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Old 12-03-2008, 02:52 PM   #1
azn_ryder02
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Default fullrace GT3076 1.5 Scroll vs Blouch DOM III vs FullRace Twinscroll GT35R

Hi everyone right im on cobb ots stg 2 with crucialracing dp w/ hks carbon-ti cbe.

trying to decide on the next logical step in building my MY07 STI

my goal is to hit 400+ whp on 92 pump gas with out dipping under the stock torque curve.

I'm looking at the following:

Fullrace 1.5 Scroll Stock location GT3076 ext WG Kit

Blouch DOm III

Full Race Twinscroll GT25R rotated kit

I know the GT3076 ext WG and the blouch DOM III are comparable
but my tuner has told me that original Garrett turbos will always produce more power and torque than custom built hybrid turbos(the latter might build boost faster but that doesnt mean it has the same power at the same boost levels)

i was on the fullrace website and saw their twinscroll GT35r kit the site said that they had discontinued their twinscroll GT30 bcoz the 35r performed close to the 30 but produced more power.

has anyone had any experience with any of these kits. tuners opinions greatly appreciated.

DYNOgraphs are extremely valued.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:30 PM   #2
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No offense, but hitting anywhere near 400whp without dipping under the stock torque curve is going to be next to impossible, especially towards the lower end of the powerband.

What are your other goals? Street car? Drag? Auto X?
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:47 PM   #3
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There are about 50 turbos you can use, stop visiting websites and start reading the Turbo FAQ. You have a WHP goal, which is great....now find the turbo that will net you that based on turbo vendors' and your tuner's advice. Without doing serious number crunching you should be looking in the 52lb/min turbo size area and there are many choices in that range from FP, Deadbolt, Blouch, and others. Find the lb/min turbo you need, then email the vendors and see what they say. Deadbolt is the only vendor here that supports NASIOC, so I'm siding with him as your go to guy.
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Old 12-03-2008, 06:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zer0psi View Post
No offense, but hitting anywhere near 400whp without dipping under the stock torque curve is going to be next to impossible, especially towards the lower end of the powerband.

I may have to disagree with that. He said stock. Meaning stock everything, including tune. I thought i saw a graph from p&l showing their 3071 rotated kit giving more power EVERYWHERE on the graph over bone stock, if anything, it was down maybe 30-50 lb/ft on the bottom, and that turbo combined with some good heads, some AWI and some nifty little tomei 252's (yeah, i know you love them!!!) should offer a GREAT package that will get him very very near his 400whp goal.

I mention the head work because the money he saves by getting a standard rotated kit over the FR stuff could be used to get some good heads AND cams.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:31 AM   #5
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i was under the impression that the dom III and GT3076 were 52lb/min turbos
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:33 AM   #6
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this will be street/road race car and i correct myself i dont wanna sacrifice too much on the torque curve
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azn_ryder02 View Post
i was under the impression that the dom III and GT3076 were 52lb/min turbos
They are. See anything to the contrary? Just curious.
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azn_ryder02 View Post
i was under the impression that the dom III and GT3076 were 52lb/min turbos
Quote:
Originally Posted by zer0psi View Post
They are. See anything to the contrary? Just curious.
He's talking about una's post telling him to look for a 52lb/min turbo. If you can sacrifice alittle torque, then yeah, you'll easily get what you're looking for with any of those setups. More lag obviously with the 35r setup.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:19 AM   #9
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If you want 400whp, the 1.5 scroll should do just find an give quicker spool than the Dom 3, reason being it has the an efficient header/up pipe design.
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:32 PM   #10
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does the full race 1.5 setup come with an ewg on the uppipe? I would think that would be a much better performing setup than cramming all the exhaust flow into the 1.7" or so inlet of the turbo and using the garret ewg cast housing. that housing has got to have more backpressure then using your run of the mill ewg setup off the uppipe
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmurphy View Post
does the full race 1.5 setup come with an ewg on the uppipe? I would think that would be a much better performing setup than cramming all the exhaust flow into the 1.7" or so inlet of the turbo and using the garret ewg cast housing. that housing has got to have more backpressure then using your run of the mill ewg setup off the uppipe
No, it has the WG on the turbo. This doesnt actually cause more backpressure, boost control just isnt as precise. For a 3076 its not a bad setup, but for something larger(35R+) should have the WG elsewhere.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:26 PM   #12
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I was where you are about a year ago. My goal was as close to stage 2 like throttle response with a 2006+ corvette z06 power. Here is my input.

