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Old 10-13-2002, 02:21 AM   #1
garface
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Default Dealer torqued wheels passed 140lbs/ft

Yup, my torque wrench only goes up to 140, but it was still clicking away up there. Is it possible for them to lower the power on the air tools? That can't be good for the rotors or anything else. Also wondering, would having my CV boots replaced affect the alignment at all and should they then align the wheels for free since it was warranty work?
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Old 10-13-2002, 02:50 AM   #2
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If they disconnected the a arms to get the axle out then yes, you need an alignment. And yes alignment is part of the job. So if it was warranty work then it needs to be included.
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Old 10-13-2002, 07:41 AM   #3
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Once I had to jump and kick my lug nut wrench. What are they thinking? It is known as one of the simplest ways to warp your rotors . . .
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Old 10-13-2002, 08:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Dealer torqued wheels passed 140lbs/ft

Quote:
Originally posted by garface
Yup, my torque wrench only goes up to 140, but it was still clicking away up there.
Why were you trying to remove your lugs with a torque wrench? Use the torque wrench to put them on, not take them off. Besides, torque wrenches don't work that way: just because it's reading 140 foot-pounds on the dial, and it clicks when you're trying to take your lugs off, it doesn't mean that they were put on with over 140 foot-pounds. Probably not even close, so the problem isn't as bad as you think it is. 140 is over twice what they should be put on with.
Question: How do you put your lugs on? You've got the wrench, which is good, but are you using it correctly?

Last edited by Bottom Feeder; 10-13-2002 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 10-13-2002, 08:41 AM   #5
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I have to assume he means that he tryed to take them of conventionally, noticed they were REALY tight & came back with a clicking style torque wrench & checked them by tightening them a little more...
or
he has a needle style wrench that shows the up & down so he could see them before they broke loose...

Impact torque sockets were made by the ... & they probibly have some & the nitwit who trusts them...
They are the 8" color coded sockets with angled lines on them... when the lines bend straight it is "torqued" or the guy has a lack of a concept of reality.
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Old 10-13-2002, 10:07 AM   #6
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I don't use the torque wrench to take them off. I know for a fact that dealers and shops usually overtighten the lugs by a fair amount using air tools, so as soon as I got home I broke out the tq wrench and kept raising it to see at what point I could actually tighten them and find out generally how much they went over the 65-75lbs/ft that I torque them too. I got it to it's max level and still could not tighten them, I had to jump repeatedly on 4 of the 5 to get them loose. So your saying that I can't determine how tight they were by doing that?
As far as how I tighten my lugs normally. I put the wheel on while it is still in the air and hand tighten each nut, lower the car, then either use the regular wrench to tighten them slightly before using the tq. wrench, or just use the tq. wrench to begin with.
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Old 10-13-2002, 10:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by T-WRX
Once I had to jump and kick my lug nut wrench. What are they thinking? It is known as one of the simplest ways to warp your rotors . . .
...
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
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Old 10-13-2002, 11:07 AM   #8
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It's a conspiracy between all dealers, tire and repair shops on one hand; and tow truck drivers, AAA or whatever car club on the other. With the supplied tiny lug wrench that comes with the car, there's no possible way for most people to change their own flats.

Fortunately, Subaru supplies roadside assistance for new cars...

-Ray
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Old 10-13-2002, 11:13 AM   #9
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My dealer has a gizmo that goes on the business end of thier air driver that automatically limits the torque. They demonstrated it to me ... pretty neat & pretty fast.
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Old 10-13-2002, 11:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by garface
...so as soon as I got home I broke out the tq wrench and kept raising it to see at what point I could actually tighten them and find out generally how much they went over the 65-75lbs/ft that I torque them too. I got it to it's max level and still could not tighten them, I had to jump repeatedly on 4 of the 5 to get them loose. So your saying that I can't determine how tight they were by doing that?
Nope. Are you saying that you keep cranking up the dial on your wrench to see at what point the lug actually moves compared to when it clicks? Torque wrenches don't work like that.
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Old 10-13-2002, 12:21 PM   #11
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bottomfeeder, why not? If I tightened my lugs to 75lbs/ft and then set my wrench to 20lbs/ft it would click right? Then set it to 30, 40, 50, etc. It would keep clicking until I set it to something over 75lbs/ft and then would tighten the lug further until it reached that value. I don't see why you say it doesn't work that way.
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Old 10-13-2002, 12:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: Re: Dealer torqued wheels passed 140lbs/ft

Quote:
Originally posted by Bottom Feeder
...just because it's reading 140 foot-pounds on the dial, and it clicks when you're trying to take your lugs off, it doesn't mean that they were put on with over 140 foot-pounds. Probably not even close, so the problem isn't as bad as you think it is
Not true. Torque to release on an aluminum wheel is usually about 1.1x the installed torque. That extra 0.1 is due to the static friction between the chamfered nut face and the loading on the threads. Threads should always be lubed with something like anti-sieze to minimize this effect and allow proper torque levels to be met.

-Pete
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Old 10-13-2002, 12:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Re: Re: Dealer torqued wheels passed 140lbs/ft

Quote:
Originally posted by Chunky_Chicken
Not true. Torque to release on an aluminum wheel is usually about 1.1x the installed torque. That extra 0.1 is due to the static friction between the chamfered nut face and the loading on the threads. Threads should always be lubed with something like anti-sieze to minimize this effect and allow proper torque levels to be met.

