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Old 12-08-2008, 11:50 AM   #1
T_Racer69
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Default Auto-X, Time Trial Helmet legality

I was at an autocross this weekend, and they mentioned that this would be the last event for it. Well okay, had a good run.
But I got to looking at the rules, SCCA as that is where I mostly run, and looking at the GCR for them. I was unclear on the rules, but they specifically state that the current plus the previous two are legal. I have an SA95 helmet rating. The new snell SA2010 has been pushed back, for release date to October 2010 release date. So, that would mean that I have until October 2010 to get a new helmet, correct?
I will contact SCCA for clarification as well, but just see if anyone else has run across this.

cheers,
Travis

P.S. Dont interpret this as cheap, the helmet has never been impacted, burnt, etc. as I realize that this requires helmet replacement.
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:24 PM   #2
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Yup, when 2010 gets released, you are SOL. So you can "legally" run that helmet until that point.

Just realized that time also makes the foam and materials degrade. Having said that, I would have 0 qualms about using that helmet for Autox, but would not use it for Time Trials, where the risks/wrecks are just about as high as road racing. Its your head/spine/life, is it worth the $2-3k in safety equipment to possibly save your life? Only you can decide

-Tom
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:45 PM   #3
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And I agree, I am not taking away from proper safety equipment. Granted, this helmet has spent its entire life inside my house, in a closet, when not racing, not in the garage or outside deteroirating. I am just looking to get another year out of this one. It is a Simpson, so a quality piece to begin with, that was redone in 2001 to convert from M rating to SA rating. thanks, just wanted clarification.

Cheers,
Travis
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Racer69 View Post
that was redone in 2001 to convert from M rating to SA rating.
Wait, what? Thats built into the design and structure of the helmet, no?

M = helmet made for 1 big impact and slide.
SA = helmet made for lots of little ones.

At least thats what I've read in the past.

-Tom
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe View Post
Wait, what? Thats built into the design and structure of the helmet, no?

M = helmet made for 1 big impact and slide.
SA = helmet made for lots of little ones.

At least thats what I've read in the past.

-Tom
Snell testing for M helmets has 2 impacts while SA adds a third.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
I have an SA95 helmet rating.
Yep. Good until the 2010s come out. (You can't change M to SA ratings, the helmets are constructed differently.) Unless someone just switched the stickers...

--kC
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe View Post
Wait, what? Thats built into the design and structure of the helmet, no?

M = helmet made for 1 big impact and slide.
SA = helmet made for lots of little ones.

At least thats what I've read in the past.

-Tom
I could be wrong... but I thought the SA had a fire retardant cloth liner, while the M does not.
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Old 12-08-2008, 01:26 PM   #8
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sa does have additional fire retardant layer. Testing is different. I'm sure there are some helmets out there that shell is rated as M, but compliant to SA, had it gone through the testing.
Bottom line, a few extra bucks for SA isn't a bad choice. Wait a bit and you will be able to pick up the sa 2005 for short money.
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Old 12-08-2008, 04:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sachilles View Post
sa does have additional fire retardant layer. Testing is different. I'm sure there are some helmets out there that shell is rated as M, but compliant to SA, had it gone through the testing.
Bottom line, a few extra bucks for SA isn't a bad choice. Wait a bit and you will be able to pick up the sa 2005 for short money.
Yup, right when they roll out the SA2010 helmets
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:16 PM   #10
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I got my helmet at Driving impressions and they are on sale now... check them out. Really nice people there. http://www.teamdi.com/ Talk to Steven
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:28 AM   #11
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Yes, I originally bought it as an M helmet, nylon liner. But when I realized that I needed an SA rating, I saw somewhere that Simpson could convert the liner. Apparently, the shell is SA rated already, just had a less expensive nylon liner. I trust Simpson and their devotion to safety, and feel confident that they would not just change the liner and put a new sticker in if the shell did not meet standards. So a one week trip to Simpson, and my new SA helmet arrived back to me.