Many things affect spool, size of the compressor wheel, size of the turbine, altitude, fuel, etc... When choosing a rotated 30R you have the choice of a .64 A/R or the .82 A/R. People will always recommend the .84 as it will allow for more top end power. The bigger the A/R the less back pressure you have so more power can be made.

With the Blouch Dominator III you share the same compressor wheel size and rotating assembly (ball bearing) but it is a frankenstein turbo where Garrett and Mitsubishi are bolted together. So instead of Area/Radius (A/R) you get the choice of 7cm^2 or 8cm^2. The math equates the 8cm^2 to be around a .59 A/R. So you will get good spool up characteristics as it has a smaller turbine for the exhaust gases to move, but once you reach higher revs you will choke the motor compared to the rotated .82 A/R.

I personally went with the Blouch Dom III and further stayed TMIC (APS) which I took a crap load of heat from this board for. I have had the setup on my car for 9,000 miles. it has been to multiple dragstrip days, and a couple road course days. I can honestly tell you that the DOM III is VERY capable of doing the same or maybe ever so slightly under the rotated.

On the below dyno sheet I was able to stay neck and neck with a porsche 911 turbo S on a 3/4 mile straight on the road course. This dyno is on race fuel and 24 psi peak tapering to around 20 psi. I could have made more power, but we were getting concerned with intake manifold temps.

I am in the process of doing Methanol/water injection and my tuner is very confident that on Race fuel and Meth I will be in the 410-420 range for whp. Stock STi's do around 205-215 whp on this dyno. A Corvette Z06 did 403 whp. This is my dyno... you will notice the torq curve. I hit 280 WHEEL torq by 3800 rpm. in all honesty, first gear is a bit laggy, other than that the throttle response is similar to stock feel. With Meth my tuner thinks we can get it spooling another 200-300 rpm faster.

EDIT: pump gas here in UTAH is 91 octane. pump fuel I am at 330/330 on 21 psi tapering to about 18.5. My goal is to break into the 11's. Which doesn't seem hard for you see level boys, but up here in the mountains you lose 10-15% of your power. Vipers, z06's and porsches all rund high high 12's to mid 13's. Also note this is a Mustang dyno and not some 5% drivetrain loss dyno jet. We lose 25%+ crank to wheel hp on this dyno for AWD vehicles.

Last edited by Stames_wiltz; 12-04-2008 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:36 PM   #13
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I know it has the wastegate on the turbo, as I've sold a couple. But what Im saying is the flow charecteristics between having all the flow go into the turbo through the smaller inlet as opposed to having a portion go through the turbo and the rest go through an ewg off the uppipe. Having the ewg off the uppipe has got to favored in terms of flow and back pressure which will in return give better performance.

It would be interesting to see the difference in both setups
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stames_wiltz View Post
I was where you are about a year ago. My goal was as close to stage 2 like throttle response with a 2006+ corvette z06 power. Here is my input.

Many things affect spool, size of the compressor wheel, size of the turbine, altitude, fuel, etc... When choosing a rotated 30R you have the choice of a .64 A/R or the .82 A/R. People will always recommend the .84 as it will allow for more top end power. The bigger the A/R the less back pressure you have so more power can be made.

With the Blouch Dominator III you share the same compressor wheel size and rotating assembly (ball bearing) but it is a frankenstein turbo where Garrett and Mitsubishi are bolted together. So instead of Area/Radius (A/R) you get the choice of 7cm^2 or 8cm^2. The math equates the 8cm^2 to be around a .59 A/R. So you will get good spool up characteristics as it has a smaller turbine for the exhaust gases to move, but once you reach higher revs you will choke the motor compared to the rotated .82 A/R.

I personally went with the Blouch Dom III and further stayed TMIC (APS) which I took a crap load of heat from this board for. I have had the setup on my car for 9,000 miles. it has been to multiple dragstrip days, and a couple road course days. I can honestly tell you that the DOM III is VERY capable of doing the same or maybe ever so slightly under the rotated.

On the below dyno sheet I was able to stay neck and neck with a porsche 911 turbo S on a 3/4 mile straight on the road course. This dyno is on race fuel and 24 psi peak tapering to around 20 psi. I could have made more power, but we were getting concerned with intake manifold temps.

I am in the process of doing Methanol/water injection and my tuner is very confident that on Race fuel and Meth I will be in the 410-420 range for whp. Stock STi's do around 205-215 whp on this dyno. A Corvette Z06 did 403 whp. This is my dyno... you will notice the torq curve. I hit 280 WHEEL torq by 3800 rpm. in all honesty, first gear is a bit laggy, other than that the throttle response is similar to stock feel. With Meth my tuner thinks we can get it spooling another 200-300 rpm faster.

