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Old 09-26-2011, 09:48 PM   #276
DannyW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post

Try Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish as well as the less useful How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartmann. Both discuss LBT/MBT/RBT. Banish does it more in terms of the theory of why you should do it that way, Hartman does it more from the perspective of finding the actual value for that car on the
Hmm. I have this book, page 53 says 11.7 is a good target AFR for forced induction systems.. The point being that it is safer since the intake charge is heated.
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Old 09-26-2011, 09:54 PM   #277
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Hmm. I have this book, page 53 says 11.7 is a good target AFR for forced induction systems.. The point being that it is safer since the intake charge is heated.
Thats a generic AFR. Motor design does come into play as well as alot of other things.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:39 PM   #278
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Thats a generic AFR. Motor design does come into play as well as alot of other things.
Yes of course you are right that AFR=f(RPM, load) so these numbers must be put in context. In this case I don't think 11.7 is out of line for full boost WOT cells in a street car.

In this case I was responding to a quote in response to another quote that "quoted" generic AFRs. I was simply pointing out that the authors generic AFR agrees with the original post on page 2. :-)
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:22 PM   #279
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Other subie specific tuning guides recommend 11.5 for the 2.5L and 11.0 for the 2.0L.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:07 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyW

Yes of course you are right that AFR=f(RPM, load) so these numbers must be put in context. In this case I don't think 11.7 is out of line for full boost WOT cells in a street car.

In this case I was responding to a quote in response to another quote that "quoted" generic AFRs. I was simply pointing out that the authors generic AFR agrees with the original post on page 2. :-)
FMIC or TMIC makes a big difference too. I would say if TMIC go a little richer. More like 10.7-11:1. If FMIC you can run a little leaner, due to the FMIC not being heat soaked all the time from the turbo and all the heat from the engine bay.
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:56 AM   #281
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Other subie specific tuning guides recommend 11.5 for the 2.5L and 11.0 for the 2.0L.
Can you post links? I'd like to read more on this. I've seen Cobb and other tuners post dyno graphs with 11.5 AFRs and started wondering why. (Obviously leaner is better to a point) but is it still "safe" meaning conservative. They probably run less timing but I'd like to know how they came up with 11.5. WHy not 11.3? Trial and error? Or some other theory we don't know about?
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:14 AM   #282
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Can you post links? I'd like to read more on this. I've seen Cobb and other tuners post dyno graphs with 11.5 AFRs and started wondering why. (Obviously leaner is better to a point) but is it still "safe" meaning conservative. They probably run less timing but I'd like to know how they came up with 11.5. WHy not 11.3? Trial and error? Or some other theory we don't know about?

On the race cars (wrx's 2.0l engines) we were running between 11.7 and 11.3.
As long as the tune is good, 11.5 or so will be safe.

You will see tunes that are 11.5 or whatnot, as further into the 12's it will develop more power, however its more prone to knocking. The general consensus with turbo engines is that 11.3 is a good compromise between richness and power.
Going into 10's is just to rich and there isnt much point.

But each car will be different and it may perform better on 11.5 or 11.3, But all in all the difference between those 2 is fairly minimal.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:53 AM   #283
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^ Thanks for the info. Good stuff.
It sounds like it's a matter of how much headroom you want to leave for bad gas/adverse conditions. Personally on my 2.5L DD, I run 11.1 with a fmic. I could go leaner, but when I like having a large "buffer zone" Like when my car is full of co workers want to go for a pull or when I travel upstate and can only find 91 instead of 93 or any of that kinda stuff.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:49 AM   #284
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Since we're talking about AFR's...

Why would a specific car seem to "like" running richer than leaner? My car has shown that it prefers to run in the 10.7 ish range at peak load/WOT. This was first found out on the dyno a couple of years ago working with a tuner. We were tweaking the tune after getting the boost and timing right. As we started to lean it out some, we noticed that there was no gain in wtq or whp as we moved the AFR's into the 11.0 range.

I'm currently running about 14 deg. at WOT/Peak load.

16g, UP, DP, STi IC, injectors, walbro, GS BCS etc..etc

Last edited by Brock31; 09-28-2011 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:25 AM   #285
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^ usually you tune, boost, fuel, then timing... might be because you tuned timing before fuel
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:12 AM   #286
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^ usually you tune, boost, fuel, then timing... might be because you tuned timing before fuel
I guess that begs the question as to what nets the most power gain Fuel or timing? Obviously boost will play a major role in all this, but just for discussion sake consider only those two parameters.

I could run more timing with more fuel or less timing with less fuel.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:57 AM   #287
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I guess that begs the question as to what nets the most power gain Fuel or timing? Obviously boost will play a major role in all this, but just for discussion sake consider only those two parameters.

