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Old 06-12-2009, 02:16 PM   #76
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I spoke to another guy at FR and he recommended the 40R over the 91-79 as a better turbo?? Price not-withstanding..
I think Geoff is trying to say for price value the Borg is a better deal. When the performance of the Borg and the Garrett unit being similiar who is better becomes very subjective and based on personal opion. Either way twinscroll equals winner.
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Old 06-12-2009, 05:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by tino View Post
I spoke to another guy at FR and he recommended the 40R over the 91-79 as a better turbo?? Price not-withstanding..
the big advantage the 40R has right now is that we have a LOT of testing time on it, and know exactly how it will respond, and what setup to use. You can put the car together the first time and make lots of power without haveing to change anything. Also, there are 3 different 40R turbine housings to choose from, depending on the application (boost level used and fuel). The 91-79 is a fantastic turbo by all accounts, however we dont yet have nearly enough hours of testing with them, and they are only available in 1 size turbine housing at this time (not to mention they take 6-8 weeks to arrive, whereas we have the 40Rs ready to ship). I love both turbos, they have their pros/cons just like everything else

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Originally Posted by ASU View Post
Either way twinscroll equals winner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
I'll post them up and shoot them over to you next week. I'd do it sooner, but I'm actually going to be in Phoenix tomorrow for a mini vacation. I'll give you a call when I get in
cool give me a call!
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Old 06-12-2009, 08:26 PM   #78
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yes, the wheel aero found on the FP HTA turbos is very similar to the BW units in that they both have extended tipped 7 blade compressor wheels with a conservative inducer:exducer ratio (trim). The extended tip has a huge effect on delivering stable airflow at elevated boost levels, so if you compare a BW or HTA to a garrett at over 28 psi, thats when the differences and benefits of the extended tip compressors really start to shine. at 15-20psi its not a big diff of extended tip vs std tip

whether a BB center section offers any real performance benefit is still up for debate... the cosworth guys i spoke with seemed to think BB is BS... the BW guys did have a prototype BB chra in development but my understanding is that the miniscule performance gains were not worth the increase in cost, more complex/expensive rebuild procedure, and it may never become a production turbo. who knows what the future holds, but BW is serious about turbos and if they deem the BB chra top be worthwhile, it could possibly reach production.
I talked to fp the other day and they say it's different technology than the extended tip BW. Maybe they want to portray their design as unique. Also I've been reading some threads that the HTA upgrade is all fluff. Clark says some of the one's he's tuned actually spooled slower and less power. Have you tuned any of the HTA gt35rs?
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Old 06-13-2009, 10:24 AM   #79
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It is forced performance so buyer beware.
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:10 AM   #80
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I talked to fp the other day and they say it's different technology than the extended tip BW. Maybe they want to portray their design as unique. Also I've been reading some threads that the HTA upgrade is all fluff. Clark says some of the one's he's tuned actually spooled slower and less power. Have you tuned any of the HTA gt35rs?
yes they are different !!

the FP comp wheels are tailored specifically to maximize the GT35R turbine wheel (which is a good turbine wheel).

The BW comp wheels are tailored specifically to maximize their respective BW turbine wheels (VERY good turbine wheels also).

there are certainly going to be differences in the aero, hub diameter, etc (due to simple differences in the turbochargers) but you can clearly see both wheels have the "extended tip" or "long trailing edge" at the OD, 7 blades 7 splitters, a portd shroud inlet, similar trim sizes... maybe ill take some pics for you this week but the similarities are greater than the differences IMHO

some hta turbos have worked well, others have worked poorly. there is no doubt its a good compressor wheel, but there are many other factors which lead to the overall system working exceptionally well or dismally. In my experience the most critical component in improving a turbocharged engine's performance is to increase turbine efficiency -- and the only way i know to do that is through the header, turbine hsg and turbine wheel. Many people stick these HTA comp wheels into setups with poor turbine efficiency and get a shoddy result -- no surprise there
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:48 PM   #81
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So a ts gt35r 1.06 a/r hot side with HTA wheel/comp housing upgrade ts header, uppipe, dual mv-s 38mm should do pretty well on my sti 100mm cp pistons, light porting from the bowl to the seat, bc 272 cams, upgraded valve train, 850cc inj., with meth inj.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:52 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
yes they are different !!

the FP comp wheels are tailored specifically to maximize the GT35R turbine wheel (which is a good turbine wheel).

