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Old 11-23-2008, 10:43 PM   #1
JamesWilson
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Talking Project FSP Legacy is GO!

After a brief hiatus in the Subaru autocross world after a reasonably successful season in the H-Stock '98 Impreza L (winning 3 NT's, 3 ProSolos, and a few 2nds), it's time to come back.

Unfortunately after I sold the HS car to fund the family move from CA to TX, there wasn't much in the way of spare cash to build anything cool. The Escort GT was okay, with one ProSolo win (and a Super Challenge win also) and a reasonable 4th place at the Finale, but still I really felt that the Subaru could have done much better under those conditions where my driving style and AWD could have shown brighter than the one-wheel wonder.

Fast forward to November, a Legacy popped up with high miles but in good overall condition, definitely a family cruiser and A to B car, and a 2000 model year to boot--- finally, I'm in the same decade with my car! Take that '81 Porsche! . I would really like to codrive a DS car for 2009, but I think the sad realization of high codrive fees/costs and limited seat time would not be affordable to me than building a car across 12-24 months on my terms and budget.

It's big, it's kinda heavy, but it has a PhaseII EJ25, no sunroof/extra junk-- all manual seats and controls, but with the bigger non-Brighton brakes and ABS that works quite well. The redesigned rear suspension to better make room in the wagon area actually handles a fair bit better than I recall the Impreza sedan driving in stock form.

With the 2009 PAX numbers out and hopefully some adjustment in the ProSolo Pax, I think that FSP has gotten a bit of a boost. Also, with the tiny coursed seemingly a thing of the past (yes, the keyhole in the East Course '08 was the worst ever!).

The coolest part is once again, I am starting from scratch in a car that noone even has on the radar, with the potential to do well. The 2.5RS is lighter and has great development, but is classed in DSP. With the similar (same engine but heavier) Legacy in FSP, I think I can take some of the development cues from the DSP car as far as engine and baseline suspension, and go from there in the slower class.

I scored a set of 245/45-16 Hooser A6's with about 4 runs on them for free, at least I can get started on the stock wheels and have a bit of fun.


Here's the plan, keeping it simple rather than blindly spending $$--

Custom Bilstein PSS10 coilovers or Tein coilovers (existing product)
Whiteline or RalliTek bars
Bushings
Chassis bars/reinforcement
Lightening where allowed
Rear VLSD for now

Some limited bolt-on engine/exhaust parts as low-priority, want to sort out the handling and also ensure the health of the engine before going too far in case I break something.

Wheels will likely be 17x9" with 275 or 295 V710's or Hankook Z214 depending on the pending status of tire contracts. I am okay with chopping fenders if necessary, and it actually measures out like there is a lot of room in the rear due to the shock design (instead of struts like the Impreza) that is inboard of the chassis metal. The 3.90 gears help keep shifting to a minimum on a big course.


Let's see what it can do....I'm more doing it for fun and see if some of the larger SP cars can take advantage of the larger courses. My overall budget will be fairly low but consist more on the handling and seat time than just throwing dollars at shiny parts. This is self-funded with no major sponsors (other than tires possibly), and I will probably not have any codrivers, because I haven't found anyone as crazy as me to try "new things" and take the risk.

Opinions, comments, rebuttals, are all welcome. Less "oh the BMW/Focus/Honda/VW will kick it's arse hahaha" and more constructive as the project ensues is best. As much as I think the '91 Legacy SS Turbo would murder FSP, it's just not in the budget to go that route (donations and Lottery Tickets accepted).
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:03 PM   #2
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Very nice....Contact 'Pleiades' who used to campaign a Leggy back in the day...Congrats...I am also running a FSP Impreza OBS...

Also Storm Campaign's a 2.2 Impreza in FSP...along with Neal up in Mass running a OBS .....theres a few of us...

Hope the leggy does well......Good Luck

Bill
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:22 PM   #3
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Good luck with the project James.