-Pete
I think you're misunderstanding the point I'm trying to make.
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Old 10-13-2002, 01:00 PM   #14
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I wonder if dealer incompetence can invalidate a warranty? After all torque >140lbs is going some, plus its a good way not just to lead to snapped bolts, but also to cracked wheels.
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Old 10-13-2002, 01:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by garface
bottomfeeder, why not? If I tightened my lugs to 75lbs/ft and then set my wrench to 20lbs/ft it would click right? Then set it to 30, 40, 50, etc. It would keep clicking until I set it to something over 75lbs/ft and then would tighten the lug further until it reached that value. I don't see why you say it doesn't work that way.
I'm trying to think of some way to explain what I'm talking about, and I'm having a hard time doing so. This example may help, or I might just make things a little more muddy-
What's easier for one guy to push: a 2500 pound car from a dead stop, or a 4000 pound car that's already rolling? I don't know if you follow what I'm getting at, but the 4000 pound car is the right answer.
Getting the correct torque values on a lugnut require a smooth, firm application of force for at least a few degrees of motion, say maybe 45 degrees. If the lugs are already on there, that eliminates any of the motion you need to get an accurate measurement of how much torqure was applied to put them on, and that completely screws up any logic you may be using to come to your conclusion. Can you see where I'm coming from with this?
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Old 10-13-2002, 01:04 PM   #16
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Bottom Feeder is saying that you need to overcome friction to initiate movement.
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Old 10-13-2002, 01:12 PM   #17
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Isn't that what I said?
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Old 10-13-2002, 01:17 PM   #18
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Yeah, but I was more succinct.
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Old 10-13-2002, 05:52 PM   #19
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Default jmott/Stoptech myths

Quote:
Originally posted by jmott


...
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
Very interesting. I wonder if overtightening the lugs could lead to uneven deposits of pad material?

I'm not married to the idea of lug tightening = pedal vibration --> but there must be some reason why we have heard this theory for so many years. . .
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Old 10-13-2002, 06:37 PM   #20
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hmm they shouldn't have had to remove the a-arm to change the axle/ cv
only the upper strut mount bolt (the eccentric one)


allthough your camber would be messed up so yeah i guess it does need an alignment
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Old 10-14-2002, 04:13 AM   #21
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maybe you should get the EZ-lug
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Old 10-14-2002, 01:58 PM   #22
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Yet another example to remind us that air tools are for disassembly and torque wrenches are for reassembly. Of course there are some exceptions.

Sincerely,
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Old 10-14-2002, 05:04 PM   #23
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My favorite tire shop uses low value torque sticks on the wrench (rated at 55ft lbs I was told) then does a final tighten with a torque wrench.

Now I see many chains doing the same thing. Maybe you need to look for another shop?
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Old 10-14-2002, 10:30 PM   #24
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I don't agree completely with Stop Tech. While they say it may not directly affect warpage, having excessive tightening torque may stretch lug nuts/bolts or create other issues.

I understand BF's argument about friction numbers, but GF's method does tell him that torque is way overboard. It would be better to twist in the loosening direction though.

Impact wrenches are always set too high to get the nuts off faster, but then they don't readjust to tighten. Always loosen and retighten them EVENLY yourself unless they used a torque stick. FWIW, they usually use the torque wrench wrong also, notice it does diddly squat if the wrench clicks immediately when pressured and they swing it through a 60*+ arc after clicking after using aformentioned high impact wrench.

Gary
changes enough times weekly to know what's up
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Old 10-15-2002, 01:21 AM   #25
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Thoughts...
While bottomfeeder is correct re the initial friction issue, it ain't gonna be the answer if garface can't tighten the lug nuts @ the 140 ft/lb setting!

The scariest problem that could result from this is stud fracture, if the studs were stretched past their design/material limits by >2x the recommended torque! (Owner's manual: 65 ft/lbs...which sounds low, but that's what it says.)

Given the stresses to which many WRXs get pushed I'd think about making the dealer replace all the wheel studs. At the very least make them note it in your service log. Then at least your heirs will have grounds to sue them...

I recently had a couple of new tires mounted at a very accomodating tire store (Tire Rack local installer). The tech was surprised to hear the 65 ft/lb spec, but went and selected a (presumably) appropriate torque stick. However, when I got home and checked them they were way too tight! Probably at least 90 ft/lbs...

Here's what I do when remouting my wheels:
1 - Hand start all the lug nuts
2 - Spin them down to just barely seat with the impact wrench - which I set to a setting that won't approach the final torque unless I just sit there and hammer on it for awhile
3 - Tighten the lugs, in pattern, "snugly" with the impact wrench in this low setting, primarily because it's soooo much easier than wedging the tire in place (fronts) in order to do the same job manually
4 - With parking brake on (rear), or wheel lowered on the jack just until it solidly contacts the ground - but isn't anwhere near fully weighted - finish tightening with the torque wrench, making 2 passes around the pattern, the first pass to manually "even up" the lugs at a moderate setting, then the final tightening pass

If I overtorque at any time, i.e. the wrench clicks before I thnk I should be at that stage, or clicks w/o moving the nut, then I back off the nut ~30 degrees and keep on with the pattern. In other words, (ref bottomfeeder) I never consider it correctly set unless I've turned the nut before the wrench clicked at the proper setting. (Obviously doesn't apply if I'm simply rechecking the lug nuts after I've done the mounting.)

Another note re lubing the threads: this can be a bad idea. If the torque spec was developed using lubed threads, then this is absolutely proper. But many torque specs are developed on dry, clean, threads. (Including, I have read, most lug nut specs.) If you lube the threads and use a dry torque spec you risk overtorquing the stud/bolt, possibly significantly (read: overstretched, stress cracked, or even broken).

This sounds like a good email query to Subaru...
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