I could run more timing with more fuel or less timing with less fuel.
Thats strange about on the dyno.

Did you get more power when it was running that rich?

Could it have been an o2 sensor difference? (i.e. reading richer)
So if you have it around 11.3 do you get knock with more timing? (timing is a bitch to tune open source cause of the whole no on the fly changing stuff )

Most power gain will generally be through having the right afr, timing will get you more if you change to e85 or similar :P
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:25 AM   #288
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The only issue I have with this guide is the directions on how to build/modify a WGDC table. Now I'm an 07 and I'm stage 2, I started with a WGDC table that was made for a gutted down pipe and I have a full cat less 3" setup on there so obviously the table is a bit aggressive for me.

Now when I look at how to build one, I cant make sense of which WGDC table I'm supposed to be working with, the Initial or the Max table. It also tells me to log Turbo Dynamics Integral Cumulative and Immediate, I don't have either one of those to log, and it doesn't specify which one is equal to Turbo Dynamics Integral or Proportional, those are the only turbo dynamics parameters I have to log.

Without knowing which one is equal to which, I can't make sense of what I'm looking at in the log, and I can't use the formula posted for the max WGDC table. I also don't know when to apply that formula and what tables to change after doing some pulls and having data in hand.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:34 AM   #289
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The max table is just as it sounds. It is the maximum amount of wastegate duty cycle the ECU is allowed to use to control boost with including compensations and turbo dynamics. If your using Romraider you can open a table and on the far right of the tool bar is "view". Click that and it gives you a brief description of what that particular map/table does. The Turbo Dynamics tables have changed names a couple of times and depending on 16bit ECU or 32bit ECU have slightly different names.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1749675
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:47 AM   #290
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The max table is just as it sounds. It is the maximum amount of wastegate duty cycle the ECU is allowed to use to control boost with including compensations and turbo dynamics. If your using Romraider you can open a table and on the far right of the tool bar is "view". Click that and it gives you a brief description of what that particular map/table does. The Turbo Dynamics tables have changed names a couple of times and depending on 16bit ECU or 32bit ECU have slightly different names.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1749675
I understand what Max WGDC meant, but my confusion was on the terms of Turbo Dynamics Integral Cumulative and Immediate, The only link I can see with that right now going by what you posted and reading the table description is

Turbo Dynamics Proportinal is = to Turbo Dynamics Immediate
and
Turbo Dynamics Integral is = to Turbo Dynamics Integral Cumulative

So I'm still confused on which table I should be modifying when I'm doing my pulls and seeing how much correction there is.

From what I've been seeing in my logs and pulls is my Initial table is too high and it almost apears that my TD is not controlling the boost or cant because of that being too high.

Can TD not control the boost if the initial table is too high?
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:26 PM   #291
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First, to achieve target boost, you should modify your initial WGDC tables as well as your max WGDC tables making sure that the difference between the two is just slightly larger than the TD being applied. This is so you don't hit the max WGDC values.

If you changed your boost controller and need to modify your TD tables, you modify the table that's dominant. TD immediate will be dominant at spool and will transition to TD integral later on in the pull. Watch the values. You'll see TD immediate ramp up, then TD Integral will start increasing and TD immediate will start lowering.
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:01 PM   #292
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Ok that's helping, now since I have a stock boost controller should my TD tables be stock? They were modified in the map I started with and I was starting to wonder if that is causing some of my spike issues.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:48 PM   #293
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Ok that's helping, now since I have a stock boost controller should my TD tables be stock? They were modified in the map I started with and I was starting to wonder if that is causing some of my spike issues.
Yes, they should be stock. Aftermarket 3 port solenoids are much different from stock 2 port bleeder systems. Go back and ready cobb's explanation of the boost control system.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:00 PM   #294
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I understand how it works I just wanted to double check that the change done to that map shouldn't have been done for my application and would be causing my issues.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:39 PM   #295
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Ok, I'm still having a bit of trouble controlling this... Now I have a full 3" catless setup and my target boost is under 17 PSI, I'm hitting 18.84 at times and my initial WGDC table is 31% at that RPM/Requested TQ area, and my scan is reading 41.57% Primary Wastegate Duty and thats with a TD Integral of 14.59 and TD Proportional of -1.96.

Whats going on here? I'm just a bit confused that my WGDC tables need to be so low to not overboost, its making no sense to me. I've reset the TD tables to stock and no where in them does it state 15 for Integral correction so I don't know why its going that high.

I've dropped my WGDC tables by 20% in that are from the original Stage 2 levels MickeyD had in his map, that was for a catted mid section though with only a gutted down pipe.

