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Old 11-18-2008, 04:51 PM   #76
the suicidal eggroll
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Originally Posted by eminehart View Post
Another option is to go with a parallel boost control system. All the advantages of a mbc with no part throttle full boost and the ability to taper boost towards redline in a controlled way. It also requires very little tuning at all.
Both of those would be good for people with a turbo similar to the stock size, where partial throttle full boost and tapering at redline would be issues. On larger turbos, it's pretty easy to control boost with the throttle, and there's no real need to taper at redline.

It is a good point though.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:53 PM   #77
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Awesome write-up Noodle... just starting to play around with tuning, and this certainly clarified a lot for me, thanks!


+1 on making this a sticky!
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:56 AM   #78
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nicely done noodle. this isn't a sticky yet?
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:15 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Both of those would be good for people with a turbo similar to the stock size, where partial throttle full boost and tapering at redline would be issues. On larger turbos, it's pretty easy to control boost with the throttle, and there's no real need to taper at redline.

It is a good point though.
PTFB will always be a problem no mater what turbo you have. especially if you have to drive up steep mountains.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:10 AM   #80
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great thread - three thumbs up!!

seem to be having problem hitting my target boost at lower rpm since my perrin bcs install and tune. i've rammed up int wgdc from 1800-3200 and a little more TD proportional for boost errors 7psi and above and boost overshoots my target by +/- 1psi. tried lowering int wgdc by 2% from at 3200/WOT cell and now i'm hitting desired target boost but only by some 200-300rpms later.

just thought i post this here since the topic on boost control is recent. So do i dial up TD prop values at larger boost erros or do i dial up int wgdc at lower rpms still? just need the theory behind getting boost up early and not over shooting. thanks in advance.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:17 AM   #81
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PTFB will always be a problem no mater what turbo you have. especially if you have to drive up steep mountains.
Never tried driving up any steep mountains, but after driving around for about 4 months with the GT30, PTFB is not a problem. It's very easy to control the boost level with the throttle. 5, 10, 15, 20, whatever I want, I can do it off of sound and throttle position with relative ease.

I'd have to be driving up that steep mountain at 85-90 mph for full boost in 6th to even become a concern.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:24 AM   #82
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great thread - three thumbs up!!

seem to be having problem hitting my target boost at lower rpm since my perrin bcs install and tune. i've rammed up int wgdc from 1800-3200 and a little more TD proportional for boost errors 7psi and above and boost overshoots my target by +/- 1psi. tried lowering int wgdc by 2% from at 3200/WOT cell and now i'm hitting desired target boost but only by some 200-300rpms later.

just thought i post this here since the topic on boost control is recent. So do i dial up TD prop values at larger boost erros or do i dial up int wgdc at lower rpms still? just need the theory behind getting boost up early and not over shooting. thanks in advance.
I've been battling the same thing. Yesterday I can up with the idea to scale the y-axis a little so that you get more resolution where you want to hit boost targets.

After a lot of logging, I figured out that my max boost is attainable at 2.8k rpm. So I set one of the values on the Y-axis to that and entered my desired boost target in the cell. Then looked through my logs and saw what realistic boost targets i should enter for the cells that come before peak boost. I figure this way, TD integral isn't going to build up and cause me to overboost once I hit peak boost. Then I made sure the map is smooth in that area.

I still need to test it out and adjust my wastegate, but it seemed like a good idea.

For reference, here's what I came up with for a boost map for now:
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:12 PM   #83
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:57 AM   #84
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More thoughts:

Up till now, I've been thinking that TD should be as close to 0 as possible during a WOT run, which makes sense because the ecu is not adding corrections and that means you got your WGDC in line.

However, it does pose an interesting problem.
There is a big difference in the way the car acts between cruising -> WOT and pedal half way down -> WOT. The difference is that with the pedal halfway down, you have a lot more boost build up then when you're cruising. So you're able to reach your target boost much faster if you start with the pedal half way down, which means you won't build up as much TD corrections and overshoot your boost.

