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Old 12-03-2009, 10:32 PM   #101
nacho6706
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What do you think of Full Race's TS Gen 2 kit with a BW sX200 w/1.22 hotside, is it too small for the 2.5 L , I want instant throttle response.
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:09 PM   #102
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I was just thinking about the same setup ^^^^^ yesterday.

1 thing I know for sure is that the thier t4 housings need to be gasket-match ported because they are NOT stock.

I have a 2.5 sti and too want to know is the 1.22 housing best matched to the ej257? I will be running 2 ewg, boost 1.3-1.4 bar.
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:22 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by nacho6706 View Post
What do you think of Full Race's TS Gen 2 kit with a BW sX200 w/1.22 hotside, is it too small for the 2.5 L , I want instant throttle response.
I've always wondered as well. I really don't see why it would be too small - that would be like saying a 20g is too small. Everyone seems to go with a 35r/equivalent or bigger turbo with this kit. My guess is people probably don't think it's worth it to go with a smaller turbo when paying a premium for this kit. I still think it would be a good setup.
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:40 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by nacho6706 View Post
What do you think of Full Race's TS Gen 2 kit with a BW sX200 w/1.22 hotside, is it too small for the 2.5 L , I want instant throttle response.
why would you ask if its too small if you want instant throttle response?

shouldnt you be asking if its too big?

they're 55-60 lb/min turbos.....

http://www.bullseyepower.com/S200.asp
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Old 12-10-2009, 07:15 PM   #105
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^bullseye is different from Borg Warner
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:56 PM   #106
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Pretty sure those are bw turbos, read the page

"Proud to be the leading Borg Warner Performance distributor in the US.
Your number one source for custom Borg Warner Performance turbochargers.
Over 300 performance turbos in stock for fast delivery."

Last edited by Phatron; 12-10-2009 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:02 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
This is the pre-release 2010 Borg Warner Airwerks catalog (there are some type-o's since its the pre-release, we are going to post the edited/updated version once its available). The main thing to realize is that there are (2) completely seperate companies that the aftermarket world has somehow confused as being one entity -- BorgWarner vs BullseyePower. Borgwarner has been around forever, heck the indy500 trophy is a borgwarner... whereas Bullseye is a company that takes Borgwarner parts and frankensteins them together with their own castings... to compound this confusion further, china made knockoffs of both are on ebay.

Legitimate Borg Warner turbochargers for racing applications are dubbed 'Airwerks' and really all you need to see is the genuine BorgWarner tag on the turbos center section -- all the borgwarners have this, none of the knockoffs do (bullseye say bullseye).

Bullseye has been having a hard time with some of their turbos and customers lately, since the former headguy over there left -- http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2689184

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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
why would you ask if its too small if you want instant throttle response?

shouldnt you be asking if its too big?

they're 55-60 lb/min turbos.....

http://www.bullseyepower.com/S200.asp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Pretty sure those are bw turbos, read the page

"Proud to be the leading Borg Warner Performance distributor in the US.
Your number one source for custom Borg Warner Performance turbochargers.
Over 300 performance turbos in stock for fast delivery."


There you go Ron....
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:27 PM   #108
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ok....so they're BW based turbos

same thing every turbo vendor on the planet does with garrett turbos.....
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:23 PM   #109
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ok....so they're BW based turbos

same thing every turbo vendor on the planet does with garrett turbos.....
Ron, That's exactly right. Just like Precison uses their own castings with Garrett cores, Bullseye uses their own castings with BW cores.

If you remember back in the late 80s/ early 90s, all the guys I knew running turbos said not to get a Precision turbo, that you needed a "true Garrett". They thought and had experience to back it up, that the Precison turbos at the time were not equal to the Garretts. I don't know anyone that would argue today that Precision turbos are not equal to the Garretts, but it seemed pretty common back then (It's probably the opposite today with the Precision castings being more popular with the performance crowd than the original Garretts). I imagine the same thing is going on today with BW and Bullseye. The guys I know that have used both say to avoid the Bullseyes. Give them some time and they may end up surpassing the originals, just as Precision has done.
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:41 PM   #110
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I don't understand how they can screw up the castings, I mean how hard is it to make a mold of bw castings and copy em
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:40 AM   #111
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Why not buy a "true" borg warner airwerks they are cheap enough as it is...imo
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:27 AM   #112
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i just didnt know.

seems like BW letting them getting away with murder with those advertisements on their site.

says they sell the Airwerks line too....oh well. guess u cant trust anything nowdays.
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Old 12-12-2009, 07:46 PM   #113
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for christ sake can someone actually make any conclusions on this setup
the t4 s200 70-75 in 1.22AR for maximum power and response on the ej257.
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:26 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by STi*guy.kiev View Post
for christ sake can someone actually make any conclusions on this setup
the t4 s200 70-75 in 1.22AR for maximum power and response on the ej257.
calm down, man. It's not a good question that you are asking.

