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Old 04-03-2011, 09:08 PM   #1551
azscooby
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Quote:
Do you have any idea of why your system was so laggy when others are seeing that amount of boost at least 500 RPM sooner on the small 16G in 3rd gear?
No I do not. Neither did my tuner - though he seemed to think this was well within the range of average and did not offer up any suggestions as to why it was so slow to spool.

I am currently getting a CEL (P0037) and the car is either pulling timing really bad or not hitting full boost (or both.)

When I clear the CEL it runs fine again, which makes me think the problem is in the tune and not mechanical.

I'm not sure whether I will go back to that tuner or start from scratch with another tuner.

any input on getting the most out of this upgrade?

I was hitting full boost before well before 3K rpms on the stock td04 - then the tune and it went way up.
I did a number of upgrades at the same time so I have no way of knowing what it is that is causing the slow spool.

Any input?

thanks.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:38 PM   #1552
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Originally Posted by azscooby View Post
No I do not. Neither did my tuner - though he seemed to think this was well within the range of average and did not offer up any suggestions as to why it was so slow to spool.

I am currently getting a CEL (P0037) and the car is either pulling timing really bad or not hitting full boost (or both.)

When I clear the CEL it runs fine again, which makes me think the problem is in the tune and not mechanical.

I'm not sure whether I will go back to that tuner or start from scratch with another tuner.

any input on getting the most out of this upgrade?

I was hitting full boost before well before 3K rpms on the stock td04 - then the tune and it went way up.
I did a number of upgrades at the same time so I have no way of knowing what it is that is causing the slow spool.

Any input?

thanks.
p0037 is for the rear O2 sensor. You should have the tuner disable that code. Also what makes you think you are pulling timing or not reaching full boost? Do you have any way of logging your car to see if it is? Or at least to see if your knocking bad? Boost gauge?

I don't know why your spool was so slow. Your mods are good, and should only help. Barring mechanical issues, I would also question your tune. Perhaps getting a manual boost controller and running a hybrid boost control setup would also be good for you. It would allow for much easier boost tuning and provide the quickest possible spool up.

I believe in your case, the hybrid system would be a great fit, as the small TD04L 6cm^2 hotside will spool very quickly. With just an MBC, you would likely tire quickly of the part throttle/full boost phenomenon.

The problem with quoting boost figures is they are so load dependent. If you said you didn't reach full boost until 4100 RPM in 1st gear, then I would think that is fine. However if your not hitting it until that RPM in 3rd gear, then there is a problem. A lot of factors come in to play as well, like density altitude, if your exhaust manifold is hot or not, how free flowing your exhaust is, etc. From what I've seen and personally experienced, a small 16G (TD05H-16G 7cm^2) on an EJ205 and TMIC, with a stock 5spd transmission in 3rd gear should see full boost (~20psi) by 3500 RPM +/- 100 depending on other factors.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:57 AM   #1553
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Looking into a Blouch TD04-19 rebuild. I can't find anything on their website about rebuilding services. Do they offer a core exchange program?
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:42 PM   #1554
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Hey Mattyg,
No core exchange...you have to send in a TD04....then they rebuild as needed and upgrade it. They don't keep any in stock/on the shelves if that's what you mean.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:46 PM   #1555
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Can you point me towards a website where it talks about these services? I haven't been able to find it. Makes me think they don't do it anymore.
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:36 PM   #1556
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Call/e-mail them.

