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Old 07-16-2009, 01:09 PM   #201
Bad Noodle
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Originally Posted by irascible View Post
Or he has done just that, it's at the end of the post here, and you missed it? (Is it different over on romraider?).

For the links links you feel were "left out", have you or anyone else provided those links or just complained without reference to what? Bad noodle took alot of time putting together all this scattered information. I didn't see anyone else taking on that initiative, but rather expected everyone to spend countless hours sifting through garbage to find what they are looking for.
The difference is that Tea Cups wants me to reference each source in line. So every time I state a fact that came from another source, it should be quoted. Kinda like journals in the research community.

The only problem is that I started that document as a reference for myself, not the community. So I didn't keep exact notes as from where each fact came from. To do this, I would essentially have to redo all the research and cross reference everything. To me, it's not worth doing just to make this a sticky.

So it is what it is... I honestly just wanted to help out those that are new to the subaru engine and ecu. As long as some people found it helpful, then it's all good. I'm not too worried about it not getting stickyed
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:43 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Noodle View Post
The difference is that Tea Cups wants me to reference each source in line. So every time I state a fact that came from another source, it should be quoted. Kinda like journals in the research community.
Never said "each line". You have a section on boost control, for example. You put the links to the threads/posts at the beginning of that section where you got the information. If that section has several sub-sections from different sources, then place those links at the beginning of each sub-section. Not referencing each line.

Quote:
The only problem is that I started that document as a reference for myself, not the community. So I didn't keep exact notes as from where each fact came from. To do this, I would essentially have to redo all the research and cross reference everything. To me, it's not worth doing just to make this a sticky.
Well, that is the key - you don't remember all the sources of the info, so even the links at the end do not include all sources. I can understand why you don't want to go back and do it, but since you went ahead and posted "a complete tuning guide", rather than some casual thing you were posting, it would make sense to reference the info correctly. That, of course, is up to you, but I know with a least some stuff in there based on what I wrote, some of it line by line paraphrasing (ex. knock control). While you do have a link in there for that, it makes me wonder what else is similar that does not have an obvious link for references from other people.

I'm not trying to be negative about your work, just explaining my position as to why I would not give it any "official" status at the romraider site. I think it is very important to give credit from all sources in a clear manner when you have a document that is almost entirely based on other's work/opinions. It also allows others to easily find the original information and also to determine if something was inaccurately represented in the "translation".
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:10 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Bad Noodle View Post
The difference is that Tea Cups wants me to reference each source in line. So every time I state a fact that came from another source, it should be quoted. Kinda like journals in the research community.

The only problem is that I started that document as a reference for myself, not the community. So I didn't keep exact notes as from where each fact came from. To do this, I would essentially have to redo all the research and cross reference everything. To me, it's not worth doing just to make this a sticky.

So it is what it is... I honestly just wanted to help out those that are new to the subaru engine and ecu. As long as some people found it helpful, then it's all good. I'm not too worried about it not getting stickyed
That's just childish, honestly.

Tea Cups has had plenty of time and is fully capable of compiling a guide using the format he prefers... and didn't. Now that you took the initiative, he's complaining and being stubborn until you comply to his demands. Ultimately just further frustrating/punishing the romraider community.

Personally, i've tried finding information on tuning, asked and been ignored with the assumption that I should search for hours.

Myself and tons of others thank YOU Bad Noodle.

Last edited by irascible; 07-16-2009 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:32 PM   #204
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That's just childish, honestly.

