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Old 11-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default European regulations could outlaw ultra-wide high-performance tires




Quote:
New regulations in Europe could outlaw ultra-wide high-performance tires and it may be catastrophic for fast cars! There is a plan by the European Commission to limit tire rolling resistance to 10.5kg per ton by the year 2014, in an attempt to reduce vehicular emissions of CO2 by 5%. At present, only half of the tires on sale would meet the terms of the new law.

The law would like to reduce tire resistance to 12 kg/ton by 2012, and then 10.5kg/ton two years later in 2014. Since faster cars require larger rubber to accommodate their power, these will be the first to face the restrictions in 2012. To make yourself an idea about what tires supercars use, take a look at this list: Bugatti Veyron / 365mm; Ferrari Enzo / 345mm; Lamborghini Murcielago / 335mm; Porsche Carrera GT / 335mm; Maserati MC12 / 325mm.
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Old 11-30-2008, 03:32 PM   #2
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what about using 2 smaller tires, with an interlocking rim/tire design. im a geenus.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:19 PM   #3
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Yep. I can see it going that way like dualies.

--kC
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:44 PM   #4
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Been there.. done that.. never caught on. Pity, aside from the extra weight and expense.. it was a great idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp2XM_Yocug

http://cpa.hansenits.com/pictures-vl...-twintyre.html
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:26 PM   #5
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Ok enough, for the love of god when will these people quit.
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:16 AM   #6
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Way to target the problem... all those enzos are the problem... not the cars driving around with under inflated tires.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:08 AM   #7
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Just another event that convinces me I am living through the heyday of the supercar!
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico Flax View Post
Ok enough, for the love of god when will these people quit.
Once we're all driving one of these: Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:04 PM   #9
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there will be a way around..
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:24 PM   #10
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:yawn:

Talk about an alarmist blog entry (I wouldn't even call it "news") with next to no real information.

I guess, I'll worry about my Bugatti's tires in 2014 if this law even passes. But just for ha-ha's, what size tires will my neighbor have to buy for his Enzo if currently he runs 345 - how much resistance do those tires have?
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:30 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
:yawn:

Talk about an alarmist blog entry (I wouldn't even call it "news") with next to no real information.

I guess, I'll worry about my Bugatti's tires in 2014 if this law even passes. But just for ha-ha's, what size tires will my neighbor have to buy for his Enzo if currently he runs 345 - how much resistance do those tires have?
How much more information would you like.It starts in 2 years.
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:46 PM   #12
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^^ I posted what kind of info I would like.

They post up tire widths. And they post up a proposed (and that's all it is now) reduction in rolling resistance, but no correlation between the two. What kind of rolling resistance does a 345 width tire have? Or what about one more common cars have?
If this ONLY effects the Bugatti's and Enzo's of the world then I couldn't care less about all this.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:11 PM   #13
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God I hate environmentalists. They should all die in a pile of burning tires.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:37 PM   #14
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I think that dealers could work this to their advantage. Sell the car with legal pizza cutters on it for full price and offer the normal wheels and tires as a non-street legal "track only" option for even more $$$

I don't think that anyone who is buying one of these cars is going to care about the possible fix it ticket that they might get for running fat tires.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:00 PM   #15
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RRC depends on a lot of factors, including width, tire design, tread thickness, tire composition...

The NHTSA measured a number of tires. The RE92 in a 185/70R14 size had a rolling resistance of around 10.7 kg/ton. Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3s in 205/55R16 came in around 11.2 kg/ton.

Most passenger car tires fall somewhere between 7-15 kg/ton. Unfortunately, W, Y, and Z rated tires tend to be above 12 kg/ton; slower speed rated tires tend to have less rolling resistance.

Here's a link to the study - it's pretty dry reading:
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/sr/sr286.pdf
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
^^ I posted what kind of info I would like.

They post up tire widths. And they post up a proposed (and that's all it is now) reduction in rolling resistance, but no correlation between the two. What kind of rolling resistance does a 345 width tire have? Or what about one more common cars have?
If this ONLY effects the Bugatti's and Enzo's of the world then I couldn't care less about all this.
I also want to know the answers to those questions, to get an actual idea of what they're proposing.

