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Old 11-20-2008, 10:51 PM   #101
PPhilthy
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
I wouldnt argue this either, but thats not what is being pointed out.
I doubt your 40whp loss in 800rpm is from the intake.. Probably more to do with the back housing on the turbo.
Mostly likely a combination of both, but there's no question a better design and suitable intake manifold is going to provide gains up top regardless...
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
prove it, bring the car to the dyno event on sunday, ill be there

btw if you think an hta86 will outperform a 40R, you have a fundamental lack of understanding about turbocharger dynamics. billet wheels dont mean sh~t
well you can shave weight with them and reduce spool up time...they can also be redesigned to change the flowrate of the wheel be it by fin geometry and/or fin count.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:14 AM   #103
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It is amazing what can be done these days with a stock location turbo on a street car. But honestly, it's a bit laggy. The only reason that I bring this up is that we've been seeing a slew of these stock location "GT##R's" and people are expecting "real" GT##R performance out of them.

Dynapacks are not exactly known for reading low... (I had one for 3 years) here's a shot from Cobb's "heartbreaker" Mustang dyno at 4800 FASL:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...8&postcount=25

Granted, we've got short piping and the intake and all, but we're over 420 wft-lbs at 3900 rpm - yours tears through 400 wft-lbs at 4500 rpm.

Y'all have done a great job with a stock location setup, I just want people that are searching for this stuff to be aware that there is a reason to go rotated and with a "real" GT##R. - It looks like you're planning that anyway, I just like for people to be able to have real impressions of things.

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Last edited by siegelracing; 11-21-2008 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:55 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
Mostly likely a combination of both, but there's no question a better design and suitable intake manifold is going to provide gains up top regardless...
You are only going to gain as much as you can get out of the motor.. once it gets to that back housing, you might still have a problem...

As for the "i figured as much"
I posted a lot more then I am not going to dyno a customers car, one that is missing a trans at that.

I told you if you want to test your 540whp stock location vs my 440whp rotated mount let me know.

I also mentioned that you wont be making that 540whp on a mustang dyno.

Shoot me a PM if you want to test that bad boy of yours out..

Junior
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:57 AM   #105
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1642465

Were is his 40whp drop off?? Same dyno, AEM, FPRED almost the same exact WHP. Even has stock cams and heads, he also has 500rpms of faster spool, HP, and TQ
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:19 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1642465

Were is his 40whp drop off?? Same dyno, AEM, FPRED almost the same exact WHP. Even has stock cams and heads, he also has 500rpms of faster spool, HP, and TQ
LOL - Did you even compare our two dyno charts? Same spool, I'm making more power and his dyno only runs to 6698 (my chart runs out to 6850) and has the same drop off at the same rpm...? That car was running a open cutout and I still made wtrq and whp...

You're just looking for a fight aren't you?
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:39 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by siegelracing View Post
It is amazing what can be done these days with a stock location turbo on a street car. But honestly, it's a bit laggy. The only reason that I bring this up is that we've been seeing a slew of these stock location "GT##R's" and people are expecting "real" GT##R performance out of them.

Dynojets are not exactly known for reading low... (I had one for 3 years) here's a shot from Cobb's "heartbreaker" Mustang dyno at 4800 FASL:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...8&postcount=25

Granted, we've got short piping and the intake and all, but we're over 420 wft-lbs at 3900 rpm - yours tears through 400 wft-lbs at 4500 rpm.

Y'all have done a great job with a stock location setup, I just want people that are searching for this stuff to be aware that there is a reason to go rotated and with a "real" GT##R. - It looks like you're planning that anyway, I just like for people to be able to have real impressions of things.

Siegel
What's with the Topspeed crew? It's pretty funny that you guys continue to compare your dedicate race car to my off the self bolt on turbo...?

The results that you have on your race car are far from what a normal customer with a stock intake manifold and traditional style FMIC, maintaining all the factory accessories will see - you're misleading people a bit

I'm happy with the performance of this basic bolt on turbo, it's a great option for people in the market for one.
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:43 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
LOL - Did you even compare our two dyno charts? Same spool, I'm making more power and his dyno only runs to 6698 (my chart runs out to 6850) and has the same drop off at the same rpm...? That car was running a open cutout and I still made wtrq and whp...

You're just looking for a fight aren't you?
Just to clarify we took the car out to 7400 and hp fell no more than maybe 10 to 15 whp. Don't even sweat what everyone is saying your car is beast don't let it bother you! In the end it doesn't matter!

Last edited by trbowrx; 11-21-2008 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:16 AM   #109
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I'm really not sweating it all too hard, it's actually funny...

Great job with your car again. When you get around to posting your pump/meth no cutout dyno chart - have Hill overlay my pump/meth dyno chart and post it.

Last edited by PPhilthy; 11-21-2008 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:27 AM   #110
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I'm really not sweating it all too hard, it's actually funny...