A long time ago, Tea Cups could have created a guide using the format he prefers... and didn't. Now that you took the initiative, he's complaining and has made the decision to punish the romraider community further until you comply to his demands?? Give me a break.
I'm not complaining...I was merely stating why I did not make this guide a sticky at romraider. I'm not sure how something not being a sticky is "punishing" the romraider community. Also not sure how it is being childish to suggest that other people's work/ideas should be clearly referenced in document that is based on almost entirely on other people's work/ideas. The fact that you feel that it has been very helpful to you doesn't discount the need for proper references. Whether Bad Noodle wants to do that or not is up to him. I don't care either way (info he's used from my stickies he's generallly referenced adequately in the document, just not other people's work).
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:50 PM   #205
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Bad Noodle, thanks for putting this together.
For those that want a sticky, use the subscribe to thread button, thanks.
Here are some thing I thought you might want to look over.
Quote:
Also, take a look at the structure of the stock map, you'll want to follow the basic layout, but just go a bit leaner A/F at the parts where the map leans out.
Quote:
5.) Keep doing this until your leanest part of the map is what you want. As mentioned before (between 10.5 to 12)
I think you meant the richest part.
Quote:
Injector Latency
"dead" time of the injector that is based on battery voltage and fuel pressure.
Do the same thing as you did for your injector scaling, but do it for the entire MAF curve. This is why it's so important to have the stock intake.
Stock intake or not, MAF should be rescaled/checked. I think MAF scaling to be done 1st before others.

PS, how dare anyone insult tea cups on a open source tuning forum

Last edited by sleepyfu; 07-16-2009 at 02:54 PM. Reason: PS, how dare anyone insult tea cups on a open source tuning forum
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:07 PM   #206
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Just be clear, I think Bad Noodle's guide can be very useful to those new to tuning. Certainly, no one else has even attempted to create tuning guide on that scale for OS. I've even made suggestions for corrections related to ECU logic (the only area I feel comfortable making definitive statements about) and he's fixed/updated those items for the most part.

Based on the info alone, I think it should be stickied, however, at least as far as the RomRaider site is concerned, I'm leary to do so due to, what I feel, are the lack of clear references. I'm not talking about line by line. Take a section from the document, for example:

TUNING BOOST
link1
link2
line3


...TEXT...

Something simple like that. The links could be links to individual posts, threads, or articles.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:08 PM   #207
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It's no big deal really, we just have different styles when it comes to intellectual property. To me, the guide is not meant to be the definite source of tuning info, it's not a professional document, and is not meant to be anything formal. It's just for fun.

I wrote it because I found all the official posts/stickys/thread intimidating and not meant for a newbie. To me, they were hard to understand and took a long long time to dig through before anything started making sense.

The idea behind the guide is to lay down the ground work so that when readers go back and tackle the sticky's and FAQs, they make sense. If they research a topic, they have an understanding of the basics and can follow the conversation in the thread. The guide is meant as an intermediate step between not knowing anything and the stickys. It's just a starting point. Reader's shouldn't tune their cars without reading the official documents first.

Either way, I appreciate all the work Tea Cups did in the tuning community and I'm sure RR wouldn't be as successful as it is if he wasn't so detail oriented.

Last edited by Bad Noodle; 07-16-2009 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:09 PM   #208
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It's no big deal really, we just have different styles when it comes to intellectual property. To me, the guide is not meant to be the definite source of tuning info, it's not a professional document, and is not meant to be anything formal. It's just for fun.
I have to side with Tea Cups mate. It doesn;t really matter what your intentions were/are - the fact is you have published a document with information from other sources. If you kept it to yourself, then no harm no foul, but you have a PDF book available for all to download (a publiched document) which lacks citation of original authors whose words, ideas and methodologies you have directly copied - in the real world that is plagarism

I also think it would be wrong for Tea Cups to link it anyhoo, and actually even allow it on the RomRaider website, regardless of it's helpfulness to the RomRaider community. It actually opens the RomRaider.com team up for legal action re plagarised works. You yourself are lucky that no one has taken action, because they are legally in their right to do so.

Just because the authors you have copied are community members and not published authors, does not mean they are not protected by law from plagarism - regardless of your original intentions of the document.


Just something for you to consider.

Regards,
Leslie.