If the car handles better than your old Impreza, why not campaign the car in HS for '09, assemble the parts to run in FSP as money permits, and then debut the car in FSP in 2010?
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:27 PM   #4
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^^^ Thought about it, but the car came with obliterated rear diff bushings (the ones that press into the subframe and attach two rear-facing studs to the rear diff housing). So for HS I would spend hundreds on a new subframe with stock bushings and installation. in FSP, I can just squirt some 3M Window Weld in there and call it a day for $15. Also, the trans mount is shot...the Stock part is uber-expensive, while the STi version is half the price. I'd rather put that $$ towards coilovers and wide rubber.

Also, I don't think I can get enough tire on the stock wheels to do well in HS, and the car is pretty big. I believe that the benefits of moving to FSP outweigh the extra work and unjustified cost required to put it back to good-stock-legal form.

I think that my old Impreza was a better HS car if comparing the two especially against a stock MINI, while this Legacy is better suited for FSP given its fixes and class advantages.
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:06 AM   #5
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Stock, as it sits now--



The plan--

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Old 11-24-2008, 01:27 AM   #6
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definitely under the radar. GL w/ the build, if anyone has made more with less, its been u!
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:04 AM   #7
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Nice idea James! I like this one better than the older Legacy SS (only because I KNOW it'd destroy the class). Feel free to contact me for any insight.

Good luck with the build!!!

Jay
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:10 AM   #8
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Nice find - it's good to see another Subaru wagon in FSP. I'll look forward to seeing it/you at Nationals next year - it'll be my first time there. I've also always thought a turbo legacy would be awesome in FSP, but they are just too hard to find in good shape and I think I'd have spent all my time getting one to stay running from the sound of the ones I did find. That's the scourge of the New England winter really - a car that's almost 15-20 years old up here will have almost always have rust. My daily driver is definitely worse for wear at 16 years old.
-N
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:35 AM   #9
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is it a Standard??? or Auto????

the interesting thing...is that 'Most' 08 Impreza things will bolt up...suspension wise....GL trying to find a Rear Strut bar for that thing....(I know I have tried with a customer of mine)

Tribeca Front bar(25mm solid) will bolt up...You will have to get a Leggy Specific Rear bar as a Impreza one will bolt up but will have a horrific Clank on the tirewell...(the Leggy specific has a Dip in the bar to avoid this)...

Suggest checking before it gets out of hand:

-All Wheel Bearings
-See if Headgaskets have been done
-Steering Rack Bushings are "MUST"
-Brake lines are a 6 pc kit...
-OBX Front diff is reasonable for a NA car
-Some parts motorwise are the same as RS....(Cams, heads, Headers...etc) you could probably even get I-speed to remap the computer if you wanted...for that extra 1K Redline...


More as I think of it...

Bill
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:05 AM   #10
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Curious: What makes you all think the Legacy SS is the ticket? If I remember correctly, the SS has 160 hp? So with free boost, that's in the 170 whp when all is said and done?

It's still 2900 lb in SP trim, right?

I wouldn't think AWD would make up for a 500 lb disadvantage over a Neon, particularly when the DOHC Neon can make 150 whp.

Am I missing something?
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxQ View Post
Curious: What makes you all think the Legacy SS is the ticket? If I remember correctly, the SS has 160 hp? So with free boost, that's in the 170 whp when all is said and done?

It's still 2900 lb in SP trim, right?

I wouldn't think AWD would make up for a 500 lb disadvantage over a Neon, particularly when the DOHC Neon can make 150 whp.