Does this sound right? and I just need to keep dropping the table? Or is something else going on somewhere?

To add some more perspective, my current WGDC tables are lower than stock right now in some areas... by up to 10% if not a bit more

And should I just start from scratch with the WGDC table?

Last edited by AB-737; 10-05-2011 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:48 PM   #296
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It looks like your not hitting your boost targets as you spool causing it TDInt to build up, then when you do get near your boost target of 17 psi, the full TDInt is being applied so TDimmediate comes in with a negative value because you're overshooting.

Try zeroing out you WGDC tables completely and see what a purely mechanical system will yield. If you're overshooting wastegate pressure, you've got a mechanical problem. If not then slowly build up from there and see what happens. It sounds like your have a quick spool and your boost controller can't keep up with the changes. But that's just a guess as you didn't post a log
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:59 PM   #297
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I blanked out the WGDC table once before and I only hit like 11 psi at some points.

I will re-do that again. What do you need me to log while doing this to see whats going on? For boost control i've been logging

engine load
engine speed
manifold relative sea level pressure
primary wastegate duty cycle
target boost
throttle opening angle
TD proportional
TD Integral
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:15 PM   #298
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Ok, I'm still having a bit of trouble controlling this... Now I have a full 3" catless setup and my target boost is under 17 PSI, I'm hitting 18.84 at times and my initial WGDC table is 31% at that RPM/Requested TQ area, and my scan is reading 41.57% Primary Wastegate Duty and thats with a TD Integral of 14.59 and TD Proportional of -1.96.

Whats going on here? I'm just a bit confused that my WGDC tables need to be so low to not overboost, its making no sense to me. I've reset the TD tables to stock and no where in them does it state 15 for Integral correction so I don't know why its going that high.

I've dropped my WGDC tables by 20% in that are from the original Stage 2 levels MickeyD had in his map, that was for a catted mid section though with only a gutted down pipe.

Does this sound right? and I just need to keep dropping the table? Or is something else going on somewhere?

And should I just start from scratch with the WGDC table?
It sounds like you're pretty confused as to the point of the TD corrections.

Let's step back a bit from your issue, or cars in general, and just look at control theory. You have two basic types of controllers, open loop, and closed loop.

An open loop controller will take some inputs, and set some output (be it WGDC, injector DC, throttle position (in the case of cruise control or idle control), etc. An open loop controller WILL NOT look at the result, it simply takes its inputs and sets the output, with no regard for how the system is actually performing.

A closed loop controller does the same thing, but it watches the result as well, and modifies the output until the result matches what it wants. This could be the cruise control system modifying throttle position to hit the target cruise speed, or the fueling system modifying injector DC to hit stoich AFR, or the boost control system modifying WGDC to hit target boost.

When it comes to closed loop controllers, there are various strategies that can be employed. 99% of controllers out there are some combination of a proportional (P) modifier, integral (I) modifier, and derivative (D) modifier.

The proportional modifier is the simplest of the bunch, it simply looks at the error (target-actual), and multiplies that by some constant to adjust the output. In the cruise control example, it might see that the target speed is 70 and the actual speed is 65, so it adds (70-65)*2 = 10% more throttle. I just pulled the "2" out of my ass, but that's the kind of thing a proportional modifier does.

The integral modifier is similar, but rather than taking the instantaneous error, it integrates the error over some time window. In the cruise control example, if you're going 65 and the target is 70, after one second you would have (70-65)*1*0.5 = 2.5% more throttle. After two seconds you would have (70-65)*2*0.5 = 5% more throttle. After three seconds you would have (70-65)*3*0.5 = 7.5% more throttle. And so on, until the integrated error becomes so large that it finally adds enough throttle to hit the target speed.

The integral modifier has a tendency to oscillate, however. You can see in the above example, that your integrated value might reach 20% or more before you finally start accelerating, and it might reach 40% by the time you accelerate to your target speed. The problem is 40% throttle is too much to maintain target speed, so you overshoot it and accelerate to say 75. The integral then has to wind back down, start pulling out more and more throttle, until you overshoot the target speed again in the other direction. For this reason, there's also the derivative modifier. The derivative modifier is proportional to the rate of change of the error. The faster your error is changing, the more the derivative slows things down to keep it under control. In the above example, where the target is 70 and the actual speed is 65, and your integral winds way up to accelerate the car, when you start to approach the target speed, your error is going to be rapidly changing (since it's about to overshoot the target). This is when the derivative would kick in and slow things down, it fights against the integral so-to-speak so that when you cross over the target, you do so slowly, and only by a little bit, so you home in on the target speed much quicker.

