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Old 11-26-2008, 10:05 PM   #1
whatishe
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Default Check out the custom powder. CE28N's

Just took these tonight. Custom powder coat with double pin stripe all cleared in high gloss. Have the Black volk stems and a set of black lugs to go with.


What does everyone think?
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:18 PM   #2
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Nice!!!!
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:32 PM   #3
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you know you cant powder coat those rims eh? when they bake forged rims, it weakens the material and your rims could warp or bend much eaiser.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:09 AM   #4
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I doubt I'll have any issues since I used a VERY reputable guy. If this was true he would have almost 0 business.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltsnipe View Post
you know you cant powder coat those rims eh? when they bake forged rims, it weakens the material and your rims could warp or bend much eaiser.
here we go...

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Old 11-27-2008, 12:26 AM   #6
whatishe
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Originally Posted by fiveoh88 View Post
here we go...

Seriously. I read the threads about this. It's always I guy i know or a guy I heard about. The rims came powder coated from the factory. If they fail, I'll be sure to post it with pics.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
Seriously. I read the threads about this. It's always I guy i know or a guy I heard about. The rims came powder coated from the factory. If they fail, I'll be sure to post it with pics.
So first hand information doesn't count? Reputable or not, I've seen way too many wheels break because of powder coating at the track. And by, "way to many" I mean more than one. So far, the count is 6. So, you don't have to trust me if you don't want to. Just do a little research in metallurgy an you will find out that even 10 minutes at 350 degrees can and will age the metal to the next hardness level. I.E. not a good thing.

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Old 11-27-2008, 12:51 AM   #8
whatishe
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ASM Handbook Volume 2, Properties and Selection: Nonferrous Alloys and Special-Purpose Materials has the following information:

356-T6: aging at 305 to 315 F for 2 to 5 hours
Yield stress = 185 MPa
Ultimate stress = 262 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.05

356-T7: aging at 435 to 445 F for 7 to 9 hours
Yield stress = 165 MPa
Ultimate stress = 220 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.06

Based on these data, a 400 F treatment for less than 1 hour shouldn't reduce the fatigue strength significantly. Assuming that the wheels are 6061-T6, the over-aging that will occur at < 1 hour will be minimal. The increase and loss of ductility at a T7 level would be much higher, but to move to the T7 over-aged state from a T6 would require +40 minutes at 400 degrees. If the calculations are correct baking 40 min or less at 350 or less should allow the wheel to hold temper while not significantly increasing the ductility of the metal. My wheels were baked at 350 and were gradually brought to temperature then gradually cooled to prevent sudden stress failures. I'm not saying failure due to PC is impossible, it is indeed more than possible if done wrong. However, I think that it is less likely than some people will have you believe. Also, the 6 unspecified failures you have noted could have been brought on by several factors including but not limited to: preparation, temperature cured at, time cured, track conditions, wheel defects, alloy strength, impurity levels, or a combination of those or other factors. It would be valuable to see a metallurgist's analysis of the failures. Maybe a materials scientist can come up with more conclusive answers, but I did the best analysis I could based on my understanding. At the end of the day, these are not going to be my track wheels, so I'm not as concerned as I would be if I were planning to AutoX these.

Last edited by whatishe; 11-27-2008 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltsnipe View Post
you know you cant powder coat those rims eh? when they bake forged rims, it weakens the material and your rims could warp or bend much eaiser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
ASM Handbook Volume 2, Properties and Selection: Nonferrous Alloys and Special-Purpose Materials has the following information:

356-T6: aging at 305 to 315 F for 2 to 5 hours
Yield stress = 185 MPa
Ultimate stress = 262 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.05

356-T7: aging at 435 to 445 F for 7 to 9 hours
Yield stress = 165 MPa
Ultimate stress = 220 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.06

