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Old 11-24-2008, 01:33 AM   #1
sponaugle
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Default Some more E85 goodness with the EZ30R

After seeing how well E85 worked on that 16G setup, I decided to go ahead and try some E85 in my H6 Bugeye Subaru. I have been running around on pump fuel at about 18psi, which is about 450whp. With 6 DW 850cc injectors at 80% I started to run out of fuel pressure at higher RPM. At the time I was running a Supra pump with a boost-a- pump at 15Vs. I’m planning on switching to an Aeromotive A1000 over the winter, but in the interim I decided to drop in a dual Walbro setup. With the Aeromotive regulator set at 52psi base fp, the fuel pressure is now stable all the way to 100% injector flow.

With the boost at 18psi on pump fuel output was 454whp and 451 lb-ft of torque. Switching over to E85 and turning the boost up a bit to ~20psi netted a nice 502whp and 541 lb-ft of torque. All in all not bad for only 20.6psi. It is interesting to compare to other 35R based projects. Looking at a few other threads at the top of PPB right now I see the ATP/Agile 35R setup makes about 250 lb-ft at 4000 rpm (onj Q16), while this setup make about 425 lb-ft. The HTA35R setup from top speed makes 240 lb-ft at 4000 rpm (but of course goes on to make a crazy 621whp!).



I experimented with the fueling and found the best power occurred at a slightly leaner than usual .83 lambda. The pump fuel tune was closer to .78-.79 lambda (11.6-11.7 AFR).



I didn’t notice until I was off the dyno that the duty cycles were a bit low in the low end, so next time I’m on the dyno I’ll work on getting the lower boost ramped up a bit faster. Given the injector headroom down low I may try running more boost near torque peak and rolling off towards redline.



While there is adequate injector headroom on pump fuel, the E85 tune pushed duty cycles to about 97% at redline. Any more boost uptop and I’ll need something bigger. I’ll switch over to some 1000cc injectors over the holidays to make things a bit safer.



I originally ran the 20psi E85 map with the same timing as pump fuel, but gained an additional 35 lb-ft of torque with ~ 2 degrees more timing. There is still some work to do in regards to experimenting with different AFRs and the related MBT, but as it sits now the timing seems well placed.



For those not familiar with my H6 WRX, here is a quick rundown of the pertinent details:
(details posted here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1215617 )

EZ30R 3.0L H6 6 Cylinder Engine (used in the 05+ Legacy and 06-07 Tribeca)
Supertec 8:1 CR Custom Pistons
Pauter H6 I Beam Rods
Supertec High Rate Valve Springs and Retainers
Supertec Exhaust Valves
EZ30D Intake Manifold
Custom Fuel Rail and Lines
Aeromotive 1000 FPR (52psi base FP)
Twin Walbro Fuel Pumps intank
Perrin GT35R .82 A/R Turbo kit
Custom H6 Header
DTEC Boost Controller
Hydra 2.5 Engine Management
6x810cc blue Top Feed Injectors
JDM 6-Speed, w/ 05 US 5th and 6th gears







Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Research Calibrator
Surgeline Tuning
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Last edited by sponaugle; 12-01-2008 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 11-24-2008, 01:47 AM   #2
sponaugle
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Oh, here is a small clip on the dyno.

http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/H6DynoRun.wmv

Jeff
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:20 AM   #3
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Very nice!! I can't wait for my upcoming E8fizzle tune!!
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Old 11-24-2008, 02:42 AM   #4
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me either...lol.. hey buddie!!!!!!
H6 the way to go.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:12 AM   #5
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awesome gains!!
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #6
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not to **** in your cereal but.. since we're bragging about power at 4000rpm... take a look at P&L's 08 sti 3076R... ~435ft-lbs at 4000rpm, 330whp

Last edited by Audiosavvy; 07-14-2009 at 04:42 PM. Reason: let the swear filter do its job please
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #7
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Nice gains there. Im still waiting for them to build an e85 station where I live they have one where I work 75miles away but it doesnt do me any good here haha.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
not to shi*t in your cereal but.. since we're bragging about power at 4000rpm... take a look at P&L's 08 sti 3076R... ~435ft-lbs at 4000rpm, 330whp
think about that for a minute...

but much like trying to compare an engine that's 20% larger to a smaller one...its all apples and oranges.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
think about that for a minute...

but much like trying to compare an engine that's 20% larger to a smaller one...its all apples and oranges.

ya ya... i guess what i'm saying is... will you put some 100oct in and try again
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:10 AM   #10
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
not to shi*t in your cereal but.. since we're bragging about power at 4000rpm... take a look at P&L's 08 sti 3076R... ~435ft-lbs at 4000rpm, 330whp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
think about that for a minute...

but much like trying to compare an engine that's 20% larger to a smaller one...its all apples and oranges.
No worries mates. I was only making the comparison to other setups with the same turbo. As one would expect, more displacement helps spoolup and torque. The same can be said for a smaller turbo. If my memory serves me, I made just over 400 lb-ft at 3250 rpm on the stock turbo in my 08 STI (meth spray of course).

