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Old 11-21-2008, 10:41 AM   #1
Full-Race Geoff
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Default Twinscroll Borgwarner vs Twinscroll GT35R

This test is a little OT becuase it was done on an evo, but we will be performing the identical test on an STI in the next 2-3 weeks.

The idea behind this test was to prove if a larger (and much less expensive) non-BB turbo can outperform a smaller BB unit. After having extraordinary results with the new BorgWarner/Airwerks S300SX turbochargers, we found as good or better performance with the non BB BW turbos than from duall ball bearing Garrett GT turbos. Sean Ivey at Iveytune in NJ was very interested to find out so he graciously lent us his dyno facility and tuning prowess.

Long story short, we have a customer who purchased our T4 Twinscroll GT35R kit for his almost entirely stock daily driver evo9.

pic of his car

The only other mods on the car are cams/springs/retainers clutch and fuel mgt. The owner daily drives it on 93octane pumpgas straight, and occasionally puts c16 race gas in it to turn the boost up and make 540+whp. While he loved the powerband and performance of the car, the twinscroll garrett 3582R was not satisfying him 100%. his complaints were:

-the twinscroll gt35R spooled very fast, but at WOT in 5th gear and low rpms it would occasionally surge (and that is WITH the tial ported shroud housing)

-the powerband was great, but he wanted even quicker response and more midrange with more high boost potential for when he builds the motor next year. His cosworth M3 cams are lacking a little midrange, so anything we could do to get the lowend-midrange back was welcomed

-the extremely narrow gt35R center section sunken into a huge twinscroll housing makes getting to the water and oil lines very difficult as well as tightening the CHRA backing plate bolts can be tough.

-the low production qty twinscroll turbine housing casting is not as good quality as the other garrett gt castings and is a pain to get wrenches on

enter the BorgWarner/Airwerks S300SX 83-75 (basically their version of a twinscroll t4 35R with slightly larger turbine wheel and higher flowing compressor) This turbo has a 7 blade 60mm inducer that moves 68-69 lb/min (good to 45+ psi boost). The exducer is 83mm with the extended tip compressor design. (look at the comp maps to compare and you can see how well the extended tip works to deliver solid airflow at high boost levels) It uses a large 75mm 10 blade inconel turbine wheel (the 35R is only 68mm) in a 1.00 a/r housing modified to 3" vband. This turbo is NON-bb and non-watercooled only!

the results:

the first dyno compares this stock 2.0L mitsubishi evo 9 on 93octane pump gas at 26psi boost. The S300SX 83-75 with 1.00 a/r TH (red line) vs the garrett gt3582R 1.06 a/r twinscroll t4 (blue line).



Its pretty amazing to see that despite having a 7mm larger turbine wheel and non-ball bearing CHRA, the bw spoolup almost mimics the garrett 35R. The bw even has a slight bump in midrange tq and hp.

the 2nd dynograph shows the above car with race gas at 30psi (red line) vs the above plot of pump gas at 26psi (blue line)



The owner noted that on the street the BW feels noticeably better in and out of boost particulary the transients like between gearshifts. also now there is zero surge. it has better fitment, and is easier to work on than the ball bearing garrett center section. and best of all it sounds muuch cooler

These are non ball bearing turbos, but the development that goes into them is incredible. They have journal bearings designed to hold their speed at particular levels and offer ball bearing control and friction levels but with journal bearing durability and ease of repair. very very impressive.

As soon as this was done, we unstrapped the 35R 2.0L evo9 and sean got started tuning a customer's car. this one has a Buschur engine and our Twinscroll 4088R turbokit. Overlaying this graph on top of our 2.0L twinscroll BW testing really expemplified how well the increased displacement from 2.0 to 2.3 affects the powerband. this 3rd dyno shows the 2.3L Garrett GT40R turbo at 26psi on 93octane (GREEN LINE) vs the S300SX 83-75 with 1.00 a/r TH (red line) vs the garrett gt3582R 1.06 a/r twinscroll t4 (blue line).





the 4th dynoplot shows this same 2.3L mitsubishi evo8 with the garrett GT4088R at 26 psi on pump gas and 40psi on race gas. it made 694whp and 559tq but the injectors were running out of out fuel (only 1000cc inj) and the motor out of cam (only buschur 272s) so the run was aborted before we could make over 700. that will have to wait until next week. the car is another psycho fast street car with AC. Sean took it out todays cold weather and in 2nd gear it spun all 4 wheels instantly he had to get out of the throttle




Sean will swap in some 1200cc injectors, some big tomei cams + cam gears and then retune, but after that i am most excited to install the borgwarner 91-79 turbo (their version of a 40R).

last but not least here are a few pics of the turbos and the compressor maps overlayed for comparison sake




turbos from L to R -- TSGT40R, GT37R, BW S300SX 83-75, TS35R, BW S200SX 75-70, TS3076R











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Old 11-21-2008, 11:33 AM   #2
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Any post by geoff is always fun to read!!!
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:36 AM   #3
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holly cow! that's some serious numbers.

do you need to allow for cool down time without the water lines?
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:01 PM   #4
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thanks guys, glad you liked the post.

