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Old 11-17-2008, 07:49 PM   #1
IAG Performance
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Default IAG Performance Dyno Session #4 Tuning by RiftsWRX (Jorge). 5 total 457TQ Dom3 Again

November 15, 2008

Dynojet 424x




Car#1: Vince D (Run 11 on 93 octane/ Run 17 on VP MS109)

04 Forester XT
DOM 4.0R Internally Gated
PE 850CC
WBR FMIC
Perrin Big MAF Intake
TGV Deletes (Required with DOM 4.0R)
Catless TBE
KS Tech Intake Spacers
AEM 3.5 Bar MAP Sensor
Cobb V2 AP





Car#2 Pete T

02 WRX
2.5L Hybrid
07 STI Injectors
VF43 Turbo
Catted TBE
Stock Airbox
Cobb V2 AP
JDM STI TMIC





Car# 3: Dan K ( Run 14 on 93 octane/ Run 19 on VP MS109)

05 STI
GT52 Turbo
IAG 44MM EWG Uppipe
GT Spec Equal Length Header
APS 525 FMIC
PE 850CC
APS 70MM CAI
Catless TBE
Cobb V2 AP
AEM 3.5 Bar MAP Sensor




Car#4: Mike H (Run 35 on 93 octane/ Run 44 on Turbo Blue)

07 STI
DOM 3.0R
DW 850CC
Perrin FMIC
Perrin Big MAF Intake
IAG 38MM EWG Uppipe
Catless TBE
AEM 3.5 Bar MAP Sensor
CP Pistons
Cobb V2 AP




Car#5: Boris P (Project Wide5)

02 WRX
2.5L Hybrid
18G Turbo
IAG 38MM EWG Uppipe
GT Spec GenII Unequal Length Header
DW 750CC
APS 70MM CAI
STI TMIC
JDM Intake with TGV Deletes
Perrin Fuel Rails
Cobb V2 AP






Another month, another successful dyno session! Jorge, even though he was deathly ill, stuck it out and did an awesome job as always. For anyone who is interested in the next dyno session, send us a PM.

Regards,
JJ
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:59 PM   #2
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Wow, Boris finally got his car done! Great numbers all around, I want a ride in Vince's car now that a real man owns it!
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:01 PM   #3
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Whats with the afr's on those three graphs.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:59 PM   #4
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I tihnk you guys talked me into not caring about noise and putting that damn ewg back on. maybe sometime in the future
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:39 PM   #5
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Strange afr's... wideband?
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:16 PM   #6
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Who put the cp's and built Mike H's motor in his 07 STI listed above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norexyet View Post
Whats with the afr's on those three graphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
Strange afr's... wideband?
Yeah I'm wondering the same thing.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:44 PM   #7
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Its a phenomena with front mounts and charge delay. Its been something we've discussed as a community for years.

To edify that point, check out the TMIC vs the FMIC cars. The TMIC's barely exhibit it (if at all), vs the FMIC's which exaggerate the effect.

I won't geek out too bad, but there are some tables that relieve the effect, but the bigger the IC, and the badder the setup, the worst it is. Take that as the abridged response. But I know its been discussed at length on IWSTI years ago.

EDIT: JJ, FWIW, I'm finally starting to feel human today.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:45 PM   #8
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So from that response, Jorge, I'm guessing its not a bad thing.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:02 PM   #9
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Question: Why are the graph's not corrected? I noticed mine was not corrected either. I use found the Dynojet Application and corrected it to get the same correction that I see on other graphs.

Please advise why mine and these are not corrected? Just curious.

~Jeff~
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:03 PM   #10
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excellent numbers. I'll see you this spring Jorge.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:19 PM   #11
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Jordan: It's one of those "is what it is" things. It's not good or bad. It could be BETTER, but that's still a conversation we're having with Cobb. It's more a limiting factor of feature set in the denso ECU. Speed density cleans it right up! But I can't see people shelling out $1900 for an AEM over that.

Jeff: Personally, I don't believe in correcting numbers. But, at the end of the day, the graphs are posted up by the guys at IAG who take the raw .DRF files from the dyno computer, and then export the graphs anyway they see fit.

My personal preference is to show how the car reacted naturally at that time.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:28 PM   #12
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Uncorrected FTW! Ok thats whats up I knew there was something logical behind those afr's, I just learned something.TMIC throttle response FTW anyway...

Last edited by TDagen; 11-19-2008 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96accord View Post
Question: Why are the graph's not corrected? I noticed mine was not corrected either. I use found the Dynojet Application and corrected it to get the same correction that I see on other graphs.