Apples to bigger apples indeed.

For me the most interesting thing about this tune was the changes in AFR. I originally ran at about .76l, then started slowly leaning out the E85. On some setups leaning above .78 makes small gains, but here the biggest jump was from .8 to about .83. I'm going to do some more experimentation of the holidays to determine the MBT for each AFR level and see how they compare.

Jeff
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:10 PM   #11
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just wondering, but why does it hold power better with pump?
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanathanq83 View Post
just wondering, but why does it hold power better with pump?
less boost = flatter tq curve
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Old 11-24-2008, 12:38 PM   #13
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanathanq83 View Post
just wondering, but why does it hold power better with pump?
I'm not sure I understand you question. Looking at the graph, the E85 power is flatter then the pump fuel power. Did you mean to say why is the torque curve flatter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnite_wrex View Post
less boost = flatter tq curve
Indeed at the lower boost levels it is often eaiser to keep the torque curve flatter. Keep in mind the torque curve could be made flatter my simply running less boost in the midrange. For a time-attack map that might be worth trying, but I suspect in the end the most torque possible would be the fastest.

I have considered playing around with the boost to try and get the torque curve as flat as possible, just for the fun of trying.

Jeff
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:06 PM   #14
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jeff.. hope i didnt come off like a jerk from my post earlier. your h6 build thread prompted me to come up with a budget to do it myself, but i decided on an admittantly lower hp 2.5l setup. trying to keep it under 10k, which hopefully should net around 400/400 after all is said and done. anyway, keep up the awesome, first-off work.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:56 PM   #15
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
jeff.. hope i didnt come off like a jerk from my post earlier. your h6 build thread prompted me to come up with a budget to do it myself, but i decided on an admittantly lower hp 2.5l setup. trying to keep it under 10k, which hopefully should net around 400/400 after all is said and done. anyway, keep up the awesome, first-off work.

Nah... My comparison was really just a jest.

As an aside, I got a PM about why I had the Aeromotive FPR, so I figured I might as well go ahead and post the reply here:

"The primary reason to upgrade the FPR is if your fuel pump flows so much that the stock unit can't keep up. The FPR is on the return side of the fuel system, and if the FPR can't flow enough to keep the pressure down, you will have above normal fuel pressure at idle and low load/cruise.

In my case there are two critical problems. First I am using a twim walbro setup, which flows quite a bit more fuel, and second I am not using the factory fuel pump controller. As a result both pumps are running 100% all the time. This leads to more flow then the stock regulator can handle, thus the need for a larger regulator.

If I were to stage the pumps (only power the second pump over perhaps 50% duty cycle), I could probably still use the stock regulator.

The only other advantage is in the setup. The nicer aeromotive regulator has either -10 or -6 AN inputs, and FPR Gauge port, and very good construction. It is also adjustable.

In this case I raised the base fuel pressure from 43.5psi to about 52psi, which gave me more headroom with the injectors that I have.

"

Jeff
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:30 PM   #16
kevinh211
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nice post, your post are always very informative.
how many miles do you have on the h6 now? how is it holding up?
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:02 AM   #17
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Notice any issues with the BOV so close to the turbo? Why didn't you keep it at the throttle body?
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Old 11-25-2008, 09:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Jeff Sponaugle
Research Calibrator
Surgeline Tuning
When did that happen?

Interesting results, Jeff. Looking forward to updates here.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:22 AM   #19
seanathanq83
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i was reading the graph wrong lol looks good though, great job on the 500whp bet it feels great
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:16 PM   #20
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcbjr View Post
Notice any issues with the BOV so close to the turbo? Why didn't you keep it at the throttle body?
That is a great question. I actually love the way it is setup now. I have a very light spring in the BOV, so it is open at idle. It will blow off on negative transitions, even from just 1 or 2 psi. The result is very very smooth driving. At part throttle, it will be partially open, and as you increase pressure it closes. It is pretty much the opposite of the BOV setup on my 08, which is the typical vent to atmosphere heavy spring setup.

