wish the information was a little more clear.

Oh, and this is in regards to the ebay turbo, so it could be any one of the three turbine wheels. Definitely not TD04H right now as it is backordered. You will either get a TE04H or TD04HL.

**UPDATE**

James confirmed this was a typo and in fact it is the TE04H that is out of stock, so it's only the TD04H and TD04HL right now.

Last edited by toflaherty; 02-08-2010 at 08:36 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:29 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by toflaherty View Post
Another reply from James @ PT..



So it seems to really not matter what turbine wheel you use, but the information is still conflicting. As I have said before though, this is still the route I will be going. I just wish the information was a little more clear.

Oh, and this is in regards to the ebay turbo, so it could be any one of the three turbine wheels. Definitely not TD04H right now as it is backordered. You will either get a TE04H or TD04HL.
I called James direct almost an hour ago.

He went back for me and physically checked their stock of wheels, as well as checked the turbos that were shipping out via ebay auction sales so that we can sort this all out.

One of my last post clarified all this (from my phone call info today)...

There is really no difference between the 3 hot side wheel upgrades, either of them are bigger than stock, and will "in turn" be an improvement.

The TE04H is the wheel on back order, the HL is not usually used at all unless asked for, and the H is what they have in house and commonly use for this "Monstah" TD04L on Ebay.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:11 PM   #429
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I think I would still be happier with the TD04H than the clipped TD04L. But just to push this discussion a little further......
Let's take the following table. Now, assuming this is all correct...

Code:
Wheel	Exducer (in.) 	Inducer (in.) 	Trim
TD04L 	1.62 		1.86 		76 	 
TD04H 	1.74 		2.04 		73 	 
TD04HL 	1.80 		2.05 		77 	 
TE04H 	1.88 		2.01 		87 	 
TD05H 	1.93 		2.20 		77
For a turbine wheel, larger trim means better flow with less backpressure but longer spool time. (from stealth316) So it looks like The TD04HL is the closest match to the TD04L trim, while being larger in all dimensions. However, the TE04H looks to have the best flow of them all, but this would greatly affect the spool time, which is what we are trying to avoid with this mod. If I had the choice I would probably go with the TD04HL since it is that much closer to the TD05H while maintaining the same trim. It looks to be the happy medium. Really not much difference from a TD04H though. What is unknown, however, is what the true effect any of this really has when coupled with the 19T compressor wheel..

So please take the above as just my public thinking. This is a great discussion and I'm just trying to expand on it and maybe learn some more about what might theoretically be the best option.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:56 PM   #430
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Default Clipped TD04L / Unclipped TD04H Back-to-Back Comparison

Hey Wolf... let me know when you're ready to tune. I'll meet up with you in Denver so we can do a comparison to see how much the clip is handicapping this hybrid. I'm sure there are some following this thread who would like to know. Since I'm running E85, this should be a good apples-to-apples.

I'm betting that spool will be very similar, but the TD04H should flow a bit better up top. After thinking about it a bit more this past weekend, I now believe that the clipped TD04L is likely limited by the amount of power that it can extract from the exhaust at a given temp/press. The larger TD04H turbine wheel (both diameter and width) should really make this hybrid shine!

What do you say?
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:38 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
The TE04H is the wheel on back order, the HL is not usually used at all unless asked for, and the H is what they have in house and commonly use for this "Monstah" TD04L on Ebay.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
Confirmed with James that this is the truth. Confusion removed. Given the choice, I'm going with the HL.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:22 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Hey Wolf... let me know when you're ready to tune. I'll meet up with you in Denver so we can do a comparison to see how much the clip is handicapping this hybrid. I'm sure there are some following this thread who would like to know. Since I'm running E85, this should be a good apples-to-apples.

I'm betting that spool will be very similar, but the TD04H should flow a bit better up top. After thinking about it a bit more this past weekend, I now believe that the clipped TD04L is likely limited by the amount of power that it can extract from the exhaust at a given temp/press. The larger TD04H turbine wheel (both diameter and width) should really make this hybrid shine!

What do you say?
NO......YESSS!!! {night at the roxberry haha} I'm so down Knutz. My bad I didn't even look at your location this whole tyme . Geeze. I'm wicked stoked to see a fellow colurful rado guy. I heard you CSprings people have a good scene down there.