Based on these data, a 400 F treatment for less than 1 hour shouldn't reduce the fatigue strength significantly. Assuming that the wheels are 6061-T6, the over-aging that will occur at < 1 hour will be minimal. The increase and loss of ductility at a T7 level would be much higher, but to move to the T7 over-aged state from a T6 would require +40 minutes at 400 degrees. If the calculations are correct baking 40 min or less at 350 or less should allow the wheel to hold temper while not significantly increasing the ductility of the metal. My wheels were baked at 350 and were gradually brought to temperature then gradually cooled to prevent sudden stress failures. I'm not saying failure due to PC is impossible, it is indeed more than possible if done wrong. However, I think that it is less likely than some people will have you believe. Also, the 6 unspecified failures you have noted could have been brought on by several factors including but not limited to: preparation, temperature cured at, time cured, track conditions, wheel defects, alloy strength, impurity levels, or a combination of those or other factors. It would be valuable to see a metallurgist's analysis of the failures. Maybe a materials scientist can come up with more conclusive answers, but I did the best analysis I could based on my understanding. At the end of the day, these are not going to be my track wheels, so I'm not as concerned as I would be if I were planning to AutoX these.

he just said F-U back to Bangkok
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
Also, the 6 unspecified failures you have noted could have been brought on by several factors including but not limited to: preparation, temperature cured at, time cured, track conditions, wheel defects, alloy strength, impurity levels, or a combination of those or other factors. It would be valuable to see a metallurgist's analysis of the failures. Maybe a materials scientist can come up with more conclusive answers, but I did the best analysis I could based on my understanding. At the end of the day, these are not going to be my track wheels, so I'm not as concerned as I would be if I were planning to AutoX these.
I would never use a wheel that was re-powdercoated on the track. Just not smart. That is where all the breakages have occurred that I have witnessed. If it's for the street, then the the chance of a problem is greatly reduced. While it's not certain, any heating, controlled or not, will in fact, age harden the material. Without taking a sample and analyzing it, there is no way to tell. Four of the 6 that I've seen break were genuine 1995 Ford Cobra R wheels that were powdercoated black. While the failures weren't catastrophic as in the pictures floating around the internet of other wheels, All four wheels on the car had cracks in at least 3 spokes. The shop that did the coating is an industrial shop that mostly works on commercial jobs. 400 degress at 40 minutes is what it took to seriously compromise the integrity of the wheels. But, as I've said previously, the tires used at the time were Khumos and I doubt the damages would have been as great if street tires were mounted. But, I agree with you though, for the street, there shouldn't be a problem as the loads are much less than the track.

Bill
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:24 AM   #11
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Powder coating is harmless. The wheels look great.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpunlamd View Post
Powder coating is harmless.
Please qualify comments like that.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cpunlamd View Post
Powder coating is harmless. The wheels look great.
not sure if that's true.. although i know nothing about stuff like this since i've never painted or pcoated any of my wheels, i'll say that i was advised not to pcoat my 5zigen fn01rcs

i'm just using my wheels as an example since i asked someone if pcoating were possible once they're about to fade and that's the answer i received
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Old 11-27-2008, 03:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJC View Post
Please qualify comments like that.
It's already been done.
See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
ASM Handbook Volume 2, Properties and Selection: Nonferrous Alloys and Special-Purpose Materials has the following information:

356-T6: aging at 305 to 315 F for 2 to 5 hours
Yield stress = 185 MPa
Ultimate stress = 262 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.05

356-T7: aging at 435 to 445 F for 7 to 9 hours
Yield stress = 165 MPa
Ultimate stress = 220 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.06

Based on these data, a 400 F treatment for less than 1 hour shouldn't reduce the fatigue strength significantly. Assuming that the wheels are 6061-T6, the over-aging that will occur at < 1 hour will be minimal. The increase and loss of ductility at a T7 level would be much higher, but to move to the T7 over-aged state from a T6 would require +40 minutes at 400 degrees. If the calculations are correct baking 40 min or less at 350 or less should allow the wheel to hold temper while not significantly increasing the ductility of the metal. My wheels were baked at 350 and were gradually brought to temperature then gradually cooled to prevent sudden stress failures. I'm not saying failure due to PC is impossible, it is indeed more than possible if done wrong. However, I think that it is less likely than some people will have you believe. Also, the 6 unspecified failures you have noted could have been brought on by several factors including but not limited to: preparation, temperature cured at, time cured, track conditions, wheel defects, alloy strength, impurity levels, or a combination of those or other factors. It would be valuable to see a metallurgist's analysis of the failures. Maybe a materials scientist can come up with more conclusive answers, but I did the best analysis I could based on my understanding. At the end of the day, these are not going to be my track wheels, so I'm not as concerned as I would be if I were planning to AutoX these.