P.S. Don't get me wrong, I actually think the document is a great resource and valuable to Subaru tuners. It contains a lot of good information and I regularly point those ppl with tuning related questions to it. All it needs are a citations to the original authors of the information in it and all is good

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Old 07-16-2009, 11:22 PM   #209
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To be fair, he's not copying anything verbatim, but simply taking info from multiple sources and putting it in his own words. And, I assume, at least some of it he has learned through his own experience in tuning guided by what he's read (for example, some of the individual tuning steps). The document does have a list of screen names at the beginning of the authors of posts he's used as sources and there are some links at the end as well. So, IMO, it is more like a report that has insufficient documentation of references than any case of plagarism.
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Old 07-16-2009, 11:29 PM   #210
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I guess it would be up to a magistrate/judge to decide that
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:06 AM   #211
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You yourself are lucky that no one has taken action, because they are legally in their right to do so.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:21 AM   #212
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^ +1.... lol
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:52 AM   #213
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Bad Noodle - if you want, I could help with the references if you can give me more details about the sites, forums and sub-forums where you were searching (and any additional authors not listed), I could probably find the posts myself and add the links to the documents. PM me if you are interested.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:56 AM   #214
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I definitely understand both points of view, but to be honest, how can you NOT side with Tea Cups. The amount of his own time he put into research and development of RR and everything else is enormous. And he did it all for free, when he could have easily charged money for how powerful his software is. All he's asking is to give more specific citation where its applicable. It doesn't have to be a research paper, but even rephrasing something without citation in this context is a bit out of bounds.

I certainly understand why Bad Noodle feels the way he does (considering this was never even written to be posted on a board), but considering its Tea Cups and not some random forum dude asking, its a bit different.

That being said, the guide did exactly what Bad Noodle said it does for me at least I got a well rounded basic explanation, and when I wanted to know more I started lurking on RR, which is where I spend a ****load of my time now
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:16 PM   #215
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^^^ totally agree, I had even started to make my own guide for personal purposed when I decided to learn about OS and tuning....when I found this I stoped

according to Noodle it started as a personal document that has turned out to SO MUCH more, I absolutely love it and Im always checking for updates, but becuase of what it has turned out to be it now has to be properly documented as Tea Cup point

If more pleople voluntered a little bit of their time to help as Tea Cup has, we could probably get this done in no time......I dont know if I could be of any help since Im new to tuning but I would be willing to try
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:25 PM   #216
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I definitely understand both points of view, but to be honest, how can you NOT side with Tea Cups. The amount of his own time he put into research and development of RR and everything else is enormous. And he did it all for free, when he could have easily charged money for how powerful his software is. All he's asking is to give more specific citation where its applicable. It doesn't have to be a research paper, but even rephrasing something without citation in this context is a bit out of bounds.

I certainly understand why Bad Noodle feels the way he does (considering this was never even written to be posted on a board), but considering its Tea Cups and not some random forum dude asking, its a bit different.

That being said, the guide did exactly what Bad Noodle said it does for me at least I got a well rounded basic explanation, and when I wanted to know more I started lurking on RR, which is where I spend a ****load of my time now
Even though i'm extremely grateful for all the work that Tea Cups put into OS, I personally don't see his request justified due to the fact that Bad Noodle does reference the sites and the people of which he gathered information from.

It's a simple fact that Tea Cups, during all his work/research, could have easily compiled and maintained a guide in the format he desires.... which wasn't done. Now he's telling other's to reformat there's or he won't give it his "official" stamp of approval and make it a sticky on RR.

Their are several other options that Tea Cups could chose from.

1. Make the guide a group effort, providing the links for sections he feels is missed.
2. Work with Bad Noodle to create a centralized repository like SourceForge where it can be modified/changed by select user's where revisions are controlled by approvers.

Last edited by irascible; 07-17-2009 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:10 PM   #217
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It's a simple fact that Tea Cups, during all his work/research, could have easily compiled and maintained a guide in the format he desires.... which wasn't done.
True, but instead we have a ridiculously bad ass version of RomRaider with better definitions than software you actually have to pay for, and other amazing tools like LearningView (can't overstate how awesome this tool is)

Quote:
Now he's telling other's to reformat there's or he won't give it his "official" stamp of approval and make it a sticky on RR.
Yea, and its completely his right.