"maximum power?" -- be more concise with this statement. Max power for 50 psi? No. Max power on a stock ej257? No, not that either.

I think the turbo that you describe above would be great for a guy with a built ej257, and that had plans to run race/good gas in it. It would have the potential to make over 600hp, and would still have a low boost threshold. It will want to see a high pressure ratio though, imo. Back down the housng size and/or A/R if it's more of a pump gas car, and your goals are between 500-600 hp.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:30 AM   #115
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here is a side-by-side pic of the 83-75 turbine wheel (heat cycled shaft) vs the more advanced aero 88-75 turbine wheel (with the shiny shaft) this is my favorite turbo at the moment. IMHO this particular Airwerks 88-75 turbo has the most refined wheel aero (both turbine and compressor) & best housing design of any externally wastegated turbo im aware of ever being released to the aftermarket from any manufacturers





the red circles highlight the subtle difference in blade aero, and you can see the flat blade of the 83-75 vs the 88-75 leading edge airfoil and reall smooth blade contour

Since there is some confusion about genuine BorgWarner Airwerks turbochargers - the S300SX and S400SX are 'Airwerks' units and that is ONLY what Full-Race uses and stands behind. There is a completely different company called 'bullseye power' they have S366, S258, etc these turbos are bullsye's own versions of the BW S300SX's but instead use whack wheel combinations, screwed up matching ie S366's cut down turbine wheels from 79.8mm to 76mm in order to fit their bullseye T3 housings (since most of their customers buy T3 turbos). IMO these turbos should be run as T4s and the 79.8mm turbines should not be changed! its an incredible wheel design, and perfect match to the 66.7mm/91mm compressor. i can post some closeup pics of this in the next couple of days...

the BW nomenclature breaks down as;

S300SX = T4 Twinscroll or T4 Singlescroll .88 a/r same as 40R/twinscroll 35R/twinscroll 37R/T04Z

S400SX = T4 Twinscroll OR T6 Twinscroll (like how the 42R and 45R are available in T4 or T6 divided)
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:48 AM   #116
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Nice pics lets see the Subaru 83-75/88-75/91-79 dyno testing I am drooling right now , geoff you make me wonder if I should go 88-75 instead of 91-79 .... I need to see some Subaru bw data so I can make an educated decision...
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:52 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
Nice pics lets see the Subaru 83-75/88-75/91-79 dyno testing I am drooling right now , geoff you make me wonder if I should go 88-75 instead of 91-79 .... I need to see some Subaru bw data so I can make an educated decision...
What kind of driving are you going to be doing with this car?

I love my 83/75 .91AR housing isn't bad at 28-29psi.
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:42 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
What kind of driving are you going to be doing with this car?

I love my 83/75 .91AR housing isn't bad at 28-29psi.

Yes you do make good power with that setup, I think that dyno you were using Are you able to get me any logs of RPM, PSI and TIME(Time in millseconds or whatever against RPM and I can do an Airboy for you because I bet you put more power down on airboy VS that dyno you were tuned on...) yet alcoolaid? something like 4th gear start from 2,000- 2,500 rpm and go wot untill 7000 rpm, if you could do a couple that would be fantastic!!

I am going to be bringing it to the 1/4 mile, I'm going to be going at it from 30-50mph rolls up, and I am going to be driving it around the streets when the sun shines/its dry... Basically it will be on the streets whenever possible but not my DD or anything , It will be just for fun ....

I have 9.5:1 compression and I run E85 so I will be able to spool it a hair quicker too... Geoff does the 91-79 have an advanced looking turbine wheel, any pics of that too?

Last edited by TDagen; 12-19-2009 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:49 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
here is a side-by-side pic of the 83-75 turbine wheel (heat cycled shaft) vs the more advanced aero 88-75 turbine wheel (with the shiny shaft) this is my favorite turbo at the moment. IMHO this particular Airwerks 88-75 turbo has the most refined wheel aero (both turbine and compressor) & best housing design of any externally wastegated turbo im aware of ever being released to the aftermarket from any manufacturers





the red circles highlight the subtle difference in blade aero, and you can see the flat blade of the 83-75 vs the 88-75 leading edge airfoil and reall smooth blade contour

Since there is some confusion about genuine BorgWarner Airwerks turbochargers - the S300SX and S400SX are 'Airwerks' units and that is ONLY what Full-Race uses and stands behind. There is a completely different company called 'bullseye power' they have S366, S258, etc these turbos are bullsye's own versions of the BW S300SX's but instead use whack wheel combinations, screwed up matching ie S366's cut down turbine wheels from 79.8mm to 76mm in order to fit their bullseye T3 housings (since most of their customers buy T3 turbos). IMO these turbos should be run as T4s and the 79.8mm turbines should not be changed! its an incredible wheel design, and perfect match to the 66.7mm/91mm compressor. i can post some closeup pics of this in the next couple of days...

