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Old 12-02-2008, 09:20 AM   #76
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reverse cooled is where the water returning from the radiator cools the heads first and then the block. The purpose of this is to keep the heads cooler allowing for a higher detonation threshold.
On our engines however we don't have an opportunity for this completely because of how our coolant system flows. It's rather bizarre. We flow from the block, through the head and then back through the block.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:03 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
reverse cooled is where the water returning from the radiator cools the heads first and then the block. The purpose of this is to keep the heads cooler allowing for a higher detonation threshold.
On our engines however we don't have an opportunity for this completely because of how our coolant system flows. It's rather bizarre. We flow from the block, through the head and then back through the block.
Couldn't have explained it better myself. Coming from LS1's and LS2's, I do have some fond memories of it's advantages.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:56 PM   #78
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Forget that^^^^, the easiest way to get 500 whp is this!!!!

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Old 12-02-2008, 04:58 PM   #79
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yet another thread from someone who doesnt know what they want....

picking some arbitrary whp number is the most retarded way to pick a setup.

so do you want 500whp on a dynojet or 500whp on a mustang or dyno dynamics?

Based on your comments about wanting to race cars and beat them....you want a fast car that probably traps 120-130mph.

you're either gonna need a rotated 35r or bigger....or something smaller combined with lots of weight reduction and ppg's.

if you got the sti to simply beat cars in a straight line cheaply, then you bought the wrong car.

also, a 350whp-400whp car can beat a 500whp car in many daily driving situations.....just cause a car does the 1/4 mile faster doesnt mean its faster from 30-60mph or 40-80mph, etc. the bigger your turbo the more aware you have to be of your rpm if someone next to you decides to gun it.
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:12 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
TurboXS TMIC? I am going TXS FMIC for just ~330whp. If you're really going for 500whp, then think about the heatsoak your TMIC will suffer from. More power = more heat, and therefore more retarding on timing in certain driving conditions.
well based on those comments you really have no idea how the intake air temperature timing compensation works.

the IAT sensor is in with the MAF sensor and still in the engine bay.....

the IAT Comp pulls timing based on the temp of the air coming through the intake, not the temp of the air after it passes the the intercooler (unless you're running a blow through MAF setup).

if you're stopped at a light or stop sign the tmic will heat soak, but the IAT timing comps will pull the same amount of timing on both cars.

if you're turbo is properly wrapped/shielded then heat seak is not very much of an issue. if you're running meth with the tmic, then the heat soak really isnt an issue.

i run FP Greens and tmic+meth on both my wrx and sti. staying tmic is way more stealth than a fmic.

PS: have you ever grabbed your FMIC piping that sits right above your turbo? talk about heat soak.....

i was tuning my old room mates sti over the weekend (vf39+fmic+tbe+intake) and you couldnt even touch his intercooler piping after doing 1 4th gear WOT pull. My intercooler is cool to the touch after doing multiple pulls.....but i have a turbo blanket and meth spraying into the intake of my tmic. if your car is setup right a TMIC can work very well.
we went through auto zone and he bought some wrap and wrapped his piping....it worked wonders.

Last edited by Phatron; 12-02-2008 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:59 PM   #81
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well based on those comments you really have no idea how the intake air temperature timing compensation works.

the IAT sensor is in with the MAF sensor and still in the engine bay.....

the IAT Comp pulls timing based on the temp of the air coming through the intake, not the temp of the air after it passes the the intercooler (unless you're running a blow through MAF setup).

if you're stopped at a light or stop sign the tmic will heat soak, but the IAT timing comps will pull the same amount of timing on both cars.

if you're turbo is properly wrapped/shielded then heat seak is not very much of an issue. if you're running meth with the tmic, then the heat soak really isnt an issue.

i run FP Greens and tmic+meth on both my wrx and sti. staying tmic is way more stealth than a fmic.