Please advise why mine and these are not corrected? Just curious.

~Jeff~

As Jorge stated, we choose to show it as it is. I could go in and change all the runs to SAE correction and gain 2-6 hp on each graph in this session. I will be happy to do that if anyone wants to see any of these runs in any of the correction factors. IE: SAE, DIN, EEC, STD, or JIS.

To help make my point, if you change the first car to STD correction, the car would have "made" 445whp and 448wtq. Now that would be a but unrealistic....right? Again, every correction factor would have inflated these numbers, and as any of our customers know, that is not what we are about. What we care about is how the customer ultimately feels in the end. The truth is that if we wanted an inflated number, we would not have chosen to tune on a dyno-JET.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanretro1223 View Post
Who put the cp's and built Mike H's motor in his 07 STI listed above?
Khalid,

Sorry I missed this question.

We built his motor here at the shop. His car came in with cracked pistons in both #2 and #4 prior to us installing the DOM3 or FMIC.

Regards,
JJ
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:07 PM   #15
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did he just say my car has an std????

i like the raw data approach better and as much as everyone likes to see big numbers they mean nothing if you don't feel it in the seat of you pants when you hit the go pedal
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:10 PM   #16
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No its not, if it was it would be higher is what he was getting at. Again Uncorrected FTW!
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:12 PM   #17
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The dip in these seems excessive, but Jorge is correct....some FMIC applications can have a slight dip prior to the onset of full boost. The FIBET Table(zero it out) seems to help a little. Often this phenomenon can be exaggerated with injector scaling and MAF scaling. I think you can tune most of it out though.

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX View Post
Jordan: It's one of those "is what it is" things. It's not good or bad. It could be BETTER, but that's still a conversation we're having with Cobb. It's more a limiting factor of feature set in the denso ECU. Speed density cleans it right up! But I can't see people shelling out $1900 for an AEM over that.

Jeff: Personally, I don't believe in correcting numbers. But, at the end of the day, the graphs are posted up by the guys at IAG who take the raw .DRF files from the dyno computer, and then export the graphs anyway they see fit.

My personal preference is to show how the car reacted naturally at that time.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX View Post
Jeff: Personally, I don't believe in correcting numbers. But, at the end of the day, the graphs are posted up by the guys at IAG who take the raw .DRF files from the dyno computer, and then export the graphs anyway they see fit.

My personal preference is to show how the car reacted naturally at that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAG Performance View Post
As Jorge stated, we choose to show it as it is. I could go in and change all the runs to SAE correction and gain 2-6 hp on each graph in this session. I will be happy to do that if anyone wants to see any of these runs in any of the correction factors. IE: SAE, DIN, EEC, STD, or JIS.
I am way confused now because when I did SAE Correction I didn't gain HP I lost a bit.

Mine:

Uncorrected - 289.90/327.09
Corrected (SAE) - 279.02/314.81

I understand how Jorge wants to show how the car was naturally at the time but what does corrected (SAE) do?

WOW

<--- way lost

because on Sean's 07 WRX you posted a SAE Corrected Graph in the thread you guys made in the Power Bragging Rights Sub-Forum.. So I figured you guys just messed up on mine and didn't do a correction but then I saw this thread and was like hmmm... Jeff = confused
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:56 AM   #19
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... and to extrapolate on John's edification of the phenomena, a bit of a less abridged explanation of my workflow habits.

For the kids that hang out there, this will start making more sense if you think of how I chain events.

For me, everything is about the lowest common denominator.

The largest delta in throttle position is going to be the hardest on everything in top gear. So some of the first things I do is set and confirm boost dynamic in top gear throughout the rev band. It helps check for stuff like creep, as well as set a bar that I then work UNDER. Anyone can make a tune hot in 3rd or 4th, only to find they're having issues in the upper, if not top gear.

Sad to say, but for the vast majority of people who've sat in on other tuner's, honestly ask yourself how often you've seen then spend a half hour plus just setting limits in the top gear of a car?

That's why if it seems that some of my numbers are a bit more "tame", its because in the same breath you've never heard of people having failures due to gross negligence. If your car is to fail, it sure wasn't because I didn't do my due dillegence to make sure I could see and touch as many extreme situations as possible.

But, I digress.

The boost error table (which John mentions) is adjusted so that fueling is appropriate in TOP gear. There are other tables you can play with, but I'm personally not a fan of screwing up a MAF calibration table or primary fuel table, since those are directly related to each other. Frankly if the later is setup properly, tuning the former is almost a WYSIWYG approach in ANY gear... with the exception of maximum throttle delta; specifically with charge delay applications (FMIC's).