Great job with your car again. When you get around to posting your pump/meth no cutout dyno chart - have Hill overlay my pump/meth dyno chart and post it.
i will i am going to give him a ring today anyway. and my pump and meth map is posted in my thread now overlayed with my race gas map. o and thanks again for the kind words.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:06 PM   #111
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Everybody please settle down a bit.

The declining power on Philthy's car is in small part a result of both flow dynamics of the stock bits but more so of the radical boost decline that this car sees from peak boost to redline.




As you can see from the graphs we're losing 4 psi from 4750 to redline. This is where the meat of the power loss is coming from. If we were able to hold 31psi flat, the car would gain HP all the way to redline even with the stock intake manifold in place. As for the causes of this boost decline, I agree with Junior that it's a result of the turbine housing and likely a result of the turbulence caused by the integrated 44mm wastegate.

I would also fully expect the FPRed to spool 500rpm faster on Paul's car since he's A, running AVCS and B, running a much less aggressive stock cam. Both of these things will influence the spool characteristics. Also, the Red has a roughly a 63mm turbine while the GT35R has 68mm wheel so spool characteristics should be better even without a difference in cams and an AVCS delete.

Siegel,
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Originally Posted by Agile Auto View Post
Even with the integrated 44mm Tial gate on the ATP turbine housing, we were still seeing boost taper to 26-27psi at redline on the Q16 map. This leads me to believe that this engine would still have significant high RPM power improvement if a rotated GT35R with an external gate was used...

...If you're looking for all out, brutal power and are willing to sacrifice a little bit of power band, the ATP bolt-on GT35R is a great bang for the buck for those who don't want to go for a rotated mount setup.
I believe that we made this point abundantly clear in the first post, for those who read that part. There is no question that a properly setup and tuned rotated GT35R will have higher efficiency. I don't think anyone will argue that point. The bolt-on option is good for those who don't have the funds for a rotated kit.

Let's keep things civil if at all possible and get back to a meaningful discussion here.

-Hill
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:07 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post

You're just looking for a fight aren't you?

Looking for a fight
All I did was post that I wouldnt blame the intake manifold for your 40whp drop in power. I gave you some information based off stuff I have seen. Mentioned that it could just be the small back housing.

You replied with stuff like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
Word, I'm told you can turn water into wine too on your dyno

I'm making the trip up to the EFI dyno day in CT this Sunday - why don't you bring your 35r setup with a stock manifold and let's see that bad boy make 620whp at 8000rpms...
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I figured as much...

So I am the one starting fights?
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:25 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Agile Auto View Post
Everybody please settle down a bit.

The declining power on Philthy's car is in small part a result of both flow dynamics of the stock bits but more so of the radical boost decline that this car sees from peak boost to redline.


As you can see from the graphs we're losing 4 psi from 4750 to redline. This is where the meat of the power loss is coming from. If we were able to hold 31psi flat, the car would gain HP all the way to redline even with the stock intake manifold in place. As for the causes of this boost decline, I agree with Junior that it's a result of the turbine housing and likely a result of the turbulence caused by the integrated 44mm wastegate.


-Hill
This was all I was trying to say before Mr. Philthy decided to start trash talking me... Challenging me to a dyno race

Hill great work on the AEM and tune overall! .. I am loving my AEM in the GC.


Junior
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:53 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
This was all I was trying to say before Mr. Philthy decided to start trash talking me... Challenging me to a dyno race

Hill great work on the AEM and tune overall! .. I am loving my AEM in the GC.

Junior
Did you even read post #101 - I stated that it was a combination of both and that an aftermarket intake manifold would help carry the power out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Weird, I have made 580 and had 570@ redline(7800) with a 35r, and with 620whp ended up @ 600whp by 8000 as well..


Listen you're the one that started the trash talking - I called you TWICE today invite you to E-Town tonight, since you decline to prove you can carry out power till 8000rpms on a stock intake manifold - who's dyno racing ??? LOL

Your request for street racing will continue to be ignored.

Last edited by PPhilthy; 11-21-2008 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:01 PM   #115
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I would also fully expect the FPRed to spool 500rpm faster on Paul's car since he's A, running AVCS and B, running a much less aggressive stock cam. Both of these things will influence the spool characteristics. Also, the Red has a roughly a 63mm turbine while the GT35R has 68mm wheel so spool characteristics should be better even without a difference in cams and an AVCS delete.
-Hill
Thanks for posting more info Hill...

I think the comparison between the FP Red Pump/Meth 26psi vs ATP3R Pump/Meth 26psi is a more apples to apples - would you overlay those two runs and post it here?
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:05 PM   #116
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What's with the Topspeed crew? It's pretty funny that you guys continue to compare your dedicate race car to my off the self bolt on turbo...?

The results that you have on your race car are far from what a normal customer with a stock intake manifold and traditional style FMIC, maintaining all the factory accessories will see - you're misleading people a bit
umm, breath much?

now stop feeling like a victim as scott really came in here and said nothing more than a rotated 35R would make more power than the oem placed turbo, which is true for several reasons in this case. He isn't bashing you or trying to directly compare your car with their racecar.