PS: have you ever grabbed your FMIC piping that sits right above your turbo? talk about heat soak.....

i was tuning my old room mates sti over the weekend (vf39+fmic+tbe+intake) and you couldnt even touch his intercooler piping after doing 1 4th gear WOT pull. My intercooler is cool to the touch after doing multiple pulls.....but i have a turbo blanket and meth spraying into the intake of my tmic. if your car is setup right a TMIC can work very well.
we went through auto zone and he bought some wrap and wrapped his piping....it worked wonders.
the hotside of fmic piping does get VERY hot, however, the cold side stays ice cold
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:07 AM   #82
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You can't do it on pump, you'd have to run pump/meth on the street. Race gas should get you there with the right turbo. I'd hate to say it but the cheapest way to 500whp would be to mod an evo...
before or after the driveline falls out of the car? And both car's can be made fast with the same money. Just Evo's rev higher have longer gears sti's have more tq and shorter gear's.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:45 PM   #83
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the hotside of fmic piping does get VERY hot, however, the cold side stays ice cold
That's what Phatron is trying to say: while it's terrific that you get such efficient cooling, what determines the timing pull is how hot the IAT probe gets, not the intake temps. Unless you have a blow-thru MAF, that IAT is located pre-turbo, and unless you have a custom CAI sytem with the MAF stuck in the fender well, it's gonna get hotter than crap unless you take major steps to avoid its being totally heat soaked. Even then, it's a problem...I know, it happens on my setup in the summer and I have everything wrapped within an inch of its life.

If I park that puppy somewhere for 10 minutes, it pulls timing even with ambient air temps coming thru the pipes. And it stays that way until I get some good airflow going thru the engine bay for a couple of minutes - I've logged it, and it takes a while to come back back down.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:28 PM   #84
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But the car with a FMIC can have the IAT compensation table zeroed out or reduced significantly. Mine does not pull any timing till IATs reach 160f.
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:30 PM   #85
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^^ yes it can....the question is do most tuners change that? my guess would be no. people dont realize how much timing they actually pull after sitting at a stop light or staging lanes......id guess most people with untouched IAT tables are pulling 4-8* of timing almost all the way through first gear.....and maybe second depending on the ambient temp and how quickly the IAT drops.....it only took from 2000-4000rpm for and sti i tuned to go from -4* tp 0* IAT comp last weekend. so the iat went from 104*+ to ~70* in 2000rpm which isnt bad, but we had driven a miles first.....so the temp actually went from 140*+ down to 100* in a mile, then from 100 down to 70* during the pull. had we been at a drag strip id bet the IAT comps woulda been -8* all the way through first gear, then -4* in most of second and then getting to zero at the end of second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
the hotside of fmic piping does get VERY hot, however, the cold side stays ice cold
i wasnt talking about the hotside anyway....i was talking about the "coldside" of the intercooler piping that runs back over the turbine housing/downpipe on ALL clockwise FMIC designs.......i'd venture to say the piping was 120-160* after one WOT pull on the sti i mentioned above. after it was wrapped i'd say 70-80*.
most people believe that the air moves through the pipe to fast for it to make a difference.....i think that none of us know so why not throw some $5 wrap on it and be sure
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:28 PM   #86
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<== 3" ID counter-clockwise IC piping. I bet my hotside charge piping is cooler than a lot of peoples coldside piping when using a traditional fmic design
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:00 PM   #87
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i just really dont understand why all companies havent switched over to the counterclockwise design. you can almost just swap the pipes on most kits to make them counterclockwise...but then the bov flange is in the wrong spot.

i just dont understand.....its not like the production cost is any different....
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:21 PM   #88
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The guys that made my custom IC really really wanted to do the normal clockwise design because the piping layout was a lot easier and it didn't require a 90 degree elbow right off the compressor outlet.
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:59 PM   #89
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so that 90* bend is harder to make than the 6 other 90* bends in the system
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:35 PM   #90
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but then the bov flange is in the wrong spot.
there ARE perks to having the BOV on the hotside
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:28 PM   #91
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I think its kinda funny that the OP has 2 threads in PPB right now, this one and the "most bestest cams" thread. Both of which have lame direction/major fails yet still have people talking about good stuff,...
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:02 AM   #92
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The easiest way is a big shot of nitrous
+1!!!! DOO IT!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:25 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
there ARE perks to having the BOV on the hotside
Can you please elaborate on that statement. I am interested in the effects of placing the bov in the hot side piping.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:43 AM   #94
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Can you please elaborate on that statement. I am interested in the effects of placing the bov in the hot side piping.