One thing that is VERY important on EVERY turbo (bb, non bb, watercooled or not) is to NOT do hot shutdowns. Always let your car idle for a minimum of 30-45 seconds after boosting hard.

shutting the engine off allows heat that is in the turbine wheel to travel up the shaft and into the bearing assembly. I will happily take some pics when i get back to AZ (after this round of east coast testing) to show you why this is bad for the turbo

otherwise, i have seen no other benefit to watercooling the turbo
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:08 AM   #5
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geoff-after i get my tial rotated setup tested and finished, I want to move up to a bigger twinscroll turbo setup and have been eyeing these borgwarners for about 6 months now. Are there any other good suppliers other than bullseye? Where can the turbo that you used in this test be found?

Thanks again
Kelly
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:07 AM   #6
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how does

twin scroll gt35 kit
full exhaust
fuel system
cams
springs
retainers
clutch

equal this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
almost entirely stock daily driver evo9.
almost entirely stock is sure getting stretched these days....

mutha fkca didnt change the cup holder....he's almost entirely stock
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:10 AM   #7
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and wow the turbos being compared....the gt35 vs the borg made an identical plot....but the bw is superior in everyway.....im lost.....from what i've seen the borgs are more expensive...i guess if you're trying to put together the most expensive build ever you could get a full race header and bw turbo......$3k for a fkin header....OMG.....lets see i can get a $3k header and make 30whp....or a complete gt35r kit for $3k and make +300whp....

and wow do those afr's suck ballz.......13:1,11:1,12:1,10:1, 12:1.....wtf?

and what kinda marketing ploy is this? did you guys just get in a couple truckloads of BW turbos?

nasioc

club rsx
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?p=21697234

evom
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=382716

Last edited by Phatron; 11-22-2008 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:39 AM   #8
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and what exactly is overlaying a 62 lb/min turbo's comp map over a 72 lb/min comp map supposed to tell us?

why not just overlay this over the gt35 if you wanna make it look bad/small/whatever you're trying to show

any turbo bw makes i pretty much gaurantee garrett makes a turbo with almost exactly the same comp map. BW cant make magic air pumps....

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Old 11-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
and wow the turbos being compared....the gt35 vs the borg made an identical plot....but the bw is superior in everyway.....im lost.....from what i've seen the borgs are more expensive...i guess if you're trying to put together the most expensive build ever you could get a full race header and bw turbo......$3k for a fkin header....OMG.....lets see i can get a $3k header and make 30whp....or a complete gt35r kit for $3k and make +300whp....

and wow do those afr's suck ballz.......13:1,11:1,12:1,10:1, 12:1.....wtf?

and what kinda marketing ploy is this? did you guys just get in a couple truckloads of BW turbos?

nasioc

club rsx
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?p=21697234

evom
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=382716
quote for posterity

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Old 11-22-2008, 10:36 AM   #10
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Marketing Ploy? maybe. and you are right PHATRON 3k for a header is super bucks. I will agree with one thing though, i have delt with BW turbos and i personaly like them but at the same time i like garrett turbos just as much. For somebody new to turbos I wouldnt recomend the BW turbos because they have such a range of back housing witch make it a pain in the butt if you dont know anything about turbos and back pressure. Most the people i see throw on a BW turbo and get crazy lag because they dont pay any attention to back pressure.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
BW cant make magic air pumps....
Ron, that makes you sound ignorant, and i know you are FAR from that. Everybody (garrett included) knows that even GT technology is getting dated now. BW can, and has, designed a better turbocharger. And some of this stuff is fairly new, so every tuner out there isn't making sexy time with BW turbo's yet.

In due time, garrett will main stream and dumb down their tr30r stuff and expand on that and it'll be garrett all over agin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
from what i've seen the borgs are more expensive
Really? Where?
atp 35r turbocharger pricing - This is priced cheaply as it's the price for a single scroll t3 turbine housing.
Full-Race gt35r Pricing

Full-Race 300sx 83-75 pricing

In fact, here, there is only ONE turbocharger over 1400 bucks, and it supports over 1000whp.

