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Old 12-10-2008, 02:13 PM   #1
the_unknown
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Default Big 3 bailout

Found this on digg and got a few chuckles from it.
read the fine print
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...***ty-cars.php

Edit: replace the four asteriks with the curse word for poop, the damn filter is killing it
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Last edited by the_unknown; 12-10-2008 at 02:20 PM. Reason: links broked!
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:15 PM   #2
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They are only getting $15bn though :-p

We will get that last laugh when they go under.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:24 PM   #3
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I really don't think so. They're so many people employed by the Big Three. If anything it'll help increase the unemployment if they didn't get the bail-out. As much as I hate those idiotic greedy CEO's and their creations.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:37 PM   #4
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Yeah, if they go under, it's going to take the rest of us with them. I don't understand how the government can bail out the useless financial industry who CAUSED the current problem but, not bailout the car companies. For the record, I've been very happy with my Ford and Chevy trucks. Other than the Solstice or the G8 and maybe new Mustang, the American car companies just don't build CARS that I might buy. Then again, Honda has lost me as a buyer too.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
Yeah, if they go under, it's going to take the rest of us with them. I don't understand how the government can bail out the useless financial industry who CAUSED the current problem but, not bailout the car companies. For the record, I've been very happy with my Ford and Chevy trucks. Other than the Solstice or the G8 and maybe new Mustang, the American car companies just don't build CARS that I might buy. Then again, Honda has lost me as a buyer too.
QFT. I would love to be patriotic and support american car makers but the fact of the matter is this: I don't see any car they make that interests me. I want AWD for winter and a fair amount of power to make driving the car fun. The only options in the american market for me are Subaru, Mitsu, and Porchse .

As for bailouts, I don't think we should have bailed anyone out. Its supposed to be a free economy and it will right itself out. If companies fail, then new companies will sprout up and take their place. When you support aging failing companies with bailouts, innovation is lost IMO. Look at Jet Blue for example, they popped up and offer some of the best deals with the best planes (watch TV the whole flight? Sweet!) I haven't flown anywhere lately but a year ago, their prices were really good.

Anyways I'm not sure if people read the link but i got a kick out of the subaru mention.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:48 PM   #6
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In the short run, yes we do need them. But thinking down the line 50 years, I find it hard to believe that the Big Three will still be 'American' companies. They will probably end up getting bought by someone else. Whether its a straight up buy out, or someone taking a majority stake in them, its bound to happen.

I whole heartily agree that those CEOs need to step down. My biggest pet peeve with auto industry as a whole (on a global scale) is the rebadging of cars. I understand why they do it and why it makes perfect financial sense, but I just don't like it. And in terms of the Big Three, I just don't understand why the sell crappy cars here. I wouldn't mind buying a Ford Mondeo or a Focus ST or Focus RS. I have driven all three cars and they are a lot better than the Ford 500/Taurus and the Focus they sell here.
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Old 12-10-2008, 03:03 PM   #7
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Old 12-10-2008, 03:26 PM   #8
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^^ Hah, I'm an idiot, I did it the hard way. Thanks for fixing it for me!
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Old 12-10-2008, 03:41 PM   #9
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The major problem I have with this bailout is not with the people who run the companies themselves. I blame the unions and the us government. I blame the unions for forcing higher and higher wages while forcing the companies to provide huge pension plans for retirees. Foriegn companies are not effected by this yet due to the length of time they been here. Then the govt forcing unreasonable standards that prevent alot of well built cars from being sold here that will make a profit. Gm has a small car in Europe that gets 50 mpg but can't be sold here. If you take the union and the govt out of the equations the big three wouldn't be in crisis mode. Just my 2 cents, if there are any grammer mistakes this was typed on a phone.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:31 PM   #10
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there are cars that I think are good cars from the big 3, mostly being trucks and suv's.