The BW comp wheels are tailored specifically to maximize their respective BW turbine wheels (VERY good turbine wheels also).

there are certainly going to be differences in the aero, hub diameter, etc (due to simple differences in the turbochargers) but you can clearly see both wheels have the "extended tip" or "long trailing edge" at the OD, 7 blades 7 splitters, a portd shroud inlet, similar trim sizes... maybe ill take some pics for you this week but the similarities are greater than the differences IMHO

some hta turbos have worked well, others have worked poorly. there is no doubt its a good compressor wheel, but there are many other factors which lead to the overall system working exceptionally well or dismally. In my experience the most critical component in improving a turbocharged engine's performance is to increase turbine efficiency -- and the only way i know to do that is through the header, turbine hsg and turbine wheel. Many people stick these HTA comp wheels into setups with poor turbine efficiency and get a shoddy result -- no surprise there
Geoff could you take the pics to show the differences between the standard gt35r comp wheel and a gt35r hta wheel, including a profile shot of the width?
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:38 AM   #83
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updates?
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:26 PM   #84
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sorry i missed this thread. the yimi guys are waiting for the dual avcs cams to be ready to continue their testing for us. i dont have any hta turbos in the shop right now, but will happily get you some detailed photos shortly of their billet compressor wheels

here is another back-to-back comparison we just finished of the borgwarner 83-75 1.00 a/r on a twinscroll 2JZ vs a garrett 60-1/ptrim twinscroll .84 a/r. the customer was very pleased and the tuner (SP engineering a pretty well regarded shop, just not for subies) was blown away. The 60-1 is a popular "response" turbo for the supras so the bw walking all over it made a lot of believers

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Old 12-02-2009, 12:58 PM   #85
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i am getting ready to have a bw turbo built for my car i will let you know how it runs on a built motor i am hoping to get close to 500 but it will be a few months before i post it on here
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:22 PM   #86
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be careful before you buy it -- make 100% certain that it is a genuine borgwarner turbocharger
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:58 PM   #87
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Geoff, any subaru specific dyno charts/logs available yet? Would love to see with my own eyes how advantageous twinscroll is over singlescroll, and also B/W vs 35r at high boost levels. thanks!
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:00 PM   #88
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be careful before you buy it -- make 100% certain that it is a genuine borgwarner turbocharger
What are the signs of a genuine or fake BW turbo?
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:03 PM   #89
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We will be doing some testing on the BW. I am very curious about the differing turbine designs. As you know we work closely with FP, so we have that as our 'standard'. The car will be our 08STI with an HTA 3082(FP). The company that makes our GTR turbos really thinks he has a BW type turbo that will out perform the Garrett style turbos...even HTA technology. I do want to go twin scroll, so we are looking at the actual data from the two test units before next season. I think there is some very good data here and I think we can add to the discussion very soon. Good stuff Geoff.

John
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:18 PM   #90
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*Raises hand* currently running a Borg Warner S256 Rotated Kit (non twin scroll) by Sargent Power and Performance. They also have a S300 monster on a STI, and another S256 kit on a 05 STI. My turbo spools as quick as, and is slightly bigger than a comparable BB GT30r. It was cheaper than a GT30r. I made 380whp and 386wtq at about 21psi on 93 pump and it was 101*F inside dyno room. Stopped there because i am on stock hybrid block.

These are some good turbos that not many are running. BTW they sound freakin awesome.

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Old 12-02-2009, 11:07 PM   #91
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What are the signs of a genuine or fake BW turbo?
This is the pre-release 2010 Borg Warner Airwerks catalog (there are some type-o's since its the pre-release, we are going to post the edited/updated version once its available). The main thing to realize is that there are (2) completely seperate companies that the aftermarket world has somehow confused as being one entity -- BorgWarner vs BullseyePower. Borgwarner has been around forever, heck the indy500 trophy is a borgwarner... whereas Bullseye is a company that takes Borgwarner parts and frankensteins them together with their own castings... to compound this confusion further, china made knockoffs of both are on ebay.

Legitimate Borg Warner turbochargers for racing applications are dubbed 'Airwerks' and really all you need to see is the genuine BorgWarner tag on the turbos center section -- all the borgwarners have this, none of the knockoffs do (bullseye say bullseye).