Travis
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe View Post
Yup, when 2010 gets released, you are SOL. So you can "legally" run that helmet until that point.
This may not be the case.. or at least reading the Snell site it shouldn't be the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by the Snell Website
The transition from the 2005 standards to M, SA and K 2010 will be more difficult than in previous standards revisions. In general, certification to the new standard will not assure that the same model also meets the requirements of the previous standard. Furthermore, many of the 2005 certified models will require extensive modification to meet Snell 2010 standards. For these reasons, the Foundation proposes a longer transition period. M2010, SA2010 and K2010 will begin a year early. The first units may be offered for sale as early as October 1, 2009. And M2005, SA2005 and K2005 will continue for a year longer than usual. Manufacturers will not be required to stop production of these helmets until March 31, 2012.
Essentially, the 2005 standards are not going out of date until 2012 - meaning that two previous generations will be Snell 95 until 2012...

Now who knows if SCCA/NASA/other clubs will be watching this, or care.. but it's someting to be aware of.

Also note - Snell suggests you replace your helmet every five years anyway. Sweat, wearing the helmet, etc all put wear and tear on the helmet and it's parts.. wear that could affect its usefullness.


Jon K
(who has a "still legal" Snell Helmet that has been worn so much the insides are coming apart.. that one sits on the shelf)
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
Essentially, the 2005 standards are not going out of date until 2012 - meaning that two previous generations will be Snell 95 until 2012...

Now who knows if SCCA/NASA/other clubs will be watching this, or care.. but it's someting to be aware of.
I'm reading that differently: if Snell 10 helmets go on sale in October 2009, the Snell 95 helmets become obsolete at that time. Why does the continued production of Snell 05 helmets have anything to do with it?
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:02 PM   #14
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Don't forget that they also have an allowance for SFI and BS (British Standard) helmets in SCCA Solo and Club racing rules.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
I'm reading that differently: if Snell 10 helmets go on sale in October 2009, the Snell 95 helmets become obsolete at that time. Why does the continued production of Snell 05 helmets have anything to do with it?

Because usually they would stop "approving" the previous generation at the time of release of the next gen. In this case, they are still going to "approve" Snell 05s for a couple of years..

Because Snell 05s would still be one of the "current" models, I would figure that the Snell 95s would not yet be more than two generations out of date - because from 2009 - 2012 there will be two "curent" snell ratings...

Not saying the SCCA and other clubs will do that.. it's just food for thought.


Jon K
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:08 AM   #16
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Jon,

The wording is current + 2 prior.

When the '10s come out they are the 'current' and the '95s are now 3 out, no longer valid. Your stance may have validity in '20 when the '05 are due to 'expire' because of it's stay of execution (production) was extended.

Just because they extend the '05 has no weight in killing off the 95's because the current one is now '10.

--kC
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:11 AM   #17
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Jon,

The wording is current + 2 prior.

When the '10s come out they are the 'current' and the '95s are now 3 out, no longer valid. Your stance may have validity in '20 when the '05 are due to 'expire' because of it's stay of execution (production) was extended.

Just because they extend the '05 has no weight in killing off the 95's because the current one is now '10.

--kC
That's the thing.. because the Snell foundation will still be giving out the Snell 05 stickers until 2012 there will be two concurring current certifications - Snell 05 and Snell 10.

The Snell 05 will still be current until 2012 according to the Snell Foundation.

Usually when the next generation comes out the previous one is gone. (Like the quote says, "Manufacturers will not be required to stop production of these helmets until March 31, 2012.")

There is another section somewhere on the Snell site (can't find it right now) that talks about the 05s being good still but the tests are changing for some European DOT regulations.

Essentially there is usually a 14-year "life" of a Snell certification within the sanctioning bodies. Because there will be two "currents" untill 2012, there should be a 17-year "life" this go around. By the time 2020 comes around, we will be back to the 14-year lifespan. Because no matter what happens then, Snell 05s will be the second previous generation and no longer in production, so they will be gone. The difference there is you might buy a helmet in 2012 that is "current" and have to get rid of it eight years later, so you would have a shorter rules-life of your helmet.


Jon
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:24 AM   #18
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Current + 2 previous. The '05, being in the middle, bears no weight in dropping the '95 because the '10 is now the current one. Just because it exists, is out, is available, kills the '95s.

'10 + '05 + '00.

Them extending the '05 has no bearing on the '95s.

Quote:
The difference there is you might buy a helmet in 2012 that is "current" and have to get rid of it eight years later, so you would have a shorter rules-life of your helmet.
Yep. But there's 12 years to think about what to do with the '05s when that time comes... (I'm all for extending the '05s 12 years from now as a one-time extension) but as far as the '95s, they're dead once the '10s exist.

--kC
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