Ford has: Focus RS, competitively priced I would definately look at it as my next car if they bring it stateside

Chrysler has: Viper ACR (duh)

GM has: z06 (duh), pontiac G6 sedan, and I honestly like their kappa platform roadsters
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #11
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Not totally off-topic from this thread, but I want GM to go under just so I can get a Pontiac G6 GT cheap as **** and run the hell out of it til it blows up.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by thepeppler08 View Post
Not totally off-topic from this thread, but I want GM to go under just so I can get a Pontiac G6 GT cheap as **** and run the hell out of it til it blows up.
That's stupid. You're hoping the best for your own greedy ambition than other people's well-being.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:57 PM   #13
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That's stupid. You're hoping the best for your own greedy ambition than other people's well-being.
^^ isn't that the american way?
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:16 PM   #14
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That's what caused this crisis in the first place. People only caring about themselves on Wall Street and Congress in the pockets of their lobbyists. If GM or Ford goes away, I wonder what happens to the dealers and all of our warranty's? If they declare bankruptcy, they probably can tell anyone wanting warranty repair to go F themselves.

I think GM and Ford were both pretty close to turning it around before they got hit by the double whammy, high gas prices killed their truck sales and tight credit means people aren't buying any of their other cars.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:33 PM   #15
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It's real simple why they bailed out the financial sector and are fighting over the auto industry. The financial sector controls pretty much everything. Credit, mortages, Congress (). They pretty much can bully anyone into giving them what they want because we as citizens have allowed them to gain all that friggin' power.

Personally, I say let them all burn, but it'll just make things even worse. We're screwed either way
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kileryoyo View Post
The major problem I have with this bailout is not with the people who run the companies themselves. I blame the unions and the us government. I blame the unions for forcing higher and higher wages while forcing the companies to provide huge pension plans for retirees. Foriegn companies are not effected by this yet due to the length of time they been here. Then the govt forcing unreasonable standards that prevent alot of well built cars from being sold here that will make a profit. Gm has a small car in Europe that gets 50 mpg but can't be sold here. If you take the union and the govt out of the equations the big three wouldn't be in crisis mode. Just my 2 cents, if there are any grammer mistakes this was typed on a phone.

Bingo!
And if they go bankrupt, they can restructure more solidly with LESS union BS dragging them down. Sorry, but unions for the most part are antiquated.
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by marcmtb35 View Post
Bingo!
And if they go bankrupt, they can restructure more solidly with LESS union BS dragging them down. Sorry, but unions for the most part are antiquated.
I disagree and believe this opinion is based on the opinion of the uaw only. Yes they have been stubborn and unwilling to give up some stuff to help the company, and give a bad image of unions. You better believe the company you work for doesnt give a crap about your wages or benefits though and will take whatever they can get away with.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:49 AM   #18
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I disagree and believe this opinion is based on the opinion of the uaw only. Yes they have been stubborn and unwilling to give up some stuff to help the company, and give a bad image of unions. You better believe the company you work for doesnt give a crap about your wages or benefits though and will take whatever they can get away with.

...Exactly. So I have to work my ass off to earn my keep day in and day out. The way it should be!
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:39 PM   #19
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As some stated, the sad part is the entirety of layoffs that would ensue from the 3 going under. Not to mention the benefits for the retired workers (which is apparently where the largest spending is taking place). IIRC, that would be a combined estimate of 900,000 unemployed under the UAW. Not pretty and of course, that would impact everyone.

We have seen this coming for nearly 20 years with the Big 3 though. They continued to make big and less efficient, but many Americans have thyemselves to blame for supporting this with their sales. There is plenty of blame to go around. The finger pointing and so on could go on for days with that blame game. Looking in from the outside and getting the last laugh since I drive a Subaru and an ISUZU isn't valid since not only does the bailout affect me, but so would them going under. In retrospect, it's a lose/lose situation.

Those fat, rich, white men flew into DC a few weeks ago on their private jets to stand in the Congress soup line looking for a handout and the world just gaped in awe. What they walked away with was probably enough to keep them operating (if they get REALLY tight) for a maximum of 6 months. I don;t know if that is enough time for them to turn things around without a MAJOR restructure.

