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Old 06-20-2010, 09:42 PM   #1176
rcodea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAImportTuner View Post
Also for all you guys, I wont be leaving anytime soon and every time I here a praise for PT without it deserving I will be here to say something negative.
what is the value added to doing this? who is really singing PT's praises...all that has been said is that it is a company with a long history of quality work, and they have worked well to try to resolve my issues without question...I dont understand your animosity

~Ryan
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:46 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by PAImportTuner View Post
The ones on the turbine and compressor wheels. Just unbolt the housings.
so you are asking me to unbolt my waranteed turbo to pull numbers off the wheels...and i am guessing these numbers are actually on the wheel base?

~Ryan
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:27 PM   #1178
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Well just got back from my trip to Illinois to see the GF. Time to get crackin on installing my new turbo. It got here friday after I was gone. Should have it installed tommorow evening. Probably won't have time for good logs until sometime Tuesday though.

Wolf when are you getting tuned?
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:25 AM   #1179
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Wolf when are you getting tuned?[/quote]

I will be trying to reuse a stockie injector o-ring because one got pinched as the fuel rail went in . The other sides' are leak free, lubricating with 5w-30 synthetic oil did the trick!

The only thing left to do is get my IWG-VTA-DP matted with the previous 3" DP I had on before, so that she will meet flush with the existing mid pipe. Also I need to put in my fuel pump. But then I'm all done... for now .

To recap the install/upgrades include:

-PE 650cc injectors
-Walbro 255 fp
-Hallman RX MBC (hard spring installed)
-3" 4 ply turbo inlet
-PT TD04 19T/H (with TIG welded wall divorcing the hot side)
-CX Racing 21"longx4.5"thick tmic
-tmic y-pipe (BIG)
-04-05 wrx up pipe, gutted cat
-Grimmspeed V2 x-pipe
-WTi prototype 3" w/1.5" dump, dual piped DP, no cats
-Rota Formula 18x8 w/48offset in HOT PINK w/chrome lip
-Toyo Extensa HP 215/35 speed rated to 149mph

Other parts previously installed:

***Full bug-eyed rex wagon swap (everything but the 1995 GF8 body, chassis, door pannels, headliner, sun visors, windshield-wiper-motor)

-AEM cai converted to sri
-3" midpipe. no cats
-3" axle back, blow through muffler w/slight JDM slant

I will be calling Harvey (who I'm grateful for being so patient and helpful) at Boost Creep Ltd. and setting up my tune for this week... finally! I am wiiicked stoked to see what "Pink Vader" will put down...

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi

P.S. Knuts dyno'ed on a Dyno Dynamics in Colorado Springs at Revolutions 5-26-10 and put down 270awhp/286.5awtq (TD04 19T/L-clipped) but on E85 w/IWG-EWG. I will also be on a Dyno Dynamics, however tuning on pump 91 octane w/IWG-VTA.

Last edited by ForesterWTi; 06-21-2010 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:32 PM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentDoomWgn View Post
why are you still posting in this thread paimorttuner? we get it, you dont like PT. good for you, now stop talking about it.
you need to wipe the sand out

sometimes the truth hurts. If you have rebuttals against the failures.....or can show blouch fails the same, then do so. Why should he not voice his opinion about PT's longevity? Isnt that the main point of forums....to get more of the truth out and not just ocmpany hype.


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Originally Posted by PAImportTuner View Post
Also for all you guys, I wont be leaving anytime soon and every time I here a praise for PT without it deserving I will be here to say something negative.
Im all about going against popular opinion and backing claims up with facts.....your only problem is your wording and "tone" of your posts.

I used to be the same way. And people dont really read into your info if they dont like the tone of your posts. I've found that asking questions back to the people is the best way to get them to go through your own thought process in their head.

IE, "If PT turbos have the same longevity as blouch then how do you explain these failures....link, link, link to failures.

"If PT turbos flow more or are a better combo than blouch then why are these dyno numbers the same....link, link, link"
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Old 06-21-2010, 01:21 PM   #1181
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'I dont know wtf happened!' -James @ PT

He is pulling apart a new core and doing everything new...shaft, bearings, wheels, etc. Should have it off to me on wed.