The "answer" to your last line was in the OP, however:

Quote:
At present, only half of the tires on sale would meet the terms of the new law.
But we have no way to confirm that without the info we're looking for.
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:32 PM   #17
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Even if this were to be passed, it would likely be short lived after deaths on the highways increase.

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Originally Posted by hyperlitenerd View Post
Way to target the problem... all those enzos are the problem... not the cars driving around with under inflated tires.
I think you're confusing Europe with the US. Most Europeans I know keep their tires properly inflated...
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:33 PM   #18
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Take a peek at that link I posted (page 67 of the document or page 90 of the PDF). They surveyed ~160 tires, and the median rating was just about 10 kg/ton. However, they don't know if their sample is representative of all tires since it is pretty limited.

High performance tires (W, Y, and Z rated tires) averaged around 11.3 kg/ton.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:09 PM   #19
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I'm not really seeing how this would have much of an effect on pollution... Cars that have wider/stickier tires generally have a higher rolling resistance. High performance cars are usually the ones with wider/stickier tires. But the supercars and sports models that require these types of tires make up only a very small part of cars as a whole. And, for example, there is already a tax that increases with a car's level of pollution in the UK, so there is already a system to incentivise a smaller carbon footprint.

This is just another example of public "administrators" trying to put regulations in place on a subject they know little about. And somebody mentioned safety... I have to second that one, having larger sedans running around on narrow little tires is not going to have a positive effect on crash statistics. Either that or there will be a wierd work around, like supercars with dualie wheel arrangements... So you end up with more rolling resistance and heavier unsprung mass for more money which ends up polluting even more. Bravo.

Everybody has seen a dump truck with that useless dummy extra axle in the back, right? There's a great example of a waste of standard equipment just to meet a silly regulation that sets a requirement for a certain number of axles dependant on gross vehicle weight... Nevermind that tire technology has more than surpassed the limitations that existed in truck tires back when that regulation was put in place. A tire resistance law would probably spawn similar wacky results. Dualie cars. Tires with tread that sits even with the road at 40psi, but are designed to have the center bulge at 60psi to present a narrow contact patch, so the dealership recieves the car and just lets a little air out of the tires. Get ready to see funny crap like that.

Last edited by jhargis; 12-01-2008 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
Even if this were to be passed, it would likely be short lived after deaths on the highways increase.
How would eliminating ultrawide low-profile Lamborghini-sized tires cause a significant increase in highway death. So your implying that the majority of road going cars wear rubber like this and thus causing a greater danger?


And youre also implying that driving like a wannabe racer jackass has nothing to do with it.


Even more confusing because if you use the arguement that wider, stickier tires is better for bad road conditions (wet and snow) I always thought more narrow tires were better for those situations

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Old 12-01-2008, 06:47 PM   #21
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^^^
have you driven in Europe? I'm talking about braking and emergency handling.

Did you read the link that foxy posted? A 185/70R14 RE92 doesn't even pass.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
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A 185/70R14 RE92 doesn't even pass.
And all this time I thought the RE92 was good for one thing...low rolling resistance to increase EPA mileage stats. Turns out, it's not even good for that.

And I agree that this is bad for safety. Low resistance tires are low grip tires.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
^^^
have you driven in Europe? I'm talking about braking and emergency handling.

Did you read the link that foxy posted? A 185/70R14 RE92 doesn't even pass.
Yeah I have to second this one... Roads are much more twisty on average in Europe. I have driven in Europe. London is a nightmare, and Paris is 50 times worse than London, requiring near catlike reflexes to avoid accidents, decent handling is definitely preferred. Many sections of the autobahn require quite a bit of grip under the speeds at which many people drive, and the B or C roads can narrow down enough that you feel like you're driving on a twisty walkpath. The harder tire compounds needed to reach lower rolling resistance requirements are generally not very good in the wet. And in the really snowy parts of europe, people often use snow tires during the winter.
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