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Old 10-28-2008, 08:23 AM   #1
bereda
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Default are hub rings necessarie

when getting new wheels are they necessary...
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:14 AM   #2
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It depends
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:08 PM   #3
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They are not mandatory, but they're certainly a very good idea. The centering effect of the lugnuts should put the wheel in the proper position, but it's good to have the hubcentric fit that a proper hubcentric ring adapter will give you.

I lost one and ran without it for a couple/few years without any abnormal vibrations or any other issues.

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Old 10-28-2008, 04:36 PM   #4
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I'll second what Pat said. Not required if you use care when putting your wheels on.

I've never had rings on my Works, and they've never come loose or vibrated.
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Old 10-28-2008, 04:49 PM   #5
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Just make sure you tighten the lugs in a criss cross pattern.

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Old 10-29-2008, 04:01 PM   #6
Pete Holt
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They are extremely important if you do track days at all. Without them the wheel will slide on the hub and you will ruin your axle studs. At that point you will want metal hub centric rings. Even on the street I would use them to take additional stress off the wheel studs.
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Holt View Post
They are extremely important if you do track days at all. Without them the wheel will slide on the hub and you will ruin your axle studs. At that point you will want metal hub centric rings. Even on the street I would use them to take additional stress off the wheel studs.
Dead wrong. The hubcentric rings are an assembly aide. They do not carry the load.

If the lug nuts loosen up enough for the wheels to shift the wheel studs are at great risk of breaking. They do not like the stress reversals. It is the clamping load of the wheel to the hub that keeps things in place.

As said, if you are careful, you don't need the rings. I do use them when they are available. It is easer.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:18 PM   #8
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Then why did I have to replace 3 wheel studs after the first time I forgot to use the hub centric rings at a track day?
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:34 PM   #9
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If the lug nuts are not tight they will break due to fatigue. It is easer to get things seated with the pilot.

I used to work in the industry. Here is a little link:

http://www.conmet.com/html/hub_faq.html#1

#1 is how the hub pilot (concentric ring) does not carry the load.

#20 is why wheel studs break. (Ignore the torque spec. It's for Heavy Truck.)
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:41 AM   #10
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With 450-500ft/lb torque specs, I am not surprised that the pilot boss is not supposed to take any of the load. However, I have used the same torque spec for three years worth of track days and that was not the issue. The only variable was the hub centric rings that I forgot. After I put them back in, I never had an issue.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #11
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Take a look at all the of cars that are not hubcentric. They generally don't have problems. As said, you have to seat the wheel more carefully without the aide.

How did your lug nuts back off without a centering aide?

Think of it from this angle. The ring has to have a few thou clearance on the OD to slide into the wheel. I've never seen an interference fit. The ring, or hubcentric wheel has to have a few thou clearance on the hub to side on freely. You sure as heck don't want an interference fit. Just like that link I attached above saying it's just a pilot.

For that ring to carry the load the wheel relative to the hub would have to shift radially two, or more thou twice per revolution. For that to happen the bolted joint has to be loose. i.e. the lug nuts backed off.

Once a well designed bolted joint is loose it does not last long under fatigue loading.


Here is a little story that similar you tale:

Back in the early '80 I had new tyres put on my Audi 4000. I Saw the guy use a torque wrench to tighten the lung bolts. ~300 miles later I changed lanes and heard a clunk. I shifted back and it was there again, so I pulled over. TWO of 4 lug bolts were missing and the remanding 2 were loose.

Now how the heck did they get loose? I saw the guy use a torque wrench...
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:29 PM   #12
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So you think my wheels were not centered correctly and that is what caused the problem. If that is the case, then the hub centric ring would be even more important to make sure that they are centered.

In the world of large trucks that have twice as many wheel studs that are torqued down to 450-500ft/lbs they probably don't have any weight on the pilot boss for that reason as well as the obvious fact that they do not see cornering loads anywhere near what my car does with slicks.

The cornering loads in my car on a track were enough to slide the wheel across the hub and cause damage to the wheel studs without the hub centric ring. This was even a problem with higher than normal torque ratings on the lug nuts. However, the problem went away simply by re-installing the hub centric rings. So obviously with enough cornering force the hub centric rings do bear a load.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:49 PM   #13
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More likely you lug nuts were not seated quite right. Everything torqued up fine, but after a little bit of flexing everything loosened up, but this dumb engineer who happened to spend 8 years working in the wheel end business isn't gong to convince you.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:04 PM   #14
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Web foot, this was an issue I had for multiple track days as we figured the same as you that the hub centric rings did not make a difference. There were a number of days where I went through wheel studs. As soon as I put the rings back in I did not have problems with the wheel studs again. Gary Sheehan was the one who recommended the rings. Did you do engineering for any race parts or was it mainly big trucks?
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:06 PM   #15
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Engineering and testing for trucks.

Edit:

I still can't help but think that if you are getting enough flex that the hubcentric ring is bearing a part of the load that your wheel studs are not long for this world.

Do your track wheels have a steel insert for the lug nuts?

Last edited by Web Foot STi; 10-30-2008 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:39 PM   #16
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Some very good info here from a guy who's got tons of open tracking experience and engineering experience. The whole thread is good reading (there's tons of good tech on corner-carvers.com for those that are into open tracking).

I still think my initial answer is correct - there are cars that have lugcentric wheels from the factory, and OEMs wouldn't do that if it was a recipe for wheel stud failures. But when you start talking track abuse you're entering a whole nuthah level of forces acting on the wheel/hub/stud interface.

Last edited by Patrick Olsen; 10-30-2008 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:54 PM   #17
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I have been doing HPDEs for 8 years, All of the years w/o the rings and no failure of any sort. Just be sure to Tq the wheels when they are cold and in the right pattern.
Two sets of wheels...
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:17 PM   #18
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Regardless of HOW hubcentric rings prevent the problem of breaking studs, they still prevent breakage (some rings I have used are a slight interference fit in the wheel bore and over the hub). They are cheap, easy to find and simple to use.

There's no reason not to have them, especially on track vehicle.

Gary
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www.garysheehan.com
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:59 PM   #19
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I still would like to know How. Another dumb engineer question. Don't doubt that they are working in the real world at the track. How long hurts my sole. On the street is another question.

Thanks for the link Pat. After a long read through there was a nasty bit with an SKF guy. My point, but I yield to Pete, and Garry.
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