EDIT: pump gas here in UTAH is 91 octane. pump fuel I am at 330/330 on 21 psi tapering to about 18.5. My goal is to break into the 11's. Which doesn't seem hard for you see level boys, but up here in the mountains you lose 10-15% of your power. Vipers, z06's and porsches all rund high high 12's to mid 13's. Also note this is a Mustang dyno and not some 5% drivetrain loss dyno jet. We lose 25%+ crank to wheel hp on this dyno for AWD vehicles.
thanks for the input that helps clarify things a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmurphy View Post
I know it has the wastegate on the turbo, as I've sold a couple. But what Im saying is the flow charecteristics between having all the flow go into the turbo through the smaller inlet as opposed to having a portion go through the turbo and the rest go through an ewg off the uppipe. Having the ewg off the uppipe has got to favored in terms of flow and back pressure which will in return give better performance.

It would be interesting to see the difference in both setups
i also agree anybody whos had experiance with these setups please chime in
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:12 PM   #15
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also the reason i bring up the Twinscroll 35R setup is the i know that the larger turbo will be a lot laggier than the GT3076 or DOM III but the has the WG onthe uppipe and its a full rotated setup and its twinscroll coupled with the fullrace EL twinscroll manifold. i thought with all that it would help with the response of the larger GT35R
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:27 PM   #16
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maybe a little, 35R's typically spool at 4500 rpm in 4th gear, to really benefit from the 35R, you need to build the engine.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azn_ryder02 View Post
the reason i bring up the Twinscroll 35R setup is the i know that the larger turbo will be a lot laggier than the GT3076 or DOM III but the has the WG onthe uppipe and its a full rotated setup and its twinscroll coupled with the fullrace EL twinscroll manifold. i thought with all that it would help with the response of the larger GT35R
you are actually incorrect on this! our twinscroll 35R will outspool a singlescroll 30R... if you want no lag, instant power, and a big number, twinscroll is the way to do it.
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:10 AM   #18
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couple of things i can add here...

1) its very possible to stay above the STOCK tq curve.....just search proven power bragging for stage 1 results....our stock cars are hindered by the cats and smaller exhaust and its easy to make a lot more tq and earlier than stock

2) anything below a 60 lb/min turbo wont get you there on pump gas....pump + meth or race gas easily but you're not gonna hit 400whp on 91-93 octane on a dyno dynamics or mustang on pump...on a dynojet you could...it takes my Green'd sti 95 octane + meth to get to 400whp on a lower reading dyno

a quick search of ppb will reveal that most gt35's barely crack 400whp on low reading dynos on pump gas

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=gt35

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=gt35

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=gt35


of course with the right combo of parts....headwork, fr manifold, cams, built motor, reversed manifold, etc may get you there on pump (maybe even easily)..........its possible if you got the cash
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:25 AM   #19
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With the GT35R, your going to get more turbo lag than the GT30. The 30 spools just as much as the 35 but quicker
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
you are actually incorrect on this! our twinscroll 35R will outspool a singlescroll 30R... if you want no lag, instant power, and a big number, twinscroll is the way to do it.

thank you geoff for chiming in!!

is there anyway for you to back this claim??
dyno graphs??
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:42 AM   #21
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heres is one of full races twinscroll 4088Rs hitting 20psi at 4300 rpm.....i've seen this car in person, the kit is pretty. if you compare that to the single scroll 35's i linked above, you can imagine what a twinscroll 35 will do....incase you didnt know the 4088 is bigger.....

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=twinscroll
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmurphy View Post
does the full race 1.5 setup come with an ewg on the uppipe? I would think that would be a much better performing setup than cramming all the exhaust flow into the 1.7" or so inlet of the turbo and using the garret ewg cast housing. that housing has got to have more backpressure then using your run of the mill ewg setup off the uppipe
What he said.

A conventional EWG will vent about half the exhaust at WOT/redline, so (if used with a large-ish up-pipe) it will make the turbo's exhaust housing inlet restriction less of an issue.
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
you are actually incorrect on this! our twinscroll 35R will outspool a singlescroll 30R... if you want no lag, instant power, and a big number, twinscroll is the way to do it.
I would love to see dyno plots that illustrate this. Seriously. I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 12-05-2008, 12:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I would love to see dyno plots that illustrate this. Seriously. I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!
DITTO !
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:31 PM   #25
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It would be nice to see it on a stock block also
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