Quote:
Their are several other options that Tea Cups could chose from.

1. Make the guide a group effort, providing the links for sections he feels is missed.
2. Work with Bad Noodle to create a centralized repository like SourceForge where it can be modified/changed by select user's where revisions are controlled by approvers.
Instead of making Bad Noodle or Tea Cups do anything, is there any way that we could help/contribute? This way its right by everyone and they don't have to do anything else.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:12 PM   #218
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Even though i'm extremely grateful for all the work that Tea Cups put into OS, I personally don't see his request justified due to the fact that Bad Noodle does reference the sites and the people of which he gathered information from.

It's a simple fact that Tea Cups, during all his work/research, could have easily compiled and maintained a guide in the format he desires.... which wasn't done. Now he's telling other's to reformat there's or he won't give it his "official" stamp of approval and make it a sticky on RR. To me, that's childish and makes it easy to not side with Tea Cups.
The problem with your argument is that the references are not anywhere near complete, as Bad Noodle has already stated and also indicated that it would take a lot of time to go back and find them (obviously, then, that means quite a few are missing). So, it isn't a matter of the format of the references, but the missing references themselves. The format I suggested would just make it easier for readers to find more info and also it would be clear where the info came from.

Anyway, I've offered to help. I would really like to see this as a sticky at the romraider site. It isn't like I'm sitting on the sidelines here. I've already spent time going through and noting many correction/suggestions to the ECU logic portions of the document earlier, which Bad Noodle implemented for the most part. I'm willing to help out with the references as well as time permits.

As far as creating my own guide, well, there are many things that I would like to do that I don't have time to do with all the other OS stuff. I literally spend about 15-20 hours a week of my free time when I am in the heat of definition creation (like now) and countless hours in IDA reverse engineering the ECU. Not to mention updating and adding new features to Learning View, answering ECU logic questions on various sites, and wearing the admin hat at the romraider site. I barely had time to do the ECU logic stickies, let alone create an entire tuning guide (for which there would be more qualified people as far as general tuning is concerned than I).

So, I appreciate the work that Bad Noodle has done, but I think proper references are an important part if it is to be highlighted at the romraider site as a sticky and linked to in the FAQ. So, if you think that makes me look "childish", so be it, I don't spend time dwelling on what others think about me, positive or negative.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:18 PM   #219
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Bad Noodle, thank you for that guide. I was one of the people reading bits and pieces of info all over the damn place. I would only grasp little bits of info as most of it I didn't understand. After reading your guide and getting the big picture I can now understand the more specific posts A LOT better.

Personally I don't think you should take all the time to go back and add references for each and every section, you did a fine job of making it known you did not write all the info yourself, that it came from a lot of smart people in the OS world. If those authors were all for profit, then it would be different, or if somebody went through and made a new guide with every author of info listed then it would be time to take yours down. Until that happens your guide is REALLY helping us newbs to tuning and understanding engine management.
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Old 07-17-2009, 02:35 PM   #220
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Bad Noodle, thank you for that guide. I was one of the people reading bits and pieces of info all over the damn place. I would only grasp little bits of info as most of it I didn't understand. After reading your guide and getting the big picture I can now understand the more specific posts A LOT better.

Personally I don't think you should take all the time to go back and add references for each and every section, you did a fine job of making it known you did not write all the info yourself, that it came from a lot of smart people in the OS world. If those authors were all for profit, then it would be different, or if somebody went through and made a new guide with every author of info listed then it would be time to take yours down. Until that happens your guide is REALLY helping us newbs to tuning and understanding engine management.
Exactly....
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Old 07-17-2009, 03:47 PM   #221
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If those authors were all for profit, then it would be different, or if somebody went through and made a new guide with every author of info listed then it would be time to take yours down. Until that happens your guide is REALLY helping us newbs to tuning and understanding engine management.
I don't think anyone is debating how useful and helpful the guide is. Anyone who did that would be a liar I just personally its a bit ludicrous to demand or expect that this guide appear on the RR site if it doesn't meet Tea Cups qualifications. Its his software, his site, and his standards (his knowledge), and his qualifications/standards are perfectly reasonable, so if no one wants to change it then we can leave it here in the EM section on NASIOC.