Bullseye has been having a hard time with some of their turbos and customers lately, since the former headguy over there left -- http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2689184

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*Raises hand* currently running a Borg Warner..These are some good turbos that not many are running. BTW they sound freakin awesome.
i am in full agreement, these are fantastic turbos at a great value, and the sound their compressors make are just sweeet... best sounding turbos ive ever had on my cars. Keep in mind, your S256 is actually a borgwarner S200 (if you care to look it up on the 2010 Borgwarner airwerks catalog) but using a bullseys t3 undivided turbine housing .70 a/r

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Originally Posted by AkumaMotorsports View Post
We will be doing some testing on the BW. I am very curious about the differing turbine designs. As you know we work closely with FP, so we have that as our 'standard'. The car will be our 08STI with an HTA 3082(FP). The company that makes our GTR turbos really thinks he has a BW type turbo that will out perform the Garrett style turbos...even HTA technology. I do want to go twin scroll, so we are looking at the actual data from the two test units before next season. I think there is some very good data here and I think we can add to the discussion very soon. Good stuff Geoff
thanks john, it will be interesting to see what you come up with, i have a few designs i think could top that 3082 turbo (ive never been impressed with the 82mm compressor on the 30R turbine... just too far of a mismatch imho)

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Originally Posted by flwrx View Post
Geoff, any subaru specific dyno charts/logs available yet? Would love to see with my own eyes how advantageous twinscroll is over singlescroll, and also B/W vs 35r at high boost levels. thanks!
i have to admit we havent really been working on testing with teh subarus lately, but that should change coming up, we have philthy;'s twinscroll t4 running great and paul at yimi will be installing his kit fresh motor and twinscroll kit, both cars will have plenty of borgwarners swapped on and off for solid data
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:19 PM   #92
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i have to admit we havent really been working on testing with teh subarus lately, but that should change coming up, we have philthy;'s twinscroll t4 running great and paul at yimi will be installing his kit fresh motor and twinscroll kit, both cars will have plenty of borgwarners swapped on and off for solid data
Can't wait to see the results!! ... Lets see some 83-75 data and some 91-79 data on subarus if possible....
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:54 PM   #93
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Full-Race TS BW 83-75 going on our 08 STI shop car (sleeved 2.5L shortblock, cammed and CNC ported heads) when we get the cams from Kelford in a couple weeks. My LGT (built shortblock, cammed and mildly hand ported heads) is getting a Full-Race TS BW S200X 75-70 when I can find enough time to actually work on my own car

We have run both the BW S300 83-75 and a Garrett GT35R on the 08 STI with excellent results. The BW made about 10-15 whp more, the GT35R made a bit more power on spool but they both hit torque peak at the same point. Overall I prefer the BW even without factoring in price. Since we ran the BW with the 1.10 A/R turbine housing I think that the very slight deficit in spool as compared to the GT35R will disappear with a slightly smaller turbine housing. I'm hopeful that the advantage up top will remain.

I'm very curious to see what the S200X does on my car. I'm expecting something like GT30R spool with near GT35R peak power... well at least that's what I'd like to see
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:15 AM   #94
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I cant wait to feel the Borgwarner 83-75 with the 1.00 on my car!
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:52 AM   #95
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Yup you are correct i am on a t3 housing, but i have .63 ar and 57lb/m....plenty for me on this block and at the same time i am no where near maxing this turbo out on my stock block. I can't wait till i put it on a built block and bring it to life, such awesome midrange and good topend also. Can you summarize big difference between Airwerks BW's and other BW's ie from Bullseye and AGP, other than twin scroll?

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Old 12-03-2009, 11:52 AM   #96
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I can't wait for Garrett to release their full line of new compressors (only 40R now). Then hopefully we will have a Garrett bb TS that competes with the BW.
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:43 PM   #97
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I can't wait for Garrett to release their full line of new compressors (only 40R now). Then hopefully we will have a Garrett bb TS that competes with the BW.
Not $ wise though, also repairing a bw is much cheaper too... I am waiting to see the garretts but I think they just are expensive turbos that finally caught up with todays technology, not any better than what's already offered. We will see though I may be wrong!
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:49 PM   #98
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Im having a hard time understanding how two turbos so different in their entire composition are producing back to back tq curves that look identical.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:32 PM   #99
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^^ thats y the comparo is impressive. Cause the non-ball bearing BW with a larger turbine is spooling the same as a Ball Bearing gt35 with smaller turbine.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:43 PM   #100
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^^ thats y the comparo is impressive. Cause the non-ball bearing BW with a larger turbine is spooling the same as a Ball Bearing gt35 with smaller turbine.
bb don't make any difference on boost threshold, you know that. It only matters on response, which is not going to show up on a dyno chart.

Garrett has been using old school compressors for years, I think with their new wheels they will be catching up.
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