~Ryan

Last edited by rcodea; 06-21-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 01:40 PM   #1182
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Most excellent! Looking forward to seeing your results.

Ken
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:38 PM   #1183
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
you need to wipe the sand out
if he had any proof or experience of his own with PT i would agree with you. he isnt providing anything constructive to the thread. the only thing he says and continues to talk about it how PT is a waste of money and a rip off with no proof beyond a couple turbos that failed.

like you posted if you have links and proof to why and how the turbos failed i wouldnt have any problem with anything he has said or will say. until he actually has first hand experience with a turbo from PT, the comments being made about them should like you said be in the form of questions because no one knows what happened.

Making statements about quality of parts and the source of them with never actually having talked to anyone at PT or had one in hand, is out of line in my opinion.

thats like cutting an apple tree down because of 3 bad apples. not to mention the turbos in question and the people that purchased them have been taken care so far as posted.

you can not tell me that other turbo companies never have any bad turbos at all. we should be more concerned with how the customer service is when dealing with a failed product, not tearing a company apart.

Am i the only person that feels that way, in this thread?
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:44 PM   #1184
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I did take the opportunity to talk with Blouch today...for an outside opinion. They are of the theory that the clipped L wheel will flow as well as the standard H wheel in a TD04 housing, but with less rotating mass. The end result is that both will have similar boost characteristics, but for different reasons.

I then asked about the idea that the H or HL will hold higher boost throughout the rpm range, since there is a larger surface area in the turbin flow. They understood this application, but said the extended range would be limited to ~500rpm for full boost when at 20psi+. He was adamant that the tapper is going to happen, no matter the trims, when using the td04 housings(be it compressor or turbin).

The issue is the turbine’s internal pressure. To turn 20psi on the compressor side, especially at high rpm, the turbine has an internal pressure closer to 40psi, which means the internal gate will be forced open.

However, he did say that going to an EWG could make it possible to run and hold 20psi+ from 3500-7000rpm, but the tuner would be THE KEY to making it work. The tuner would have to manipulate WGDC and actually open the EWG at higher rpm to alleviate the pressure, but not reduce the gas velocity. Unfortunately, at that point, one would have paid for:

TD04H/HL-19T turbo(~$450 from Blouch)
EWG up-pipe($200)
EWG ($350)
Great tune(varied price)
…plus the turbo is being worked HARD.

He claimed that one would be smarter to go to a standard small 16g. At this point, the lose of the ~500rpm boost advantage from TD04 vs 16g is the sacrifice that is needed.

I aim to prove them/us/all wrong. I hypothesize 20psi from 3500rpm-redline can be done, resulting in ~30+whp advantage over what I already ran on Epic’s Mustang Dyno(240whp/tq). I’ll know more after getting the turbo back from PT next week, a bit of lazy brake-in, and a bit of retuning by Robbie at Epic…afterall, I will have a 15psi actuator, stock intake box/post MAF/snorkel, and the Grimmspeed 3-port EBCS that I will be changing to compared to the last time I was up there.

Time will tell!

~Ryan
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:49 PM   #1185
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Ron wasn't attacking PT just defending the other guy's ability to voice his opinion. Good part about this whole thing is that PT is taking care of the broken ones without question. As I stated several pages back Blouch had a problem with welds cracking on the Dom 3's. They responded by not only fixing but upgrading the turbos. I see no difference in the companies as far as that goes.
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:52 PM   #1186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
He claimed that one would be smarter to go to a standard small 16g. At this point, the lose of the ~500rpm boost advantage from TD04 vs 16g is the sacrifice that is needed.

I aim to prove them/us/all wrong. I hypothesize 20psi from 3500rpm-redline can be done, resulting in ~30+whp advantage over what I already ran on Epic’s Mustang Dyno(240whp/tq). I’ll know more after getting the turbo back from PT next week, a bit of lazy brake-in, and a bit of retuning by Robbie at Epic…afterall, I will have a 15psi actuator, stock intake box/post MAF/snorkel, and the Grimmspeed 3-port EBCS that I will be changing to compared to the last time I was up there.

Time will tell!