There is no harm in PROPERLY powder coating wheels.
My coater, who has been doing it for 25 years made it very clear to me one day when I was asking him about wheels.

He said
"We powder coat aluminum railings for skyscraper balconies. They're tested against salt, wind, stress, and they pass without issue. There is no difference in the strength of an aluminum railing, before or after it's been coated, and they're less than an eighth of an inch thick. There's no way will your wheel strength ever be affected by a little over a half hour in a powder coat oven."

The temps aren't high enough, and the time isn't long enough.
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Old 11-27-2008, 04:31 PM   #15
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All this and all I wanted was to show off a killer job. Thanks to those that actually commented on the wheels themselves.
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:41 PM   #16
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Please qualify comments like that.
You would have to "qualify" facts to prove powder coating these wheels would actually decrease strength. Before I qualify the reasons why powder coating is harmless. (smart guy)
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
All this and all I wanted was to show off a killer job. Thanks to those that actually commented on the wheels themselves.
I think your wheels look "spectacular", and thats no BS.
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:22 PM   #18
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I like the wheels too, saw this thread too late after the ZOMGBBQ instant death
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:08 PM   #19
whatishe
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My friend at Grand Stand Designs in Metuchen, NJ did them for me. Took a while to get the powder in but he did really great work. He even repaired a gash in one of the rims that the previous owner "added". I'll post a better close up this weekend, and a few of the wheels on the wagon. You can't really see it but the red stripe is shadowed by a black stripe. If you are in the tri-state and need anything powder coated def. give them a call; ask for Pete.
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by cpunlamd View Post
You would have to "qualify" facts to prove powder coating these wheels would actually decrease strength. Before I qualify the reasons why powder coating is harmless. (smart guy)
I have, any many times too. All you have to do is search. Also, re-read my posts. You might learn something. The broken wheels happened at the track using R Compound tires. How is it that four wheels broke at the same time only a week after being powdercoated? The coater does it for living so I doubt he did anything different. As explained to me in physics classes, in manuals and by engineers, and hour at 350-400 degrees is enough to age the metal to some extent. It measurable. Even the post above quotes it, 305 - 315 for as little as 2 hours ages the material to T6 standards. If the wheel was already heat treated from the factory, which most wheels are, any additional heating will result in additional aging of the metal. Period. That is a fact. How much is determined by the heat and the time spent in the oven. If I'm the only one that has witnessed failures of this type then you all have been very lucky. Or you don't go to the track. If it's the latter, then you "should" be fine. But, if it were my set of wheels, I wouldn't be my life on it.

Your turn,

Bill
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
All this and all I wanted was to show off a killer job. Thanks to those that actually commented on the wheels themselves.
And yes, the wheels do look nice. The red strip is a bit much for me though. But, still nice

Cheers,

Bill
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatishe View Post
356-T6: aging at 305 to 315 F for 2 to 5 hours
Yield stress = 185 MPa
Ultimate stress = 262 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.05

356-T7: aging at 435 to 445 F for 7 to 9 hours
Yield stress = 165 MPa
Ultimate stress = 220 MPa
Fracture strain = 0.06
That data tells you about thermal processing 356 to get certain properties - what it does not tell you is the impact which thermal processing has on the strength of a forged wheel, where you are relying on the cold work from the forging process to give you enhanced mechanical strength (i.e., your mechanical strength is not dictated solely by the ageing treatment which the material has seen) - by heating the forged wheel, too much time at the temperatures mentioned above will anneal out much of the cold work (and thus strength) which you gained from the forging process - so while you haven't overaged the material from a precipitation hardening point of view, you could have a significant impact on the mechanical properties by removing the benefit which you gained (and rely upon...) from the forging process.

This isn't to say that powdercoating can't be done - there are materials which would work fine - you just have to be sure that the coater knows what they are doing, and is using the proper materials and curing methodology for a forged wheel.
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:17 AM   #23
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lol so to answer the op's original question: I think they look great! Post pics when they're on the car!
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:10 PM   #24
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Default nice wheel

Man those volks are very nice I am looking for some black wheels or Pcoated BBS for my car.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:32 PM   #25
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Ohh wow you've seen broken wheels at the track... Is that really a big deal? How many wheels have you seen broken at the track that were not powder coated??? I've seen a bunch of stuff break at the track but never a re-powder coated wheel.
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