What injectors are you running with your e85?
What IDC's are you seeing at peak boost?
Whats your peak boost?
What dyno and tuner are you using?

We could prob get a discount since we both need the same corn tune on a 2.0L with a 19T setup... but are you EWG?

Cheers!
~Wolf
WTi --- Steamboat Springs, CO

P.S. while we're on the subject; CALLING ALL CO SUBIES W/ 19T's!
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:29 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toflaherty View Post
I think I would still be happier with the TD04H than the clipped TD04L. But just to push this discussion a little further......
Let's take the following table. Now, assuming this is all correct...

Code:
Wheel    Exducer (in.)     Inducer (in.)     Trim
TD04L     1.62         1.86         76      
TD04H     1.74         2.04         73      
TD04HL     1.80         2.05         77      
TE04H     1.88         2.01         87      
TD05H     1.93         2.20         77
For a turbine wheel, larger trim means better flow with less backpressure but longer spool time. (from stealth316) So it looks like The TD04HL is the closest match to the TD04L trim, while being larger in all dimensions. However, the TE04H looks to have the best flow of them all, but this would greatly affect the spool time, which is what we are trying to avoid with this mod. If I had the choice I would probably go with the TD04HL since it is that much closer to the TD05H while maintaining the same trim. It looks to be the happy medium. Really not much difference from a TD04H though. What is unknown, however, is what the true effect any of this really has when coupled with the 19T compressor wheel..

So please take the above as just my public thinking. This is a great discussion and I'm just trying to expand on it and maybe learn some more about what might theoretically be the best option.
If presented with this choice and given this chart... IMO I would choose the TD04H wheel.

"For a turbine wheel, larger trim means better flow with less backpressure but longer spool time."

The trim is so small on the H wheel, while still being an improvement in size from the stockie L wheel. Great spool characteristics, while gaining more awhp/awtq over a stockie TD04L --- Isn't that what were all after here? (this IS just a 19T upgrade thread )

Cheers,
~Wolf
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:21 AM   #434
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No EWG. I've got STi pinks with the fuel rail running at 53 psi. Peak boost is 20 psi up to 5000 rpm, then tapering to 17 psi. Peak IDC's are in the low 90s above 6000 rpm.

I'm self-tuned using streetTuner and the Dyno Dynamics at Revolutions Performance here in the Springs, so I'd just do a pull for comparison purposes when your tuner is done with yours.

Maybe we could round-up someone with a VF39 on a 2.0L to do the same?
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:49 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
No EWG. I've got STi pinks with the fuel rail running at 53 psi. Peak boost is 20 psi up to 5000 rpm, then tapering to 17 psi. Peak IDC's are in the low 90s above 6000 rpm.

I'm self-tuned using streetTuner and the Dyno Dynamics at Revolutions Performance here in the Springs, so I'd just do a pull for comparison purposes when your tuner is done with yours.

Maybe we could round-up someone with a VF39 on a 2.0L to do the same?

Sweet iIm IWG too, but my IWG is ported and my prototype true divorced DP is VTA.

I can't believe your at low 90's with 565s, that's awesome news. I've been reading the e85 army thread and I was going to get 650's run stock pressure, but decided to go the 750cc route

Are you subscribed to The E85 ARMY?

I still don't know what target boost I should choose. This PT turbo has no dyno history with a 2.0L rex... yet. I was going to just say 18 psi, and if, when tuning, we have more room --- get up to 20. I have the stock bugeyed tranny and internals with 119k on them new seals, nice fresh pressure on the clutch and heads are fine...

Did I mention Daily-Driven, lol.

Dyno Dynamics at Revolutions Performance, eh? Do you have an existing relationship with them? I'm asking because I still wasn't sure were I am going, being in the boat... maybe if you didn't we could get on a dyno somewhere a little closer to me?

We should definitely try to find another 2.0L rex with the STi goodies! This is turning out to be a wicked cool meet and greet. Should be pretty sick to see all three so closely compared! And as a plus this thread would then be packed FULL of great information, and very helpful for 2.0L owners looking for some extra ooomph!

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:03 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
No EWG. I've got STi pinks with the fuel rail running at 53 psi. Peak boost is 20 psi up to 5000 rpm, then tapering to 17 psi. Peak IDC's are in the low 90s above 6000 rpm.