If anything I see him as trying to smooth out what Doug started saying...really in all Junior and everyone is saying the hotside of your turbo is largely to blame...I'd also consider the inlet of the compressor as a possibility.

Now enjoy your car as you do have a great deal of power but do have room to grow. There's always bigger and better
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:15 PM   #117
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I'm not debating that and have said that too in this thread - I'm going to try an aftermarket manifold and see what that does before moving on to a bigger system.

Topspeed was in here posting their race cars chart for no purpose at all, other than to state the obvious... Add a custom rotated kit, intercooler and an aftermarket intake manifold and you can speed up spool - what's that really add to a bolt on turbo thread..?
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:27 PM   #118
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Listen you're the one that started the trash talking - I called you TWICE today invite you to E-Town tonight, since you decline to prove you can carry out power till 8000rpms on a stock intake manifold - who's dyno racing ??? LOL

Your request for street racing will continue to be ignored.

Post up a time slip first.. Then invite me to the track.

Not like I could race at etown in anything I own anymore. Something something, safety equipment.. Thats what happens when you actually go fast instead of talking about it, or racing on the dyno..

I posted my proof for making power with the stock intake manifold in the form of a 10.42@135.XX mph pass.. In a full weight 06sti with a 35r..
I also posted the 10.60/10.65@131mph passes as well with about 40 more whp then you but it was made on the magic dyno.
Then a 10.9@129mph with 40 less whp then you..
Like I said, show me something before you invite me anywere.

With that said, since you already posted you are going to the track tonight, I look foward to seeing the time slips. You should be in the 128-130mph range with that power..

Again no **** talking from my part, you seem to be a very defensive person. If you read my post, I never insulted you or your car.. I also never insulted Hill, who I respect and have seen some nice numbers from.

You started with the DYNO war..
I simply stated that I already proved my "dyno" numbers @ the track already, and dont need to redyno.. I also told you that the trans is out of the car getting the high speed ratios..
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:28 PM   #119
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umm, breath much?

now stop feeling like a victim as scott really came in here and said nothing more than a rotated 35R would make more power than the oem placed turbo, which is true for several reasons in this case. He isn't bashing you or trying to directly compare your car with their racecar.

If anything I see him as trying to smooth out what Doug started saying...really in all Junior and everyone is saying the hotside of your turbo is largely to blame...I'd also consider the inlet of the compressor as a possibility.

Now enjoy your car as you do have a great deal of power but do have room to grow. There's always bigger and better

+1
This dude is very defensive..
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:55 PM   #120
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i really love that set up-great job guys,junior says hes a lover not a fighter lol..

dave/mspt
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:56 PM   #121
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Now now girls... power doesn't fall off at the top end, it just spikes at 6k rpms! The glass is half full!

Oh and etown is closed tonight due to cold weather.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:58 PM   #122
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+1
This dude is very defensive..
Defensive You come into this thread bragging how your 35r setup holds 600whp till 8000rpms, I say prove it this weekend at the CT Dyno day and then the cars apart...

You then proceed to challenge me to a street race against your 440whp car, I call you twice today to invite you to e-town tonight and now you have nothing to prove and I'm defensive...
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:59 PM   #123
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oh and IBTL.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Since you are going to be around, why not test out that 540whp race against my 440whp pumpgas GC ?? You got me covered by 100whp!!! You should take me right out!
i see your banking on the fact that Philthy has no concept of power/weight and traction
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:39 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by M.S.P.T View Post
i really love that set up-great job guys,junior says hes a lover not a fighter lol..

dave/mspt
I'm a lover, of a good fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
Defensive You come into this thread bragging how your 35r setup holds 600whp till 8000rpms, I say prove it this weekend at the CT Dyno day and then the cars apart...

You then proceed to challenge me to a street race against your 440whp car, I call you twice today to invite you to e-town tonight and now you have nothing to prove and I'm defensive...
I didnt attack you once, nor did I brag about anything.. I really have no need to brag to you or anyone else.. I love fast cars, its what I do. I simply added in my experiences with the stock manifolds.. You took it the wrong way I guess.. Hence me and a few others calling you defensive.

As for challenging you... Yea after you started with the BS..
Dont get things mixed up either.. Me saying I have nothing to prove to you doesnt mean I wont run your car @ the track either..
Drive out to ATCO tonight, since Etown is closed. Post up a slip faster then 11.2 and Sunday I will meet you up at ISLAND for some runs.

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i see your banking on the fact that Philthy has no concept of power/weight and traction

Damn you Ron, that was my secret plan of attack.. I figured I could give up 100whp and make it an even race.
If I really wanted to make him look slow, I just load my racegas file that makes 50whp more then his.. and thats on my stock long block.
But thats only if I wanted to brag about something.. Not my style
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