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Old 11-23-2008, 02:26 PM   #1
Cobb Tuning
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Default E85 with the 16G + 2007 WRX

I thought it might be interesting to post up a 2007 WRX 16G tune from last week using E85. The 16g is a great upgrade for the 2.5L WRX guys, and on 92 octane pump fuel we usually see 290-310whp in a street setup. Spoolup is usually comparable to the VF39/43s, and the addition of larger injectors (850cc Deastchworks) and a fuel pump bring the car on par if not a bit above the usual stage 2 STI. This particular WRX had a Perrin TMIC, Injectors, Fuel Pump, and the DW injectors.

Since E85 is available at the pump in a few locations around here, I thought it would be good to do a small comparison.
Here are the dyno results from the pump fuel tune and the E85 tune:



As you would expect when you run the higher octane fuels, more boost equates to more torque and power. Crossing to 350 lb-ft of torque at 3250rpm makes for a snappy ride. Peak HP rose from 304whp to 336whp with a bump of about 2psi of boost. On our dyno 336whp is pretty amazing for a 16G.

Let's take a look at the boost difference:




Midrange boost in the E85 tune was ~2psi higher, but if you look at the range above 6000, the boost levels off as the turbo gets near the edge of the compressor map. Consider that at 6500 rpm the boost is nearly identical, but the hp is nearly 25whp more on E85. That is your mixture of higher octane and oxygenated fuel. Boost for E85 peaks at 20psi, then rolls down to 17.5psi at redline. Pump fuel boost is about 18.5 psi down to 17.5 at redline.

Timing has the reverse profile from the boost for the most part:



You can see the E85 tune has lower timing during most of the run primarily due to the higher boost pressure. While the burn rate of E85 has a greater variance with AFR, the timing numbers are typically similar to the pump fuel, with a slight bit of advance at higher loads. Looking at the above plot you can see the advance numbers come into line at higher RPMs as the boost levels merge. Adding more timing didn't net significant gains in torque, so keeping them near their pump fuel equivalents is prudent.

Jumping to E85 does require more fuel volume, as you can see in the graph below:




Notice that the pump fuel tune ramped the injector duty cycle to a peak of 74%, while the E85 tune peaked at 91%. Across the whole tune duty cycles were about 22% higher, which is the typical amount of scaling I would use when going from pump fuel the E85. The AFRs on this chart are Gasoline equivalent AFRs, the E85 numbers represent what you would see on and AFR meter calibrated for gasoline.

Taking a closer look at the E85 AFR, here is the AFR corrected:




The correct AFRs show the ratio running very close to 8:1. Max power lean for E85 is typically ~8.4:1 and max power rich is ~6.9:1. This falls about in the middle, with a bit of bias towards max power lean. On the 2.5L platform running richer, especially getting near 7:1 results in power drop, and leaner then about 8.2:1 does not net any gains. This tune at 7.9:1 - 8.0:1 is about .81 lambda, and targeting .80-.82 seems to work well on this platform.

While E85 is not available everywhere, even at $2.85/gallon (the price I paid yesterday) it is a bargin compared to running a normal 100+ octane race fuel. We have had good success building OTS maps for E85 for most configurations, so it is something to consider for those looking for more power. (I tuned my H6 last night with E85, and I'll get those results up in a bit. It worked well. )

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
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Surgeline Tuning
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Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 11-23-2008 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:51 PM   #2
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Very nice. E85 here is 1.31 a gallon
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:04 PM   #3
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hell yeah E85 revolution . My car is turn apart right now getting ready for some goodies so I can run E85, I hope I can put it back together .




Last edited by juanmedina; 11-23-2008 at 09:59 PM. Reason: I can't read
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:11 PM   #4
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Nice info Jeff. Very simple and easy to read and understand. Now can someone tell those farmers to get E85 more readily available here in PA?!
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:11 PM   #5
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hell yeah E85 revolution . My car is turn apart right now getting ready for some goodies so I can run E85, I hope I can put it back together .

So, how much boost are you running?



Can you read a graph? Youre going to be out of injector, just FYI. I dont know why Im bothering to repeat this, but I am, and yet, you still dont listen.

Still planning on a new motor by Christmas?
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tuned200 View Post
Very nice. E85 here is 1.31 a gallon
Nice. It was a bit lower here, but has recently been at about $2.70 - $2.90. Of course pump fuel is now down to about $2.19. Then again, 104 unleaded is still about $6.50/gallon, so E85 is a steal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


Can you read a graph? Youre going to be out of injector, just FYI. I dont know why Im bothering to repeat this, but I am, and yet, you still dont listen.

Still planning on a new motor by Christmas?
While I don't know what injectors you are running, if you plan on doing E85 start off with the DW 850s. And a big fuel pump.

Jeff
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
While I don't know what injectors you are running, if you plan on doing E85 start off with the DW 850s. And a big fuel pump.

Jeff
I had 816's and Ive done e85 already. Whats your elevation there, just out of curiosity?

Ive said this before, but Ill say it again. 850's are bare minimum, and if youre going to be running something larger than an 18g and youre not at altitude, well, youre going to need alot more.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:31 PM   #8
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Sent you a PM Jeff.
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:32 PM   #9
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
I had 816's and Ive done e85 already. Whats your elevation there, just out of curiosity?