Am I missing something?
The Legacy SS should be much lower than 2900lbs in SP trim. Those older Legacies were mostly Imprezas with a different body. My Impreza was down to 2680 this year and I'm hoping to shave more off next year in the form of seats, wheels, steering wheel, (cough**driver**cough), etc. I can't believe a Legacy would be that much heavier. I also suspect those EJ22ts can make more than 170whp with a full SP build. A nice tune and a big intercooler and a very robust block known to accept much higher-than-stock boost levels pretty easily should put it higher, though I can't speak from personal experience with it. I would think 190whp is within range at least.
-N
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilschelly View Post
The Legacy SS should be much lower than 2900lbs in SP trim. Those older Legacies were mostly Imprezas with a different body. My Impreza was down to 2680 this year and I'm hoping to shave more off next year in the form of seats, wheels, steering wheel, (cough**driver**cough), etc. I can't believe a Legacy would be that much heavier. I also suspect those EJ22ts can make more than 170whp with a full SP build. A nice tune and a big intercooler and a very robust block known to accept much higher-than-stock boost levels pretty easily should put it higher, though I can't speak from personal experience with it. I would think 190whp is within range at least.
-N

Ok, I'll buy your hp number, due to my ignorance... but, unless I'm mistaken, the SS legacy was 3,140 lb in stock trim. HOW in the world do you expect to get 600 lbs out of a car in SP??

edit: ok, one resource says 3,140, another ~2800 lb... confirmation?
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:30 AM   #13
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Cool.

Back when we made money at work, I though about going FSP with the Mazda. Maybe next year...
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:30 AM   #14
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Thanks for the replies. It's a 5-speed, non-sunroof car.

I totally would have gone with the Legacy SS...having driven a few when I didn't have the money to buy them, they felt nearly identical to a stockish WRX....minimal turbo lag, pulled strongly, and did not feel that heavy, and Impreza stuff bolts up. The boost rules and water injection really would have opened up the power on that car, and the closed-deck block + oil squirters is about as tough as you can get. The difference between a 190whp turbo Legacy and a 150whp Neon is about $3K in engine machining and parts vs $50 in boost controller and water injection parts....and the launch advantage in the rain for ProSolos. But alas, all the good ones are in the Pacific NW, but are fairly cheap. Oh well. Knowing my luck, I just might stumble upon one haha.

PS-- the Legacy SS, the '91 with the VLSD that I weighed last year, was south of 2900lbs....that is all I will say . Killer H-Stock car too. My Impreza was 2670lbs, the other '97 was 2600lbs (he could run empty on fuel, I had 3/4 tank for starving). 137hp vs 160hp with not much weight penalty, and you get ABS too.

So back to my project, yes the Tribeca bar might be the way to go as it is cheaper and a good large bar. Good call on the wagon rear bar, I remember using a '96 Legacy Outback Wagon rear bar on my Impreza for RallyCrosses, and it did have that dip for the spare tire well.
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxQ View Post
Ok, I'll buy your hp number, due to my ignorance... but, unless I'm mistaken, the SS legacy was 3,140 lb in stock trim. HOW in the world do you expect to get 600 lbs out of a car in SP??

edit: ok, one resource says 3,140, another ~2800 lb... confirmation?
Maybe it really is that heavy then. I still think it'd be a fun car. And I think powering the rear wheels can make that much of a difference sometimes, especially if the driver is good. But there's certainly something to be said for lightweight and FWD, no doubt about that.
-N
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWilson View Post
The difference between a 190whp turbo Legacy and a 150whp Neon is about $3K in engine machining and parts vs $50 in boost controller and water injection parts....and the launch advantage in the rain for ProSolos.
+3 diffs.

And the 150 whp Neon is i/h/e, pulleys, ECU.

But I digress. I do like that style Legacy, James. The fact that you can raid the large aftermarket for Imprezas eliminates one of the major obstacles to running something "off the radar."
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:25 PM   #17
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I will definitely look into the I-Speed reflashes, Crawford is very near my sister's house, I will be there over Christmas and will be bringing the Leggy.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:55 PM   #18
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Hmmmm after reading the Tribeca 25mm FSB super-thread, it looks like the bar might interfere with the 9" wide wheels and 275's.

Anyone run DSP with the B9 bar on it and the big wheels?
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:04 PM   #19
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Hmmmm after reading the Tribeca 25mm FSB super-thread, it looks like the bar might interfere with the 9" wide wheels and 275's.