Some controllers are just P, some are PID, some are just PI, etc. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. P is very simple, but it has a DC error. In the earlier example, where the target speed is 70 and you're going 65, 10% more throttle might not be enough to hit 70, it might accelerate you to 67. At this point the speed error is only 3 mph, so it drops back a few percent, and only adds 6% over the original value, so you slow back down to 66, etc. In the end, you'll never hit your target speed, you'll always be some amount away. The integral fixes this, it will bring you to zero error, but it's prone to oscillation (under-damped as they call it). The derivative fixes the oscillation of the PI controller, at the expense of even more complexity in the system.

The boost control system in our car uses a PI controller. TD Proportional is the proportional modifier in the PI, TD Integral is the integral modifier in the PI.

Take your example in your post.
Boost target = 17 psi
Actual boost = 18.84 psi
Initial WGDC = 31%
TD Proportional = -1.96
TD Integral = 14.59
Final WGDC = 41.57

Your TD Proportional is slightly negative because you're overboosting, the proportional modifier is trying to bring boost back to target by lowering your WGDC slightly. Your TD Integral is very positive however, the most likely explanation is that for the first few seconds BEFORE this snapshot, you were significantly underboosting, which caused the integral to wind way up to try to bring you to target. Of course, without a derivative modifier in the controller, it overshot the target and now you're overboosting, and the TD integral will slowly wind back down until you underboost again (assuming you don't hit redline by then).

You could have been underboosting because your WGDC was not high enough earlier in the run, or it could be that your target boost was unrealistic, and no matter what the ECU did, it would have never been able to hit it. The TD Integral still wound up trying to hit it though, which is now causing you to overboost.

How to fix it? I find the easiest way to tune ANY closed loop system, be it boost control, fueling, etc., is to first disable the closed loop behavior. Force the system to be open loop, then tune your tables to minimize error. Once you have it tuned so you're hitting target WITHOUT any closed loop corrections, add the feedback system back into the mix to correct for small errors here and there (changes in atmospheric conditions, etc).

For the boost control system, this means setting your TD Proportional and TD Integral limits to 0, so they are doing nothing. Then tweak your initial WGDC and target boost tables to get the boost curve you desire with as close to zero boost error as possible. Once you have the target boost and initial WGDC tables dialed in, add your TD Proportional and TD Integral back into the mix. Of course since you already dialed in your WGDC and target boost tables, your boost error will be basically zero, so the TD P and TD I won't be doing anything anyway, but you still want them to be enabled for changes in atmospheric conditions and what not.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 10-05-2011 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:36 PM   #299
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Now THAT is the kind of explanation post I've been looking for! Thank you, you are correct in stating I was not fully understanding on how the TD should be working and operating.

I think the info about zeroing out the TD max tables should be put in the guide to allow someone to tune the WGDC tables without correction, that statement is left out and is what confused me in the beginning, I had no idea on how to tune something when its being corrected, and causing overboost which I'm seeing as something wrong in the wrong way....

Now looking at what I have going on I could almost state that I have 1 of two things wrong... Boost target way out of reach as you noted... OR the WGDC table is too low to begin with so the TD takes over and tries to correct then ends up over correcting.

I'm currently using Mickey D's Stage 2 Boost Targets for an 08 SpecB, I can only assume that the targets should be reachable with my turbo since nothing is different between the two. But they could also be too agressive to begin with.

Here is what I'm using for a Target boost table, Let me know if this is causing my issues or not.

Target Boost Graph

Target Boost Table

One other question on tuning in the WGDC tables... Should my Target primary wastegate be my the value in my initial table? Or between the Initial and Max? this is where I'm still slighly confused on what table should read what.

I'm guessing the Initial should be the lowest WG value needed to reach that target boost in any of the gears since that varries, and then your max is the highest WG necessary to reach the target boost in any of the gears. Am I correct in that thinking?

Last edited by AB-737; 10-05-2011 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #300
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Only question I have now on that is in the tuning guide it's expecting your TDIC to be getting you to your target boost, yet your telling me to disable the TD completely and get my target boost by using the WGDC tables only.

Your explination makes the most sense to me because you are re-scaling a control system to create a certain condition and removing the correction system from it and once that condition is met you are re-enabling the correction system to help keep the boost under control when as you noted atmospheric conditions change.

I started a thread on LGT.com asking for some more input since I disabled TDP and TDI and I'm still overboosting by 1.5 and actually in 2nd gear I'm consistantly underboosting but at the same time the WGDC is below the inital value for those RPM's where I'm underboosting... not sure what the issue is there, after that 3rd and 4th gear I will just over boost by 1 to 1.5, and both of those instances the WGDC is mid range between the initial and max WGDC so I'm assuming I would have to lower the max to keep it from overboosting correct?
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