Ive said this before, but Ill say it again. 850's are bare minimum, and if youre going to be running something larger than an 18g and youre not at altitude, well, youre going to need alot more.
Sea level here, perhaps 1000 feet at my house. Agreed that 850s are the minimum if you want to go with something larger then a 16g Also a single Walbro pump would not be sufficient if you want to go to big power.

Jeff

Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 11-23-2008 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


Can you read a graph? Youre going to be out of injector, just FYI. I dont know why Im bothering to repeat this, but I am, and yet, you still dont listen.

Still planning on a new motor by Christmas?
idiot, I am installing 860ccs with 255 walbro they should be enough


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Old 11-23-2008, 06:27 PM   #11
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idiot, I am installing 860ccs with 255 walbro they should be enough


*sigh*

Listen dude, I dont know how many times I have to tell you for this to sink in. Those injectors and FP wont be enough. Period. End of story. Curtains. I have logs that prove it, without a doubt. Those nice pretty graphs posted in this very thread serve to back my assertions. Notice that nice shiny 16g thats only running ~19psi of boost? Yeah, thats because its *gasp* out of injector. That 16g is easily capable of 24psi in the midrange, especially on a Perrin TMIC. This tune is on the leaner side according to the graph, and it doesnt even go above 20psi. Oh yeah, his altitude is higher than ours, since we are only at around 350-400 feet above sea level, but its not like that matters. Do you want me to quote the 500 other times that Ive told you this already? Who is tuning your car?

Oh yeah, one would think after hearing the same thing over and over and over again that it would sink through their thick skull, but apparently thats not the case with you. You dont listen to people who are more advanced and experienced than you. Who is the idiot again?
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:23 PM   #12
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so just curious but did you do anything to prep the car to run on e85 or did you just throw it in the tank and tune?
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:53 PM   #13
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so just curious but did you do anything to prep the car to run on e85 or did you just throw it in the tank and tune?
Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
so just curious but did you do anything to prep the car to run on e85 or did you just throw it in the tank and tune?
We drained the tank of remaining pump fuel before filling with E85. Its easy to drain the fuel from these cars.....

Turn off the motor. Take off the return line. Connect the return line to a longer line that terminates in an empty can. Start the car and allow the pump to drain the tank.

Prepare a fresh cup of coffee and make initial changes to the pump fuel map to prepare for the first E85 runs.

Reconnect the lines, refill with E85, and make some power.

Best regards
Tim Bailey
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:24 PM   #14
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Wow... What is stoic for E85
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:28 PM   #15
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I love that turbo

I'm slightly surprised though, that the spool isn't a bit quicker. I'm not hating by any means, but I see full boost a little sooner with the EvoIII on a 2.0 with a UEL header and crappy eBay TMIC.

Is that pretty common for the 2.5/16g? You don't see a lot of them around.

I want that torqueband
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:29 PM   #16
Cobb Tuning
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Default Comparing different injectors

Take a look at the graph below. This car was equipped with 850 cc injectors I still had some headroom. 750 cc injectors would have indeed maxed out on this car. The other comparison is to stock injectors.... Pretty clear how stock injectors simply won't work on E85 applications.

Sorry for the poor quality. My graphing program is being a little cranky.



Best regards
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:31 PM   #17
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I love that turbo

I'm slightly surprised though, that the spool isn't a bit quicker. I'm not hating by any means, but I see full boost a little sooner with the EvoIII on a 2.0 with a UEL header and crappy eBay TMIC.

Is that pretty common for the 2.5/16g? You don't see a lot of them around.

I'm not sure if jeff mentioned this but the turbo is an EVO3 16g.... slightly larger than a regular 16g.

I was worried about breaking this customer's transmission. The spool up is a bit sluggish because i was trying to avoid a 3rd gear crushing torque spike.

Tim
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:37 PM   #18
Cobb Tuning
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Default Pump vs meth injection vs e85

I was doing some a web search on e85 and my own subiesport article popped up on driving sports website. I had NO idea it was even posted on the web!!

Here is the link. Its a good read.

http://www.drivingsports.com/site/20...nol-injection/

The article compares E85, pump fuel, and meth injection tuning strategies and results on a STOCK TURBO 06 STi.

If i get permission from the magazine i'll post the results here with full resolution graphs.

Tim
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:37 PM   #19
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Wow... What is stoic for E85
Take a look here:

http://www.drivingsports.com/site/20...nol-injection/
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:40 PM   #20
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Wow... What is stoic for E85
1.0 lambda for E85 is approximatly 9.765:1.

Jeff
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
I'm not sure if jeff mentioned this but the turbo is an EVO3 16g.... slightly larger than a regular 16g.

I was worried about breaking this customer's transmission. The spool up is a bit sluggish because i was trying to avoid a 3rd gear crushing torque spike.

Tim
I didn't see that, but assumed it. The comparison was ALSO to the EvoIII that's on my car, smaller motor/less efficient TMIC/UEL header. But I won't threadjack, I was just curious if that was the normal, I don't recall ever seeing a 2.5/16g setup on paper.
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:45 PM   #22
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E85 FTW 1.27 gallon here...
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:20 AM   #23
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You got raped on E85. You can purchase it locally for 1.75 per gallon.
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:40 AM   #24
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You got raped on E85. You can purchase it locally for 1.75 per gallon.
Matt K mentioned the place downtown, and the one in Cornelius is much cheaper then the Shell station on I5, but the one on I5 is open late, and is pretty close by.

Jeff
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:10 AM   #25
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The closest one to the shop is the one I was talking about, but good job missing it
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