~Ryan

You sir, have a pair of balls that must be fairly large. I will admit, I would have given up by this point and I am not ashamed to say that. I give all of you on the pt19t a ton of credit for trying something new but I will be going a tried and true route. Not that its better or worse, I just dont have the time to have a car down when things go wrong this often (hopefully isolated events). I see a 16g in my future or just saying F'it and a 2.5 swap, just depends on time.

I will continue to watch this but for those of you running this turbo and tuning, I wish you the best of luck and please continue to post with all the info you can. One never knows what will happen and this leads me to my fav quote of all time,

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:52 PM   #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentDoomWgn View Post
you can not tell me that other turbo companies never have any bad turbos at all. we should be more concerned with how the customer service is when dealing with a failed product, not tearing a company apart.

Am i the only person that feels that way, in this thread?
diddo!

this is exactly why I am still working with PT...i have no reason thus far to show that it is THEIR falt that the turbo failed, nor that they wanted to take my money and run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenacious Bee View Post
Good part about this whole thing is that PT is taking care of the broken ones without question. I see no difference in the companies as far as that goes.
diddo here!

~Ryan

Last edited by rcodea; 06-21-2010 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:55 PM   #1188
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You sir, have a pair of balls that must be fairly large. I will admit, I would have given up by this point and I am not ashamed to say that. I give all of you on the pt19t a ton of credit for trying something new but I will be going a tried and true route. Not that its better or worse, I just dont have the time to have a car down when things go wrong this often (hopefully isolated events). I see a 16g in my future or just saying F'it and a 2.5 swap, just depends on time.

I will continue to watch this but for those of you running this turbo and tuning, I wish you the best of luck and please continue to post with all the info you can. One never knows what will happen and this leads me to my fav quote of all time,

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "
Ralph Waldo Emerson
cheers dude, I can respect a man like yourself...no harm done, made your point, and did it respectfully.

Let us know how it turns out!

~Ryan
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:57 PM   #1189
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Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
......
The issue is the turbine’s internal pressure. To turn 20psi on the compressor side, especially at high rpm, the turbine has an internal pressure closer to 40psi, which means the internal gate will be forced open.

However, he did say that going to an EWG could make it possible to run and hold 20psi+ from 3500-7000rpm, but the tuner would be THE KEY to making it work. The tuner would have to manipulate WGDC and actually open the EWG at higher rpm to alleviate the pressure, but not reduce the gas velocity.

He claimed that one would be smarter to go to a standard small 16g. At this point, the lose of the ~500rpm boost advantage from TD04 vs 16g is the sacrifice that is needed.
.............
Excellent research Ryan!

I have a few issues with what they are saying here. I agree that an EWG is going to be the best solution to holding the boost, and that it could take as much as 40 psi in the turbine to achieve the higher pressure.

However....I completely disagree with opening the wastegate at higher RPM's to "relieve" the pressure. Why relieve the pressure? That pressure is what is allowing you to achieve 20+psi. If you open the wastegate, you'll loose pressure in the turbine housing, causing the compressor speed to stop increasing. Or at least stop it from accelerating to a point where enough air is ingested to maintain your boost target.

On another topic, is 450$ what blouch charges for both the 19T upgrade AND the H turbine wheel upgrade?

I also agree that a 16G is probably the smarter decision when talking about that much money, and likely would have a disadvantage of less than 500 RPM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:08 PM   #1190
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could it be the excessive pressure differential from before the turbine to after the turbine?

it was said that the H/HL wheels were larger allowing more exhaust gas to pass through, which lowered that pressure differential.
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:10 PM   #1191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post

I also agree that a 16G is probably the smarter decision when talking about that much money, and likely would have a disadvantage of less than 500 RPM.

one other question, when comparing spool characteristics, what exactly are we comparing? To clarify, lets say the S16G is 500 rpm "slower", would the use of a GS x-over, mani and other "flow" mods not compensate for the difference?