ph: 717-865-3276
e: sales@blouchturbo.com
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:25 PM   #1557
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Yeah, what Cliff says....call them, but email doesn't get their attention so just call them, ask for Mike They just did mine last week.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:34 AM   #1558
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I plan on going the blouch route as well, but mainly after I get the suspension where I want it for mild track use. What good is the 'goon for power if I can't even control it on a roadcourse?!
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:13 AM   #1559
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this is def a great upgrade from a td04... but it just seems for the price of admission, its more practical to just throw a few extra bucks on top and get a VFxx or 16g. if read through this thread and cant remember, are there (m)any results of this turbo w/ a 2.5 liter?
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:03 AM   #1560
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I plan on going the blouch route as well, but mainly after I get the suspension where I want it for mild track use. What good is the 'goon for power if I can't even control it on a roadcourse?!
In all honesty, the 19T isn't a great track day turbo. It falls off up top just like the stock 13T. To get a lot of power out of it you do have to push it pretty hard. Turning laps at the track I'd be worried about intake temps and detonation with a smaller turbo like this. If you don't mind the slight delay in boost response a small 16G is going to be a better option. You don't have to push it as hard to make the same or more power, and it will pull all the way to redline (good for track use as you spend more time at high rpm than low rpm).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxtremeWGN View Post
this is def a great upgrade from a td04... but it just seems for the price of admission, its more practical to just throw a few extra bucks on top and get a VFxx or 16g. if read through this thread and cant remember, are there (m)any results of this turbo w/ a 2.5 liter?
Its only practical to use a VF or 16G if you don't mind the delay in boost response. Those who like snappy response will like the 19T. Those who want more peak power and high rpm power band will have to sacrifice response for better performance.

There are no results for a 19T on a 2.5L because its an absolute waste. The stock 13T on a 2.5L is a complete waste. Several (possibly many) pages back I posted some pics of the engine demand plots over the compressor maps. The demand from a 2.5L engine is off the compressor map (horrible efficiency) at just about anything over 5000rpm.
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:50 PM   #1561
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Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
In all honesty, the 19T isn't a great track day turbo. It falls off up top just like the stock 13T. To get a lot of power out of it you do have to push it pretty hard. Turning laps at the track I'd be worried about intake temps and detonation with a smaller turbo like this. If you don't mind the slight delay in boost response a small 16G is going to be a better option. You don't have to push it as hard to make the same or more power, and it will pull all the way to redline (good for track use as you spend more time at high rpm than low rpm).


Its only practical to use a VF or 16G if you don't mind the delay in boost response. Those who like snappy response will like the 19T. Those who want more peak power and high rpm power band will have to sacrifice response for better performance.

There are no results for a 19T on a 2.5L because its an absolute waste. The stock 13T on a 2.5L is a complete waste. Several (possibly many) pages back I posted some pics of the engine demand plots over the compressor maps. The demand from a 2.5L engine is off the compressor map (horrible efficiency) at just about anything over 5000rpm.
Good to know, thanks. I have test driven a wagon with a Blouch 19T and it was very quick, but I did notice that top end was a bit more linear than I was expecting.

I'll need to get back to the drawing board to determine which turbo would best suit my application. Don't want anything I need to worry about a transmission with, and don't want anything like the 30r powered car I used to own.

I'm thinking along the lines of a T28, maybe. Hell, I'm assuming the T25 I've got laying around would be better than the tiny turbo I've got now. Time to research.
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:51 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
In all honesty, the 19T isn't a great track day turbo. It falls off up top just like the stock 13T. To get a lot of power out of it you do have to push it pretty hard. Turning laps at the track I'd be worried about intake temps and detonation with a smaller turbo like this. If you don't mind the slight delay in boost response a small 16G is going to be a better option. You don't have to push it as hard to make the same or more power, and it will pull all the way to redline (good for track use as you spend more time at high rpm than low rpm).


Its only practical to use a VF or 16G if you don't mind the delay in boost response. Those who like snappy response will like the 19T. Those who want more peak power and high rpm power band will have to sacrifice response for better performance.

There are no results for a 19T on a 2.5L because its an absolute waste. The stock 13T on a 2.5L is a complete waste. Several (possibly many) pages back I posted some pics of the engine demand plots over the compressor maps. The demand from a 2.5L engine is off the compressor map (horrible efficiency) at just about anything over 5000rpm.
Well said. This post needs to be in a 19t FAQ.
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:41 PM   #1563
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So this has been touched on but never fulliy explained:
Small turbine with big compressor etc. stock WRX TD04 hot side with 20G compressor . just an exageration!
Now i know that the compressor doesn't fit . I am refering to the concept .

My question was sparked by a post saying that with a 19t you have to clip the turbine wheel . Is this because there is too much torque on the shaft between the wheels ?
what would the pros and cons be of a huge mismatch like that?

sorry for a slight thread jack if the reply is too off topic can someone pm me i am just thirsting for a little knowlage and my searches haven't dug up anything i have even google this.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:25 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by DamnThatRevLimiter View Post
So this has been touched on but never fulliy explained:
Small turbine with big compressor etc. stock WRX TD04 hot side with 20G compressor . just an exageration!
Now i know that the compressor doesn't fit . I am refering to the concept .