I'm self-tuned using streetTuner and the Dyno Dynamics at Revolutions Performance here in the Springs, so I'd just do a pull for comparison purposes when your tuner is done with yours.

Maybe we could round-up someone with a VF39 on a 2.0L to do the same?

Question, So you are running 565cc at your altitude way higher than mine as my mean sea level here is 13ft. How would the elevation change affect my IDC's would they go up or down with the pressure change. If 565's will support me then great, thats a few $$ saved or should I be looking at 650's or modded stockers so my IDC's are not so high? I would ask my tuner but I do not have one as of yet, I am still researching who I like.

Last edited by flyinghighlm; 02-09-2010 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:42 AM   #437
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There are various injector size calculators available online that you can use to estimate what size you will need. You can also work the numbers backward to see what maximum HP you could make with your chosen injectors. They aren't 100% accurate, but it gives you an idea where you need to be.

If you use the numbers for stock wrx 420cc injectors you get a maximum of ~250bhp at a 95% IDC. If you upgrade that to STi pink injectors at 550cc the theoretical max is ~330bhp. If you go with 650cc injectors your theoretical max is ~390bhp. I used 95% IDC because that's how far most push a stage 2 tune. If I were to drop to 90% with the STi pinks I intend to use then my max is ~315bhp. Keep in mind that this is just an estimate and its not incredibly accurate. Most stage 2 EJ20's are pushing close to 230whp, which is going to be a bit more than the 250bhp the calculator says you can make. The STi pink injectors are probably going to handle 340-350bhp which is going to net me the 270-280whp I'm hoping for.

If I happen to run out of room with the injectors I can always have my stock ones modified to 820cc and that'll be more than sufficient .





And just so everyone is aware, the STi pink injectors that everyone says are 565cc are actually 550cc. Mine flow tested at 548cc and the JDM ecu scaling for the pinks is 552cc.

Last edited by Scooby921; 02-09-2010 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:56 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by flyinghighlm View Post
Question, So you are running 565cc at your altitude way higher than mine as my mean sea level here is 13ft. How would the elevation change affect my IDC's would they go up or down with the pressure change. If 565's will support me then great, thats a few $$ saved or should I be looking at 650's or modded stockers so my IDC's are not so high? I would ask my tuner but I do not have one as of yet, I am still researching who I like.
You should be fine with pinks on gasoline at sea level. You'll likely be high in the duty cycles however, and a bump of 10 psi in fuel pressure and a good fuel pump would give you plenty of headroom.

On E85 you'll need 650's minimum (probably 750's) or so. At sea level you just won't be able to get away with pinks.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:45 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by flyinghighlm View Post
Question, So you are running 565cc at your altitude way higher than mine as my mean sea level here is 13ft. How would the elevation change affect my IDC's would they go up or down with the pressure change. If 565's will support me then great, thats a few $$ saved or should I be looking at 650's or modded stockers so my IDC's are not so high? I would ask my tuner but I do not have one as of yet, I am still researching who I like.
Since you are essentially at sea level, the ambient air pressure at your location is greater than the pressure at my location (~14.5 psi vs. ~11.5 psi). As a result, the air density (the mass of oxygen per unit volume) is proportionately greater.

So, assuming that you wish to take full advantage of the higher air density at your location, using the same hardware (2.0L stock engine, induction and exhaust mods, and TD04L-19Tturbo), you could push 25% (14.5 divided by 11.5) more air mass through your engine. This would also require that you use injectors that flow 25% more than the pinks that i am using.

However, of equal importance is the the type of fuel that you plan to use (gasoline vs. E85). If you think you may want to run E85 as some point in the future, you'll want to get injectors that can flow ~30% more than is required for gasoline due to the lower AFR necessary for ethanol.

So if you want to extrapolate from my data:

My IDCs peak at 75% on gasoline at 14.5 psi boost (26 psi absolute) with lambda at 0.72... multiply 75% by 1.25 and you have 94%... marginal but the pinks will likely be ok for you at sea level (assuming that you are not racing the car).

My IDCs peak at 90% on E85 at 17.5 psi boost (29 psi absolute) with lambda at 0.79... again multiply 90% by 1.25 and you have 113%... pinks will not be large enough for you with E85 at sea level. You would need at least 650cc injectors, or preferably 750cc injectors for E85 at sea level pushing the TD04L-19T at it's operational limit.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:55 PM   #440
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Whoa... hold on I almost forgot... i am running my fuel rail at 53 psi (stock value is 43 psi). I upgraded to the pinks before I realized that i wanted to run E85. Instead of upgrading the injectors again, I chose to install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for the added flexibility it would give me for switching between E85 and gasoline.