Anyone run DSP with the B9 bar on it and the big wheels?

maybe Patrick???? not sure......
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:59 PM   #20
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I think Pat does run that Tribeca bar.....or at least tried it. I think the OBX front diff should be reasonable high on the priority list, James. It's well worth it.....

I passed over a couple suitable Legacy SS's around here in the past couple years.....I still kick myself for it. Then again, I've got a nasty itch to put an OBX diff into a FWD trans and see how it goes in the Impreza......Of course with diffs being unrestricted, my mind has played with the thought of an open front diff with no ring gear and a spool for a center diff. Instant RWD Impreza and SP legal.....and yeah, the dead weight would be an issue to think about, but my car weighed 2450 this year with 1/4 tank.

Options....options......

Jay Storm
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:13 PM   #21
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If I was going to build up an FSP car, I think one of those new Jetta TDI cars would be fun. They look pretty quick on television on that TDI cup show on Speed.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:14 PM   #22
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Quote:
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I think Pat does run that Tribeca bar.....or at least tried it. I think the OBX front diff should be reasonable high on the priority list, James. It's well worth it.....

I passed over a couple suitable Legacy SS's around here in the past couple years.....I still kick myself for it. Then again, I've got a nasty itch to put an OBX diff into a FWD trans and see how it goes in the Impreza......Of course with diffs being unrestricted, my mind has played with the thought of an open front diff with no ring gear and a spool for a center diff. Instant RWD Impreza and SP legal.....and yeah, the dead weight would be an issue to think about, but my car weighed 2450 this year with 1/4 tank.

Options....options......

Jay Storm
I can't believe you can run with a 1/4 tank - I think I gotta look into a fuel cell. Toward the end of this year, I didn't run with less than 3/4 - yikes. I'm pretty sure that ring gear removal would also be illegal as I'd say you can't arbitrarily remove diffs or parts thereof. That would sorta be like changing the gear ratio. But my eyes are set (probably after next year) on building a transmission with an open center diff that sends 65% of the torque to the rear and combining that with a 4.111 rear end from an automatic and a smaller overall rear tire diameter to get a 75% rear biased torque layout.

So far, I've got the rear diff set. Now, I just need a decent swap-in 5MT from an AWD EJ18, an OBX front, and a tarmac center and I'll practically be done. Anyone got a few grand to spare me? I'll very willingly put your name on my car and call you a sponsor! ;-)

I am also curious about that B9 bar - I never heard of that. I run the IPD 22mm or 24mm? I can't even remember how big it is now, but I remember it was the largest I could find. I feel like you can never have enough front bar in autocross.
-N
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #23
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Tribeca front sway bar install

itty bitty stock front bar...


New front 25mm Tribeca Bar...






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Old 11-24-2008, 06:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
I think Pat does run that Tribeca bar.....or at least tried it. I think the OBX front diff should be reasonable high on the priority list, James. It's well worth it.....

I passed over a couple suitable Legacy SS's around here in the past couple years.....I still kick myself for it. Then again, I've got a nasty itch to put an OBX diff into a FWD trans and see how it goes in the Impreza......Of course with diffs being unrestricted, my mind has played with the thought of an open front diff with no ring gear and a spool for a center diff. Instant RWD Impreza and SP legal.....and yeah, the dead weight would be an issue to think about, but my car weighed 2450 this year with 1/4 tank.

Options....options......

Jay Storm

1/4 TANK!! You suck!!
Wish I could run that much.

James, yes I am running the B9 bar with the 275/35-15's. I rub the bar when I goto lock with the steering. Wish you were interested in a DSP drive.

Edit: Scooby South, where did you get you bushings from?


Last edited by Patrick L; 11-24-2008 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Edit: Scooby South, where did you get you bushings from?
they were from a 24mm rear STi bar...I want to say....Cobb maybe...I don't remember...One of my guys gave them to me...I basically squished them on...greased the hell out of them...and luckily they work...

that was when I first put the bar on....I have the same endlinks as you do now...I am also running a 20-24 Rear Adj bar...

Bill
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