My question was sparked by a post saying that with a 19t you have to clip the turbine wheel . Is this because there is too much torque on the shaft between the wheels ?
what would the pros and cons be of a huge mismatch like that?

sorry for a slight thread jack if the reply is too off topic can someone pm me i am just thirsting for a little knowlage and my searches haven't dug up anything i have even google this.
They clip the turbine wheel to allow for more total discharge through the turbine as a whole. They are trying to minimize the losses encountered from the mismatch.

When you clip a turbine wheel, you remove some of the surface area on the turbine wheel upon which work can be done by the exhaust gas. This work is what drives, or spins, the wheel/shaft etc. This theoretically will hurt your low end ever so slightly because you loose out on an opportunity to extract energy from the exhaust gas.

If you looked at the back of the turbo you could see that most of the cross sectional area of the turbine opening is taken up by the turbine wheel. Then there is the small gap between the wheel and the housing. The air passing through that gap does no work on the turbine wheel since it cannot come into contact with it. Increasing this area (by clipping) means you can increase the discharge through the turbine without doing more work on the turbine wheel. This is beneficial when your moving a lot of air at higher RPM's.

I still have trouble understanding why a larger wastegate would not be better than clipping. I'm no expert in thermodynamics and the physics of turbo's, but it would seem that a larger wastegate could divert the necessary exhaust gas just as well as clipping the turbine wheel. Someone more knowledgeable than myself will have to provide input on why that's not the better option.

I mentioned this briefly when talking to Mike at Blouch a year or two ago, and he didn't seem very open to the idea and told me he wouldn't be able to warranty the unit without clipping.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:35 PM   #1565
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19T + chipped turbine wheel= nice
19T+ H turbine wheel =Yahoo
My1c
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:01 PM   #1566
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^^based off xsnapshot's post the "H" wheel would seem better than clipping.

that is a good point about an EWG , I wonder if that woul work?
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:34 PM   #1567
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^^based off xsnapshot's post the "H" wheel would seem better than clipping.

that is a good point about an EWG , I wonder if that woul work?
It depends on how you define "better". My experience with the H wheel yielded identical spool up results as the small 16G I currently have. And spool up is not as quick as what others are getting with just the clipped TD04L wheel.

The thing about clipping is that since your reducing the area on which work can be done, the area thats left will require more work/unit area than previously to achieve the same rotational speed.

What does this mean? Well turbines operate based on a pressure differential. If there is x psi on one side of the turbine, and y psi on the other, then you have a differential of x-y from which you can extract energy. A force applied to the blades occurs from the pressure of the gas/area the gas is acting on. When you reduce area, you can see that you now need an increase in pressure to achieve the same force.

This means that clipping your turbine wheel will actually require a larger x-y pressure differential than before to achieve the same rotational speed. Since y is probably going to remain the same as before (or worse if you plan on making more power), then x must go up. And when x goes up, your volumetric efficiency goes down, as it is getting harder and harder for the motor to expel the exhaust gas.

Keep in mind this is all based on physics and might not be significant. Do these things happen in the real world? Yes. Does it make a huge difference? Likely not. Clearly you can make more power with this clipped 19T than with a 13T. However you are making this power at a lower Volumetric efficiency than with, say, a VFXX or a 16G.

For many this trade off is worth the overall gain and cheap-ish price. To those living in significantly higher elevations, the ability to efficiently pump air at much higher pressure levels than before, while maintaining a reasonable boost threshold, will be worth it as well.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:29 AM   #1568
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^^based off xsnapshot's post the "H" wheel would seem better than clipping.

that is a good point about an EWG , I wonder if that woul work?
There is a lot of theory, but there are a lot of variables. I believe knuts added an EWG to his 19T. You'll have to look back several pages for his results, though I'm not sure they were ever posted. You might have to PM him and ask. IIRC, the added performance from the EWG wasn't all that significant.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:33 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by Scooby921

There is a lot of theory, but there are a lot of variables. I believe knuts added an EWG to his 19T. You'll have to look back several pages for his results, though I'm not sure they were ever posted. You might have to PM him and ask. IIRC, the added performance from the EWG wasn't all that significant.
Correct. I believe we concluded that the backpressure requirement was so great, that the wastegate was hardly diverting much at all. Especially up top. So not much of a difference could really be seen as an end result.