I mention this because with the higher fuel rail pressure, my 550cc rated injectors are flowing ~610cc. You'll need to take this into consideration if you extrapolate my data.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:06 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
You should be fine with pinks on gasoline at sea level. You'll likely be high in the duty cycles however, and a bump of 10 psi in fuel pressure and a good fuel pump would give you plenty of headroom.

On E85 you'll need 650's minimum (probably 750's) or so. At sea level you just won't be able to get away with pinks.
... good summary
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:22 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Whoa... hold on I almost forgot... i am running my fuel rail at 53 psi (stock value is 43 psi). I upgraded to the pinks before I realized that i wanted to run E85. Instead of upgrading the injectors again, I chose to install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for the added flexibility it would give me for switching between E85 and gasoline.


I mention this because with the higher fuel rail pressure, my 550cc rated injectors are flowing ~610cc. You'll need to take this into consideration if you extrapolate my data.
I'm debating using a FPR to bump the rail pressure on my car just to provide some head room in the IDC's. I'm assuming you just recalculated the injector flow to your higher rail pressure and dropped the new value into the ecu? I have the correct scaling and latency for the pinks at stock pressure. Just want to make sure I'm thinking correctly should I choose to install a FPR and boost the rail pressure.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:28 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Since you are essentially at sea level, the ambient air pressure at your location is greater than the pressure at my location (~14.5 psi vs. ~11.5 psi). As a result, the air density (the mass of oxygen per unit volume) is proportionately greater.

So, assuming that you wish to take full advantage of the higher air density at your location, using the same hardware (2.0L stock engine, induction and exhaust mods, and TD04L-19Tturbo), you could push 25% (14.5 divided by 11.5) more air mass through your engine. This would also require that you use injectors that flow 25% more than the pinks that i am using.

However, of equal importance is the the type of fuel that you plan to use (gasoline vs. E85). If you think you may want to run E85 as some point in the future, you'll want to get injectors that can flow ~30% more than is required for gasoline due to the lower AFR necessary for ethanol.

So if you want to extrapolate from my data:

My IDCs peak at 75% on gasoline at 14.5 psi boost (26 psi absolute) with lambda at 0.72... multiply 75% by 1.25 and you have 94%... marginal but the pinks will likely be ok for you at sea level (assuming that you are not racing the car).

My IDCs peak at 90% on E85 at 17.5 psi boost (29 psi absolute) with lambda at 0.79... again multiply 90% by 1.25 and you have 113%... pinks will not be large enough for you with E85 at sea level. You would need at least 650cc injectors, or preferably 750cc injectors for E85 at sea level pushing the TD04L-19T at it's operational limit.
Wow, thank you for the science and math lesson on this one. It make's sense, and I see what you are getting at as numbers have a way of explaining things.
There is e-85 around here but its still not that common so I am planning on sticking with pump gas 93 oct. I rather not "push" a sti pink to 90-95%, so just by process of elimination and data that has been provided I will look for something in the 650-850 range.
I am not in a huge hurry at this time and still months out so I will keep an eye out. You never know what kind of price one will find on injectors in the classifieds.
Thanks!
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:34 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
I still don't know what target boost I should choose. This PT turbo has no dyno history with a 2.0L rex... yet. I was going to just say 18 psi, and if, when tuning, we have more room --- get up to 20.
This is a good plan based on my experience with the turbo.

Quote:
Dyno Dynamics at Revolutions Performance, eh? Do you have an existing relationship with them? I'm asking because I still wasn't sure were I am going, being in the boat... maybe if you didn't we could get on a dyno somewhere a little closer to me?
Adam at Revolutions was very helpful getting me set up on the dyno and offered advice while i was tuning. Based on my limited interaction with him, i got the impression that he knows his trade very well.

Also here are a couple quotes that i pulled from another thread (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1#post21312291)...

Quote:
Revolutions has tuned some of the fastest Subrau's up here so that speaks for itself. As I recall his tunes hold the #1 and #3 postion on our local listings for ET at high altitude tracks.
That and due to the altitude, the turbo is working much much harder to get to its boost level 17 psi up here is about like running 22-24 psi at sea level as far as the turbo is concerned.