Don't discount the bw's so quickly. If we toss these turbos to the way side, we will be missing out on some great stuff for our community. Look at the DSM guys. Part of the reason they're going a zillion miles an hour and a half a second is because they've literally TRIED EVERYTHING, so they know what does and doesn't work. I mean, look at the Collection of holset turbo guys there are on here. I can only think of 2 off the top of my head. One (REWT) used an hx40 on his 2.0 with success. But beyond him and dukeduster, not many have even tried these turbos. So lets keep an open mind about this stuff. Trial and error guys. We can't afford to do it oursleves most of the time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't let somebody do it for us

And Phatron: I know you want proof (you always do ) So just kinda sit back and wait for the proof. Sometimes you have to do that when you're not in a position to be able to go get it yourself.

Patience grasshoppa!!

Sorry... /rant
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
and wow the turbos being compared....the gt35 vs the borg made an identical plot....but the bw is superior in everyway.....im lost.....from what i've seen the borgs are more expensive...i guess if you're trying to put together the most expensive build ever you could get a full race header and bw turbo......$3k for a fkin header....OMG.....lets see i can get a $3k header and make 30whp....or a complete gt35r kit for $3k and make +300whp....

and wow do those afr's suck ballz.......13:1,11:1,12:1,10:1, 12:1.....wtf?

and what kinda marketing ploy is this? did you guys just get in a couple truckloads of BW turbos?

nasioc

club rsx
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?p=21697234

evom
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=382716
Quoted for the ignorance. Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:02 PM   #13
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well....i guess thats how ignorance is defined right? i said "from what i've seen" about the cost.....it was for one of the bw200's...it was several hundres (~$400) more than the comparable garrett unit.

the rest of that post is fact
$3k for their header
the afrs were all over the place
they posted the same thing in several different car forums....thats marketing.
the gt4094 has a comp map that is way more comparable to the BW
And all those parts dont equal "almost entirely stock"

while it is impressive to show a non-bb 72 lb/min turbo spooling the same as a 62 lb/min turbo its still a weird comparision to post on a subie forum.....since it in no way reflects what the comparos gonna look like on an EJ motor....

while i agree that i dont always say things or convey my thoughts in the nicest way.....99% of my above 3 posts are pure fact.

what can you argue? That BW CAN make magic air pumps? Have you seen multiple results on a ej motor to prove otherwise? The results i saw show 10-15 whp gains with a BW.....to me it wasnt very cost effective....to take out a $1400 turbo and put in a $1800 turbo for 15 whp.....i guess to some it may be.

and yes, maybe i am the one forming my opinion too early......but there have been a lot of hyped up turbos over the years......and it should be pretty obvious by now that im skeptical and dont believe chit until i see a log

Last edited by Phatron; 11-22-2008 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:18 PM   #14
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lol, phatrons comments almost always hold water with me but i have seen multiple threads now on BW turbos where he is just going out of his way to try and discredit these turbos by any little tidbit he can find on the intraweb.

Phatron, if you really want to prove a point, buy one, test it, blow it, post it, flame it, move on.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo_Blyat View Post
lol, phatrons comments almost always hold water with me but i have seen multiple threads now on BW turbos where he is just going out of his way to try and discredit these turbos by any little tidbit he can find on the intraweb.

Phatron, if you really want to prove a point, buy one, test it, blow it, post it, flame it, move on.
Oh ****, I have to quote this


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Old 11-22-2008, 03:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
well....i guess thats how ignorance is defined right? i said "from what i've seen" about the cost.....it was for one of the bw200's...it was several hundres (~$400) more than the comparable garrett unit.

Well, either it was a BEP borg turbo or maybe it was old pricing. Or maybe you got your prices cris crossed?
BW 30r equivilant (s200)

Garrett gt30r
The 30r is about $176 more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
while it is impressive to show a non-bb 72 lb/min turbo spooling the same as a 62 lb/min turbo its still a weird comparision to post on a subie forum.....since it in no way reflects what the comparos gonna look like on an EJ motor....
True, but compressor and turbine efficiency are NOT going to change by putting it on an ej engine. x flow at y p/r no matter if its on an ej, a 4g63, a 2jzgte, an ls7 or a olds 455. Certain turbos are better matched to certain engines for sure, but thats why manufacturers make several different flavors and give you hotside options etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
what can you argue? That BW CAN make magic air pumps? Have you seen multiple results on a ej motor to prove otherwise? The results i saw show 10-15 whp gains with a BW.....to me it wasnt very cost effective....to take out a $1400 turbo and put in a $1800 turbo for 15 whp.....i guess to some it may be.
I didn't say they made magic air pumps, you did . I said they made a more efficient turbo charger. No i haven't seen multiple ej results, but like i said, and tuners and enthusiasts haven't exactly jumped all over these turbos as of yet, but more and more are popping up. Like i said, patience.