yes I would also like to know
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:21 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
...most people believe that the air moves through the pipe to fast for it to make a difference.....i think that none of us know so why not throw some $5 wrap on it and be sure
I've never stuck in a probe to actually measure the difference, but I have about 1" left unwrapped right at the intake: before the wrapping job (reflective outer over traditional wrap) that section of the pipe would be toasty hot, whereas now it almost ambient. OTOH, I'm sure if you park it hot for a long time, it'll eventually soak thru.

One other thought on adjusting the tables to compensate: imo, this is nothing more than a slight safety buffer for a traditional street build. I figure anything you can do [or not do] to remain off the bleeding edge when you're already making in excess of 200bhp/litre is common sense. Just my $0.02.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:05 PM   #96
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Can you please elaborate on that statement. I am interested in the effects of placing the bov in the hot side piping.
the main purpose of a BOV is to relieve pressure on the compressor side of a turbocharger so it won't had surge or a rpm drop between shifts or when off-throttled.

If you put a BOV on the cold pipe or near the TB the pressure drop across the entire system has to flow through all the piping/bends, an intercooler and then through more bends to allow the drop at the compressor. You then also expell cooled air as it has come across the intercooler already.

If its on the hot side, the BOV causes a more immediate drop in the compressor housing pressure due to less head loss/flow restrictions between the two. This also causes and pressure drop on the cold pipe to have to travel back though the intercooler, which has a higher flow restriction via bends and IC. This helps to keep some charge in the cold pipe for quick shifts...see why WRC cars have a large pipe just prior to the TB...response.

Essentially you make the pressure gradient of the piping system in favor of the compressor. Having BOV at the TB makes the gradient be in favore of the TB, however useful that is.

These gains really are minimal but perks regardless.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:06 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
well based on those comments you really have no idea how the intake air temperature timing compensation works.

the IAT sensor is in with the MAF sensor and still in the engine bay.....

the IAT Comp pulls timing based on the temp of the air coming through the intake, not the temp of the air after it passes the the intercooler (unless you're running a blow through MAF setup).

if you're stopped at a light or stop sign the tmic will heat soak, but the IAT timing comps will pull the same amount of timing on both cars.

if you're turbo is properly wrapped/shielded then heat seak is not very much of an issue. if you're running meth with the tmic, then the heat soak really isnt an issue.

i run FP Greens and tmic+meth on both my wrx and sti. staying tmic is way more stealth than a fmic.

PS: have you ever grabbed your FMIC piping that sits right above your turbo? talk about heat soak.....

i was tuning my old room mates sti over the weekend (vf39+fmic+tbe+intake) and you couldnt even touch his intercooler piping after doing 1 4th gear WOT pull. My intercooler is cool to the touch after doing multiple pulls.....but i have a turbo blanket and meth spraying into the intake of my tmic. if your car is setup right a TMIC can work very well.
we went through auto zone and he bought some wrap and wrapped his piping....it worked wonders.

Phatron, I have an idea I may try out soon, lets see what you think, considering everyone else would probably think I'm nuts. I'm staying stock turbo for now, but I'm picking up a green really soon. I wanted to see how far
I could get with a green and meth on the stock topmount. It is a silly Idea, but I want to try and bust out some 11.5's on the stock tmic. Of course I'll throw an inlet and intake as well as injectors into the mix. EWG too.

I've had an sr55 before, but never meth. On pump it wasn't even faster than my racegas tune (on the stocker) and I would have to wait for the power, which I hated soooo much. I love getting thrown back by the massive torque hit on my 27-28psi map.
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