Or is this comparison taking into account each car would be identical except for the turbo?
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:31 PM   #1192
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However....I completely disagree with opening the wastegate at higher RPM's to "relieve" the pressure. Why relieve the pressure? That pressure is what is allowing you to achieve 20+psi. If you open the wastegate, you'll loose pressure in the turbine housing, causing the compressor speed to stop increasing. Or at least stop it from accelerating to a point where enough air is ingested to maintain your boost target.
I am not smart on how EWG operations, so i cant speak to how this would help things.I got the impression from the discussion that the pressure in the turbin is actually causing a hinderance to higher compressor boost pressures. makes since...higher pressure means that flow is restricted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
On another topic, is 450$ what blouch charges for both the 19T upgrade AND the H turbine wheel upgrade?
he didnt say specificly, $350 for the clipped L...but the H wheel is "very expensive" plus the machining for the turbine accepting it...and instead "would be cheaper to go to a 16g". I am speculating on the $450 quote...he didnt want to give a quote...try calling and asking...i might ask tomorrow too.

~Ryan
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:32 PM   #1193
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Or is this comparison taking into account each car would be identical except for the turbo?
yes, cars being identical and only the 19t vs 16g difference

~Ryan
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Old 06-21-2010, 07:43 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
However, he did say that going to an EWG could make it possible to run and hold 20psi+ from 3500-7000rpm, but the tuner would be THE KEY to making it work. The tuner would have to manipulate WGDC and actually open the EWG at higher rpm to alleviate the pressure, but not reduce the gas velocity. Unfortunately, at that point, one would have paid for:

TD04H/HL-19T turbo(~$450 from Blouch)
EWG up-pipe($200)
EWG ($350)
Great tune(varied price)
…plus the turbo is being worked HARD.
you rang? mine is almost running. junior has an ext gated td04 on his car now too

td04 + tial 44mm

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Old 06-21-2010, 07:54 PM   #1195
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Stock TD04, 19T? Clipped L? H/HL? There's plenty of info on the stocker with EWG, or at least that you can find if you search.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:19 PM   #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
I did take the opportunity to talk with Blouch today...for an outside opinion. They are of the theory that the clipped L wheel will flow as well as the standard H wheel in a TD04 housing, but with less rotating mass. The end result is that both will have similar boost characteristics, but for different reasons.
I agree with the above for the most part. At very high pressure ratio (PR >2.5), however, I suspect that the improved efficiency of the larger unclipped wheel will provide better performance. By improved efficiency, I mean that the larger wheel will require less exhaust manifold pressure to maintain a given level of boost. The lower exhaust manifold pressure will then allow a greater mass air flow through the engine for that given level of boost. For a visual comparison of the size difference between an L and an HL wheel, see this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
I then asked about the idea that the H or HL will hold higher boost throughout the rpm range, since there is a larger surface area in the turbin flow. They understood this application, but said the extended range would be limited to ~500rpm for full boost when at 20psi+. He was adamant that the tapper is going to happen, no matter the trims, when using the td04 housings(be it compressor or turbin).
I've presented data in this discussion (post #381) showing that it is possible to hold 20 psi of boost to redline with a ported housing and clipped L wheel. This should also be possible with an H/HL wheeled unit. Some will argue that you are just blowing hot air when doing this, but I would propose (and the data I've collected support this) that since the 19T compressor efficiency is ~70% under these conditions, the limiting factor is the turbine wheel and/or housing which results in excessive exhaust manifold pressure.

If the turbine wheel is large enough, it should be possible to reduce the housing limitation by using an EWG. However, the clipped L wheel does not appear to be large (efficient) enough to benefit from removing the TD04 housing limitation (by using an EWG)... see post #876

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
The issue is the turbine’s internal pressure. To turn 20psi on the compressor side, especially at high rpm, the turbine has an internal pressure closer to 40psi, which means the internal gate will be forced open.
I suspect that the relationship between exhaust manifold pressure and boost pressure is not linear. In other words, at a moderate PR, say 2, the relationship may be 2:1 as suggested by Blouch. However, as you approach a PR of 3, the relationship may be growing exponentially. Although I have not measured it, I would not be surprised to learn that the exhaust manifold pressure is well over 50 psi at high rpm and boost levels with my clipped L wheel.