So I think the better approach would be to not worry about the TD corrections, let them build up and max out, and adjust your WGDC max table in a way so you always hit your boost and keep it. That way you don't have to worry about TD proportional bouncing around causing your boost to fluctuate. It's like a manual boost controller because you're taking away the ecu's freeplay with the TD corrections at WOT
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:22 AM   #85
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this was an awesome write up!! I cant wait to read it more thoroughly
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:12 PM   #86
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the way i'm seeing this is that you still need to tune both TD prop and int WGDC to get boost dialed in. TD is like the 'Gain' function in most EBCS - so you need higher TDs to get boost to build up/spool up faster when boost error is high. but when it gets close enough to your desired target boost, bring it back down to minimize spike and fluctuations. i was over boosting up to 1.7 bar previously at my desired peak boost/load rpm point - but now that i've reduced TDs slightly and increased int WGDC just before peak boost - i'm seeing 1.6 bar at the same rpm point, which is what i am aiming for. will keep monitoring this to see if it really works.

only other thing is that i don't seem to be able to get a smooth log of target boost. it seems to go up and down. but looking at my target boost table i have it climb gradually to peak boost rpm point before gradually dropping. so it looks smooth on the map but not the logged data. wonder why??
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:07 PM   #87
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I've been playing with the TD tables trying get teh oscillations evened out. I halved my integral tables and changed my proportional to :



Now I gotta get back to working on the boost curve

EDIT:

While these values got rid of the oscillations, they suck for turbo spool and response in lower gears (3rd4th) but they rock in 5th for slowly spooling. I ended up halfing the stock values and that gave me the best of both worlds.

Last edited by Bad Noodle; 11-21-2008 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:35 AM   #88
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Nice!! ...
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:14 PM   #89
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So can you explain the injector scaling tool in romraider ? And what exactly scaling your injector's do?
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:25 PM   #90
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So can you explain the injector scaling tool in romraider ? And what exactly scaling your injector's do?
The injector scalar is the relationship between how much time the injector is open and how much fuel it flows.

For example, if one injector will flow 5cc of fuel in 10ms, and another injector will flow 10cc in 10ms, the 2nd injector will have a scalar twice as large as the first.

In practice, if you buy some 850cc injectors, you change the injector scalar to 850cc.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:42 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
The injector scalar is the relationship between how much time the injector is open and how much fuel it flows.

For example, if one injector will flow 5cc of fuel in 10ms, and another injector will flow 10cc in 10ms, the 2nd injector will have a scalar twice as large as the first.

In practice, if you buy some 850cc injectors, you change the injector scalar to 850cc.
Ok so if I bought new injectors and put in the size of them. I wouldn't have to use the scalar would I?
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:13 PM   #92
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I'm not sure I understand your question...you would have to use the scalar to put in the size of the injectors.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:30 PM   #93
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Ok my injector size is 565cc and I put that in the area that I was supposed to put it. I would like to explain more but I am talking on my blackberry and don't have romraider
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:11 PM   #94
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Ok my injector size is 565cc and I put that in the area that I was supposed to put it. I would like to explain more but I am talking on my blackberry and don't have romraider
You might or might not. Just because an injector is rated at 565cc doesn't mean it flows at 565cc. PE injectors have been known to not flow anywhere near the advertised values. So you can do one of two things.

1.) Put the injectors in and try to use the injector scaling tool to make sure they're putting out as much as advertised.

2.) Put in 565cc and make up the difference when you scale your maf. Assuming there is a difference
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:20 PM   #95
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That is the size of my stock injectors.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:01 PM   #96
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^ if you're on stock injectors, i'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. If they're stock, just leave the injector variables stock.


From my end, I finally got a respectable boost curve:



I added a little more WGDC at 5600 rpm, but i'm not sure how to smooth out the front. Ideas?
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bad Noodle View Post
^ if you're on stock injectors, i'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. If they're stock, just leave the injector variables stock.


From my end, I finally got a respectable boost curve:



I added a little more WGDC at 5600 rpm, but i'm not sure how to smooth out the front. Ideas?
I was just checking to see what to use it for. Thanks
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Old 11-22-2008, 07:20 PM   #98
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subscribed... Awesome write up!
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Old 11-22-2008, 08:10 PM   #99
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I added a little more WGDC at 5600 rpm, but i'm not sure how to smooth out the front. Ideas?
What does your WGDC table look like? I modify the RPM columns to give me more granular control over the areas were the turbo is spooling. Typically, I have high WGDC's in the low RPM area to promote spool, and then have them lower significantly around 200-300 RPM before target boost is hit. This allows the car to ramp down WGDC to where it should be before it hits target boost.

Here are my boost and max WG tables for reference. I'm running an 18g. I hit 23 PSI at around 3.5k.

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Old 11-22-2008, 09:10 PM   #100
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Here's mine:



Should I add more WGDC at the beginning? I'm hitting full boost at 2800 rpm but that's with full TD correction applied. Should I add more early wgdc so that I won't need the full correction?
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