I really wish an engineer from blouch would come on here and explain this hybrid turbo. Maybe throw a little theory our way. A pipe dream probably....
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:10 PM   #1570
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Default I really wish an engineer from blouch would come on here and explain this

Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
Correct. I believe we concluded that the backpressure requirement was so great, that the wastegate was hardly diverting much at all. Especially up top. So not much of a difference could really be seen as an end result.

I really wish an engineer from blouch would come on here and explain this hybrid turbo. Maybe throw a little theory our way. A pipe dream probably....
^^^ That would be way cool! I will try pm'ing Knuts .

If the external didn't bleed off enough pressure, then is it possable to run an internal and external to augment the extra gas out of the housing.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:07 PM   #1571
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I don't know that I'd ever want to run an internal and external gate simultaneously. That just begs issues, IMO. Twin externals would be okay if you had a twin scroll setup, but otherwise, just match the wastegate to your desire.

Big turbo/low boost = big gate (think 44mm plus)
Big turbo/big boost = small gate (38mm)
small turbo/low boost = small gate (38mm also fine here)
small turbo/big boost = small gate (again, 38mm)
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:29 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by DamnThatRevLimiter

^^^ That would be way cool! I will try pm'ing Knuts .

If the external didn't bleed off enough pressure, then is it possable to run an internal and external to augment the extra gas out of the housing.
I wouldn't do that. A single 38mm external gate will handle all the flow you will need.

The issue is not the ability to remove enough exhaust gas volume. When knuts ran his turbo, he was targeting very high pressure ratios and the wastegate did not need to relieve much extra pressure. The backpressure requirements to spin the turbine/compressor that fast resulted in the majority of the gas being required to flow through the turbine.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:14 PM   #1573
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I wouldn't do that. A single 38mm external gate will handle all the flow you will need.

The issue is not the ability to remove enough exhaust gas volume. When knuts ran his turbo, he was targeting very high pressure ratios and the wastegate did not need to relieve much extra pressure. The backpressure requirements to spin the turbine/compressor that fast resulted in the majority of the gas being required to flow through the turbine.
oooh ok, i just hate the thought of clipping the exhaust wheel because honestly if a usdm 2002 TD04 turbine side was connected to a 16g wheel or 19T and got 290whp before 4000-5000 rpm that would be sick . I don't like what i see when the dyno graphs show such a dropp twords redline, but i guess you could always shift up.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:50 PM   #1574
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I can't even begin to digest all of the post in the thread however I wanted to post some photos for a size comparison on the wheels. Scooby921 mentioned that the small 16G is a much better all around turbo. I second that opinion. Even with a wheel clip the converted 19T just does not have it. The 6 cm hot side is limiting without going EWG.

From left to right: small 16g, 19T, 18T. Sorry I did not have a 13T wheel onhand for the comparison! BTW the 19T compressor is trashed. It came out of a conversion which the thrust bearing was killed. This tore up both the turbine and compressor. Premature wear of the thrust bearing is an issue with the conversions if it is not fitted with an upgraded thrust assembly.



For further reference the 18G and 20G wheels are shown for comparison here



To be blunt clipping wheels is just plain dumb and basically ruins the turbine efficiency and wastes the energy of the gasses going through it. While you get more flow less energy is imparted to the rotating assembly so response suffers. In some cases dramatically. Without an external gate the TD04 is always going to die in the upper rpm because volumetric efficiency is falling off of a cliff due to the small housing.



-soobaviator
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:42 AM   #1575
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Originally Posted by soobaviator View Post
Premature wear of the thrust bearing is an issue with the conversions if it is not fitted with an upgraded thrust assembly.
Ok, I hear you.
The 19T wheel and housing can be bought seperate, but where can you get this 'upgraded thrust bearing' you speak of and what is it exactly?

Thanks in advance,
Walter
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