Larry
Quote:
Adam at Revolutions has tuned steve, ben, and my car, so he has the top 3 subaru's in CO (ones on the list anyway) I am #3 and i was the only one running E-85. ben and steve both ran 91 + meth injection. Steve and i are both upgrading our fuel systems to run 25-30+ psi on e-85 this season (not sure of ben's plans) We all three got into Pinks All Out at Bandimere as well!
Saying that Adam is very well respected within the tuning community here in Colorado may be an understatement!

Another option closer to you that hotrod (Larry -E85 fuel FAQ thread) has used, is Harvey at Superupair in Boulder.

Quote:
The Superupair shop car Harvey tuned on E85 is actually the other E85 car I was thinking of, it has run deep into the 11's (11.2 I think) while they were trying to "de-tune it" so they could run it legally without a cage since the cage was not installed last year. They almost got kicked out of the drag strip for that pass

I expect that car to be in the high 10's this year. So 2 of the top 4 cars are running E85, and Adam has tuned 3 of them.

Congratulations on the Pinks qualification that will be fun to see!

Larry
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:47 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I'm debating using a FPR to bump the rail pressure on my car just to provide some head room in the IDC's. I'm assuming you just recalculated the injector flow to your higher rail pressure and dropped the new value into the ecu? I have the correct scaling and latency for the pinks at stock pressure. Just want to make sure I'm thinking correctly should I choose to install a FPR and boost the rail pressure.
Yep, all i did was adjust the FI scale value to account for the 11% higher flow at 53 psi. I left the FI latency values the same for the pinks as is used at 43 psi. The added fuel rail pressure may change the actual latency of the injectors depending on the design of the valve, but I did not account for this and it seems to have worked out just fine.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:23 AM   #446
ForesterWTi
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Default Finally REAL Data

Finally we will have real data, same dyno, same car, granted mine is a GF8 but was swapped from Knuts' same car (bugeyed wagen).

I dunno maybe it's just me...?
But I am wicked excited!

-Finally we will have real life data on the Performance Techniques TD04L
-We will know whats better bigger hot side wheel or clipped
-If we get a 2.0 rex with the STi goods that would be crazy, anybody

---Furthermore, we can see if there is real all wheel advantage to running a TD04 turbo (with both wheels upgraded) without having to go EWG, i.e. my prototype true divorced DP that is VTA

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:11 AM   #447
Scooby921
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Good luck with your DP idea. I don't think its going to do anything except make noise, but I've been proven wrong before . I just don't see how giving the internal gate an open dump is any different than blending it back into the exhaust stream. Putting a block-off plate between the wastegate and turbine openings isn't suddenly going to make it flow more and act like an EWG. I suppose it'll create more back pressure around the wastegate and perhaps helps its ability to stay closed. Even so you are still working with the stock internal wastegate actuator. The big difference between IWG and EWG is the performance of the actuator.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
Finally we will have real data, same dyno, same car, granted mine is a GF8 but was swapped from Knuts' same car (bugeyed wagen).

I dunno maybe it's just me...?
But I am wicked excited!

-Finally we will have real life data on the Performance Techniques TD04L
-We will know whats better bigger hot side wheel or clipped
-If we get a 2.0 rex with the STi goods that would be crazy, anybody

---Furthermore, we can see if there is real all wheel advantage to running a TD04 turbo (with both wheels upgraded) without having to go EWG, i.e. my prototype true divorced DP that is VTA

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
I'm not event there and I'm excited.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:32 PM   #449
Scooby921
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Well...I was all excited about getting things installed this weekend and playing show and tell on Monday with some nice road dyno plots. Unfortunately I just found out my turbo is still not finished. The company doing the coating dropped the ball and instead of having it done today it'll be Monday. So no fun until next weekend .
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:47 PM   #450
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bummer! Good luck with the install when you get it though. Wish I was out there when you get ready to tune it!

In for results anyway. Damn being in the Midwest sucks. Out here in Nebraska most people think a tune is something you whistle, and look at me with this blank look on their face when I try to describe to them why my car doesnt sound like a normal honda, and yet doesnt have a V8 under the hood either. If its not a mustang or a camaro people get confused.
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