So, what it boils down to, is that dip gets worse and worse as you drop in gear, but is perfect as you climb in gear.

Vs. fixing it in the lower gears, and LEANING OUT for quite a few hundred RPM in the upper gears.

Choose the lesser of two evils? A slight rich dip for 100 RPM? Or a lean spike?

I thought you guys would agree.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com

Last edited by RiftsWRX; 11-20-2008 at 10:01 AM. Reason: spelling owns me today. :lol:
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:17 AM   #20
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Hey Jorge, how come my car doesn't have even the slightest dip in it? I've never seen this effect when tuning my car yet. Is it because I run speed density or does that not even have anything to do with it.

DK
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX View Post
Speed density cleans it right up! But I can't see people shelling out $1900 for an AEM over that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WrXtaCy2003 View Post
Hey Jorge, how come my car doesn't have even the slightest dip in it? I've never seen this effect when tuning my car yet. Is it because I run speed density or does that not even have anything to do with it.

DK


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Old 11-20-2008, 12:54 PM   #22
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Yeah that's what I thought as well before you explained that Jorge. I'd rather have a rich spike over a lean spike any day...
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:03 PM   #23
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were comparing corrected #s from denver to somewhere sea level they should be the same(all things equal) so why wouldn't you post up #s that would be repeatable from shop to shop.

Example. Shop A says its kit makes 200hp but after installing it/tuning it only makes 150hp because of it being tested at sea level but the customer is located in denver.

I'm not saying they don't make the power but where is the baseline.
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96accord View Post
Question: Why are the graph's not corrected? I noticed mine was not corrected either. I use found the Dynojet Application and corrected it to get the same correction that I see on other graphs.

Please advise why mine and these are not corrected? Just curious.

~Jeff~
Jeff,

I suggest you read the following:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...yno+correction

It is an excellent (ok, I did write it, so I am biased) look at correction factors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAG Performance View Post
As Jorge stated, we choose to show it as it is. I could go in and change all the runs to SAE correction and gain 2-6 hp on each graph in this session. I will be happy to do that if anyone wants to see any of these runs in any of the correction factors. IE: SAE, DIN, EEC, STD, or JIS.

To help make my point, if you change the first car to STD correction, the car would have "made" 445whp and 448wtq. Now that would be a but unrealistic....right? Again, every correction factor would have inflated these numbers, and as any of our customers know, that is not what we are about. What we care about is how the customer ultimately feels in the end. The truth is that if we wanted an inflated number, we would not have chosen to tune on a dyno-JET.
IAG is spot in. Remember that the corrections do not 'correct' the power readings. The readings on the dyno, uncorrected, is what your car made. The corrections are there only to facilitate comparison between different test conditions. As an example, consider the corrections at high altitude. Some dynos in Denver are set to correct 22%. This correction makes the numbers bigger, but your car does not actually make this 'corrected' power.

On top of this, the use of both SAE and STD corrections is fundamentally and mathematically incorrect in our test applications, period. Anyone who says otherwise is likely missing a good technical understanding of how corrections work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 96accord View Post
I am way confused now because when I did SAE Correction I didn't gain HP I lost a bit.

Mine:

Uncorrected - 289.90/327.09
Corrected (SAE) - 279.02/314.81

I understand how Jorge wants to show how the car was naturally at the time but what does corrected (SAE) do?
Corrections can obviously go both ways. Corrections in cold conditions with high barometric pressure will reduce the numbers from standard.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Research Calibrator
Surgeline Tuning
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuned200 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were comparing corrected #s from denver to somewhere sea level they should be the same(all things equal) so why wouldn't you post up #s that would be repeatable from shop to shop.

Example. Shop A says its kit makes 200hp but after installing it/tuning it only makes 150hp because of it being tested at sea level but the customer is located in denver.

I'm not saying they don't make the power but where is the baseline.
Your assertion about comparing numbers from denver to a ground level location are unfortunatly not true, at least not with an adaptable, boost controlled vehicle.

If a car makes 200hp at sea level then makes 150hp in Denver, it is indeed making 50 less hp. A 'correction' will not fix that. The kit may be operating correctly for the environment, but saying it makes 200whp when it does not is not correcting, but 'incorrecting'. As above, if this conversation interests you, see my lengthy thread mentioned above.

Jeff

P.S. Nice tunes Jorge!
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