I suggest that if you are not compressor or compressor housing flow limited (as I believe is the case with the 19T upgrade), that the relationship between exhaust manifold pressure and boost pressure will dictate how much peak power is achieveable. So while its possible to maintain target boost to redline, there will always be MAF taper due to the increasing EGBP to maintain that boost and the flow limitations of the cylinder heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
However, he did say that going to an EWG could make it possible to run and hold 20psi+ from 3500-7000rpm, but the tuner would be THE KEY to making it work. The tuner would have to manipulate WGDC and actually open the EWG at higher rpm to alleviate the pressure, but not reduce the gas velocity.
Again this will only work if the turbine wheel is large enough to maintain target boost at the lower EGBP made possible by using the EWG. If it is, mass flow through the engine will increase due to the reduced restriction and the additional overall benefit of venting the excess pressure to atmosphere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
Unfortunately, at that point, one would have paid for:

TD04H/HL-19T turbo(~$450 from Blouch)
EWG up-pipe($200)
EWG ($350)
Great tune(varied price)
…plus the turbo is being worked HARD.

He claimed that one would be smarter to go to a standard small 16g. At this point, the lose of the ~500rpm boost advantage from TD04 vs 16g is the sacrifice that is needed.
Depends on your objectives. EWG with a smaller housing (in some cases) will provide better overall performance. This obviously, is not always true, but can be with carefully chosen components (and likely a lot of trial and error to get to those components).

Can't argue though that the small 16g is a good bet if cost effectiveness and plug and play are your main considerations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
I aim to prove them/us/all wrong. I hypothesize 20psi from 3500rpm-redline can be done, resulting in ~30+whp advantage over what I already ran on Epic’s Mustang Dyno(240whp/tq). I’ll know more after getting the turbo back from PT next week, a bit of lazy brake-in, and a bit of retuning by Robbie at Epic…afterall, I will have a 15psi actuator, stock intake box/post MAF/snorkel, and the Grimmspeed 3-port EBCS that I will be changing to compared to the last time I was up there.
I suspect that there is a potential 5-10% peak power improvement to be had with the larger wheel. Hopefully the turbo failures are behind us and you and xsnap can get the data to show if this is possible
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Old 06-21-2010, 10:59 PM   #1197
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^^^Ken, always a great bit of info from you. time will tell.

I'll bet the 15psi actuator is over-kill for me, and that i only really need to go to the 3-port. hopefully i will know more ina few weeks!

~Ryan
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:33 PM   #1198
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The 15 psi actuator will certainly make it easier to target and control high boost levels, but may be a bit annoying for driving around town (and using cruise on the highway in hilly terrain) due to not being able to target less than about 13-14 psi at part throttle.

You might consider just using helper springs for a temporary solution at substantially less cost. I've done this with parts purchased at my local Ace hardware for less than $10. If you're interested in pursuing this option, I can get part numbers and picture for you.
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:35 AM   #1199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenacious Bee View Post
Ron wasn't attacking PT just defending the other guy's ability to voice his opinion. Good part about this whole thing is that PT is taking care of the broken ones without question. As I stated several pages back Blouch had a problem with welds cracking on the Dom 3's. They responded by not only fixing but upgrading the turbos. I see no difference in the companies as far as that goes.
Quality parts and process by Blouch is different. That's why it cost $100 more and you use your own turbo core. They have a low COLA(cost of living/overhead) and have far more work going through them that it will allow them to get better pricing on turbo parts. Yet they are more a little more $$ for the upgrade. So I'm questioning the "genuine" parts and workmanship.

The PT19T will not last much boosting 20psi. I'm willing to bet it all on it, that it can't last 1 season(16 races for me in 1.5 regions) of auto-x duty at 22psi tapering to 17-19psi. When stock and Blouch 19Ts can. My td04 lasted end of last season and still running strong this season @ 20-17.

Also let me reiterate that pulling a turbo off 2-3 times in 1 month is not cool in any way, shape or form. NEITHER is having to paying shipping 3 times. I hope for the best, but I wont feel bad if the third time it takes your engine out.

Just sayin..
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Old 06-22-2010, 12:56 AM   #1200
PAImportTuner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcodea View Post
'I dont know wtf happened!' -James @ PT

He is pulling apart a new core and doing everything new...shaft, bearings, wheels, etc. Should have it off to me on wed.

~Ryan
That made me laugh, because I don't think anyone could figure out what happened to your turbo, it was FUBAR'd! LOL

Wed will be a treat I'll be back then. Hope for the best.

Glad you talked to Blouch about this and I said before that the wheel upgrade differences is so small and can be sum'd up with a tune. 3-500rpm is nothing.
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