And as far as price goes, It's VERY cost effective if you just start with the less expensive borg turbo, and i don't know where you're doing your shopping, but i already gave you some price comparo's that shoot that argument down (twice now...).
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:52 PM   #17
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settle down guys....jeez.

i can show my green outspooling a 20g.....what does it prove though? it doesnt stop people from buying 20g's. every turbo has its place and its appeal to certain people.

and while a huge freaking comp map that goes up to PR's of 5.0 is pretty......how many people in the world are gonna run 50psi on an EJ motor?

dont get your panties in a bunch....

dont you wanna wait for the tests on an EJ motor with OUR VE's and PR's before you proclaim this as the greatest thing since widemouth beer cans?

im just saying the BW turbos are gonna fill slots somewhere in the order of things....not put garrett outta business

16g
18g
20g
3071 / dom1
green / sz49 / dom2 / dom3
3076 / gt52
sz55
hta green
red
gt35
gt40
etc
etc
etc

Last edited by Phatron; 11-22-2008 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post


settle down guys....jeez.

i can show my green outspooling a 20g.....what does it prove though? it doesnt stop people from buying 20g's. every turbo has its place and its appeal to certain people.

and while a huge freaking comp map that goes up to PR's of 5.0 is pretty......how many people in the world are gonna run 50psi on an EJ motor?

dont get your panties in a bunch....

dont you wanna wait for the tests on an EJ motor with OUR VE's and PR's before you proclaim this as the greatest thing since widemouth beer cans?

im just saying the BW turbos are gonna fill slots somewhere in the order of things....not put garrett outta business

16g
18g
20g
3071 / dom1
green / sz49 / dom2 / dom3
3076 / gt52
sz55
hta green
red
gt35
gt40
etc
etc
etc


Widemouth beer cans
How long have you guys had those?
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Old 11-23-2008, 01:39 AM   #19
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Borg warner's are the cheaper alternative! Find me one site that has a gt4088r or 4094r that is anywhere comparable to the bw s300 91-79 price wise. The garrett unit is $500 more. I think you may be looking at the prices wrong. I have yet to see any bw units that cost more than the comparable gt turbo.

I will be putting the s300 91-79 on my car within the next few months and the numbers will speak for themselves.

In no way do I think Fullrace is trying to pump these turbos up as Garrett turbo killers. I think rather just showing some results to try and show alternatives to the garrett units. If you look, fullrace sells garrett as well. They also seem to really like these turbo's. I have talked to Jeff personally and he has nothing but good things to say about the 4088r. If I recall correctly it is one of his favorite turbo options?

Try to keep an open mind.... There are plenty of good products out there! Borg Warner making some of those. Also before I forget what in the hell does the price of the fullrace manifold have to do with borg warner turbo's. You seem to be a fullrace hater??? Its thoughts like these and people with opinions like these that make this community so hard to tap into for companies making quality race parts. Full race makes beautiful products I wish I could afford them but I cant. If I ever have an extra 2k sitting around I will buy a fullrace manifold.
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:16 AM   #20
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the price of the manifold was just shocking thats all.

i dont hate full race or bw....both seem like excellent products. FR stuff is just uber expensive....almost 5x the price of other manifolds. And the BW data above isnt on a subie...so meh.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
the price of the manifold was just shocking thats all.

i dont hate full race or bw....both seem like excellent products. FR stuff is just uber expensive....almost 5x the price of other manifolds. And the BW data above isnt on a subie...so meh.
True, so lets wait for myself and others to start putting bw turbos to the test. Fullrace is expensive.... It seems to me that if they were to lower the price of their manifolds to compete with the competition they would sell 10 times as many. Like I said there is no way in heck I can afford to put their products on my car!
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post


settle down guys....jeez.
I'm not getting ruffled here, i'm just trying to keep you from discounting these turbos as quickly as it seemed you where.

I wantto see you use one of these and let us know what it can and can't do, as you as an enthusiast have done as much as guys like micah, larry, adrian, uncle scotty and tms have for our community.
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:39 PM   #23
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a lot of my comments werent about the turbo though....

as far as i know bw doesnt make any stock location turbos, right?

and my questioning is to try and get some real answers....not just comparing dyno plots. comparing two different turbos with vastly different comp maps doesnt really tell the whole story. a gt35 and one of these bw turbos operate at peak efficiencies at very different PR's.
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:40 PM   #24
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Wake up people. Profit margins drive business and marketing.

Obviously FR has an agenda like all businesses. Their customer base surely has the means to spend an extra $200-$500 on a proven turbo when they're already spending $3k on their exhaust manifold. So why push the cheaper turbo on multiple sites?


In any case, it's good to get this information out and available in these types of threads but let's never forget why vendors post such threads.
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:53 PM   #25
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how are the evos setup with regards to load and how timing is determined?

i mean if i put a td04 on my car and then put a green on my car and run them both at 16 psi, im not gonna be running the same AFR or timing due to the load differences. does the evo work the same way?
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