the BW nomenclature breaks down as;

S300SX = T4 Twinscroll or T4 Singlescroll .88 a/r same as 40R/twinscroll 35R/twinscroll 37R/T04Z

S400SX = T4 Twinscroll OR T6 Twinscroll (like how the 42R and 45R are available in T4 or T6 divided)
So bullseye power = crappy T3 turbos
I always tough BorgWarner Airwerks = Bullseye power

So, what is the website for BorgWarner Airwerks turbos?
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #120
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I dunno what their site is but here is a look at their 2010 AIRWERKS catalog http://www.full-race.com/articles/bo...airwerks-2010/ link is from the FULL-RACE website...
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:17 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
So bullseye power = crappy T3 turbos
I always tough BorgWarner Airwerks = Bullseye power

So, what is the website for BorgWarner Airwerks turbos?
nope.
airwerks is the performance division of borgwarner. bullseye is a company the buys and mods borg turbos and has allot of there own castings and combos of different borg turbos
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:15 PM   #122
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^^^

yes. Kind of like if you go to Garrett's page; you won't see listing for "t3/t4" turbos--that's something that aftermarket companies do [think: Turbonetics] to try and take turbos for diesel apps (which basically all this stuff is) and make them more usable for small disp. gas motors. Same as bullseye - take a beefy compressor wheel and stuff it into a smaller turbine housing w. a smaller turbine wheel.

If you do enough research on here, you'll quickly learn that ej25's like larger than normal turbine housings for their given displacement. However, I think some people take the "bigger is better" theory on turbine housings/wheels a little bit too far. Yes, a little larger housing/wheel combo has its merits on an ej25, but keep in mind that the key job of these parts is to power the compressor to a given flow rate. If your setup/driving will never/rarely see a given flow rate, the large turbine parts end up being a detriment to the "area under the curve."

with the above said, my experience with the BW stuff (not Bullseye...true BW part numbers) is that the turbines always have enough oomph to reach most desired pressure ratios for a an ej25 (remember: these are diesel turbos where stratospheric boost pressures are the norm....and probably why Bullseye probably started making its own housings in the first place), and there is a logical balance between their compressor and turbine sections (something that Jeff regularly points out, and with good reason).

bottom line: don't *grossly* oversize the hot side (ESPECIALLY if you plan on keeping boost under 30 psi regularly; it's just not necessary), and you'll be a happy camper.

Last edited by garagedefeat; 12-20-2009 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:44 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
here is a side-by-side pic of the 83-75 turbine wheel (heat cycled shaft) vs the more advanced aero 88-75 turbine wheel (with the shiny shaft) this is my favorite turbo at the moment. IMHO this particular Airwerks 88-75 turbo has the most refined wheel aero (both turbine and compressor) & best housing design of any externally wastegated turbo im aware of ever being released to the aftermarket from any manufacturers

the red circles highlight the subtle difference in blade aero, and you can see the flat blade of the 83-75 vs the 88-75 leading edge airfoil and reall smooth blade contour



Turbine wheel from a GT3782 AVNT.










I have not had other Garrett turbos apart, but this unit seems to have relatively advanced aerodynamics.


The inducer is wide considering the VNT nature of the turbo and the nine vanes that adjust the nozzle.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:23 PM   #124
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Turbine wheel from a GT3782 AVNT.




I have not had other Garrett turbos apart, but this unit seems to have relatively advanced aerodynamics.
thanks for posting that up, it is one of the only garrett turbine wheels to have modern aero. none of the GT turbos have this, which is why we've been pushing to get the new generation wheels released (probably wont happen for 2-3 years from now unfortunately).

Quote:
Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
if you go to Garrett's page; you won't see listing for "t3/t4" turbos--that's something that aftermarket companies do to try and take turbos for diesel apps (which basically all this stuff is) and make them more usable for small disp. gas motors. Same as bullseye - take a beefy compressor wheel and stuff it into a smaller turbine housing w. a smaller turbine wheel.
the t3/t4 turbos are garrett turbos (they come from garrett, in garrett boxes), just not listed on their website.

by using a mistmatch combination (big compressor w/ small turbine) it works OK for a singlescroll but terrible on a twinscroll. the mismatch hurts turbine efficiency and the singlescroll can mask this but twinscroll can not. moral of story : dont use mismatch turbos, they suck
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:30 PM   #125
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thanks for posting that up, it is one of the only garrett turbine wheels to have modern aero. none of the GT turbos have this, which is why we've been pushing to get the new generation wheels released (probably wont happen for 2-3 years from now unfortunately).
you should call ATP and tell them to take there Garret GTX-R turbo ad down.....
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