Anyone driving the heavy spring setup knows about the jerkiness at part throttle high rpm if you lift at all.

Speed density is so much better for this kind of setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine View Post
When did that happen?

Interesting results, Jeff. Looking forward to updates here.
Indeed. Life is full of surprises. Actually I have been working with Tim for sometime on Surgeline, and of course Tim and I were part of the original PDX crew. Ah the history.

Cheers,

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 11-25-2008 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:49 AM   #21
sponaugle
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Just a small update:

I played around a bit on the dyno to see if I could get a bit more torque. My upper end hp is limited as I am at 100% injector on E85, but the midrange had a bit more room to go.

After perhaps 30 pulls or so, I managed to get the torque up to 580 lb-ft, but that took about 24psi, compared to the 540 lb-ft at only 20.5 psi. Clearly I am getting to the edge of the compressor map. I was able to get the HP a bit flatter, but I also rolled the boost down a bit more at redline.

On the plus side, I have done probably 50 pulls at >530 lb-ft of torque and the engine is running great.

So.. It looks like I'm going to need to change to a slightly larger turbo to get to my goal of 600/600. I am considering the new GT3788R, which would give me a bit more compressor without too much additional lag.

I'll post a dyno plot tomorrow.

Cheers,

Jeff
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:23 PM   #22
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sweet!!

Maybe plans for a ts40 instead? I've heard the 3788r may be a bit of a mis-matched turbo like 3040r style mismatch. Too much compressor not enough turbine

either way, i love this project. BTW, if you're out of injector now, are you planning on getting some bigger ones or are you just gonna bump the fuel pressure?
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:13 AM   #23
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Jeff, have you considered the use of a twin-turbo setup for the H6? I know it has many disadvantages in terms of fabrication required, clearances, etc. I mainly would just love to see if it gives even broader area under the curve.

Any option to run dual injectors with the EZ30R manifold? Does the use of the Aeromotive FPR effectively give you more range in injector sizing before low-rpm drivability is hurt?

Frank
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:25 PM   #24
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Now that' I still have yet to check are the stock 3.0R injectors topfeeds aswell and did it take no modifying for the larger injectors? I know you guys worked over the rails on the Perrin 06' car but didn't know what you did on yours. Also would you consider running back to the non-return fuel lines like the stock Legacy's setup? And can I just say DAMN that vid rocks like CRYSTAL METH! Listening to it spool it's like R@@@@@@@@...PEEeeee.....
-Gaddis
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:36 AM   #25
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
Jeff, have you considered the use of a twin-turbo setup for the H6? I know it has many disadvantages in terms of fabrication required, clearances, etc. I mainly would just love to see if it gives even broader area under the curve.

Any option to run dual injectors with the EZ30R manifold? Does the use of the Aeromotive FPR effectively give you more range in injector sizing before low-rpm drivability is hurt?

Frank
The twin turbo setup would be nice, but indeed the packaging is the hard part. I am still planning on doing a twin scroll 4088, as I think that will be the best overall. Right now I have 6 8xxcc injectors, but I will be putting in some 1000cc high impendence ones shortly. They are regular top feed style injectors. It would take some work to do two injectors setups, as the injector inlets in the H6 are in the head, not the intake manifold.

The FPR is there only because the two walbro setup overflows the stock regulator, making fuel pressure to high at idle. It does not make flow better in any way, as it is on the return side of the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphinwolf View Post
Now that' I still have yet to check are the stock 3.0R injectors topfeeds aswell and did it take no modifying for the larger injectors? I know you guys worked over the rails on the Perrin 06' car but didn't know what you did on yours. Also would you consider running back to the non-return fuel lines like the stock Legacy's setup? And can I just say DAMN that vid rocks like CRYSTAL METH! Listening to it spool it's like R@@@@@@@@...PEEeeee.....
-Gaddis
Yes, top feeds just like the old WRXs and new WRX/STIS. Since I am running the Hydra, I could go to 1600cc low impedence injectors, and that is a good option. I have the same fuel rail setup that Jeff has.. pretty much modded stock rails (they are a simple setup), with a regular return system.

It would be difficult to do a returnless system and maintain pressure control, as a boosted envirionment really needs 1:1 fuel pressure ramp. Actually to get the E85 tune, I had to up the pressure a bit from 43psi. I really need bigger injectors to make more power on E85..

Jeff
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