If I read everything correctly, thats really the only source of disagreement. Tea Cups said its got ton of good info for n00bs and its worthy of being stickied. He's just hesitant to put it on HIS site because of the issues listed.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:40 PM   #222
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I just personally its a bit ludicrous to demand or expect that this guide appear on the RR site if it doesn't meet Tea Cups qualifications. Its his software, his site, and his standards (his knowledge), and his qualifications/standards are perfectly reasonable, so if no one wants to change it then we can leave it here in the EM section on NASIOC.
I think you jumped on the support bandwagon a bit quick there cowboy. You missed that he was the one that brought up RR (post below), no one here demanded anything that sparked this discussion but himself.

Here's the post, and personally I called his request childish for a few reasons, mainly because there was no real justification for bringing his RR personal views to Nasioc, and secondly the comment he made at this end of this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
While I have nothing to do with whether this is a sticky on Nasioc or not, the reason I haven't made it a sticky at the romraider site is that the document, which pretty much almost entirely paraphrases information from other people's posts, fails to adequately reference the source of this information. Each section should have a set of links pointing to the threads and posts where the information was obtained IMO. I've said this several times before, but apparently the author doesn't feel this is necessary or doesn't want to spend the time to do it.
However, I think this post below is admirable and if they do decide to work together... everyone will benefit from the outcome, i'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
Bad Noodle - if you want, I could help with the references if you can give me more details about the sites, forums and sub-forums where you were searching (and any additional authors not listed), I could probably find the posts myself and add the links to the documents. PM me if you are interested.

Last edited by irascible; 07-17-2009 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:42 PM   #223
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I don't think anyone is debating how useful and helpful the guide is. Anyone who did that would be a liar I just personally its a bit ludicrous to demand or expect that this guide appear on the RR site if it doesn't meet Tea Cups qualifications. Its his software, his site, and his standards (his knowledge),
Not my software nor is it my site, I just contribute along with a few other current developers and many past ones. I just happen to be the admin that spends the most time there and is the most active in regards to current events there.

There is already a post about his guide at the site, so it isn't like it is forbidden or something. I was just hesistant to sticky it and reference it in the FAQ until the sources were documented properly. Not sure why some people would have a problem with proper credit being given to those whose information is the source of the document? The added benefit is that anyone reading it can simply click on the source(s) of the info and get more detailt there. OMFG! That's such a childish request!

Anyway, I'm done arguing about this. Bad Noodle PM'd me, so hopefully I can help in some way. But, if he ends up not wanting to do it, that's cool - it is up to him, obviously.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:49 PM   #224
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Here's the post, and personally I called his request childish because of the comments he made at the end of his post and for bringing it here on nasioc where I don't see any real justification for doing in the first place.
The justification is to see if the document could be updated with the proper references. People wanted it to be a sticky. Doesn't appear that is going to happen on Nasioc for whatever reason, so I made a suggestion on changes needed so I could sticky it at the RR site. Is it really that complicated?
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:54 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
The justification is to see if the document could be updated with the proper references. People wanted it to be a sticky. Doesn't appear that is going to happen on Nasioc for whatever reason, so I made a suggestion on changes needed so I could sticky it at the RR site. Is it really that complicated?
Apparently it is that complicated, as you still don't seem to understand

It was a personal document that he decided to share with the community. The "proper references" is a matter of opinion, which is yours, and only yours. And in case you haven't noticed, this isn't RR. And, if you wanted to sticky it over on RR... you would.

Besides, thought you were "done argueing about this".
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