I am more than happy to help pay some extra in taxes for "their" bailout.... if they give me a Z06 (or better yet, a new ZR1) for $100.

And otherwise related, I heard about a Saturn dealer in Indiana that was liquidating. Apparently, if you buy a new Saturn, you get one free. This doesn't apply to the Sky Redline though. Can anyone validate this?
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by thepeppler08 View Post
Not totally off-topic from this thread, but I want GM to go under just so I can get a Pontiac G6 GT cheap as **** and run the hell out of it til it blows up.
Great idea. That way you can pay to fix it being they go bankrupt and shut down.
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Old 12-11-2008, 06:35 PM   #21
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Great idea. That way you can pay to fix it being they go bankrupt and shut down.
I don't plan on fixing it. I will run it hard until it blows up, then part out all the stock pieces that are still in working order to all these other people that have the same car and no parts because they went under.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:34 PM   #22
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My opinion is that there should not be any assistance offered to these companies. They have been having problems for many years now, and have done very little to fix it. Ford has done morethan the other two, and as a result has more capital to survive this.

If Chrysler and/or chevy go under, people will lose their jobs and it would be difficult for them. But, the desire to own a vehicle is still in the heart of most Americans, so the demand would shift to another automaker. The skills from those individuals that lost their jobs, are still needed, so they could go work for a better managed company.

Personally, if I worked for GM or Chrysler, my resumes would be already be at Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru, BMW and all the other companies that manufacture cars in the US. In other words: If the company that I worked for was poorly managed and I saw that they produced crap, then I would go work for a more reputable company.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:59 PM   #23
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Quoted For Truth:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?pa...s_iv_ctrl=2703

"Save the Big Three, Kill the U.S. Auto Market
December 4, 2008

Washington, D.C.--Advocates of a bailout for the Big Three claim that if we allow these giants to fail, it will destroy the U.S. auto industry. “In fact,” said Alex Epstein, an analyst at the Ayn Rand Institute, “it is the bailout, a veritable marriage between Detroit and Washington, that will destroy the U.S. auto industry.

“The Big Three have no right to demand that taxpayers risk money on them when private investors won’t. They do, however, have a right to demand the repeal of the policies that have helped destroy the auto industry. These include the labor laws that have forced them to acquiesce to economically catastrophic UAW demands, and fuel economy laws that have forced them to produce small cars that they can’t profit from given their labor costs. Indeed, the Big Three should have done this long ago--so that they would have been free to produce desirable cars at a profit in America, just as they do in scores of countries around the world.

“But instead of demanding their freedom and making a case to the market, the automakers are surrendering even more of their freedom to the government in exchange for taxpayer money. They have met Congress’s demand to commit to producing more small cars--even though it is small cars that have bankrupted the companies in the first place.

“By seeking handouts, not freedom, the auto industry is helping to destroy any remnant of a genuine auto market. In a real market, free companies would make money by producing the cars that free individuals judge best. In the new pseudo market, companies will make money by collecting taxpayer dollars in exchange for making whatever cars Washington tells them to. If this is what it means to save the U.S. auto industry, then the industry should die, and then real, freedom-seeking, profit-making companies might emerge.”
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:47 PM   #24
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I heard on the radio today, that world-wide GM and Toyota sold roughly the same number of cars (a little over 9 million cars) in 2007. The results? Toyota posted something like a $14.9 Billion profit, GM? $38.7 Billion LOSS. Seems GM's getting more than just a little wrong here.

The Big 3 have got themselves into this mess, let them get themselves out. The financial industry bailout was wrong, let's not repeat that mistake with the auto industry. (And hopefully, shut down any further bailouts of the financial industry.)
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:35 PM   #25
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Im not sure we can even call it the big 3 bailout Ford said they will tap the loan money as they have enough operating revenue to survive. I do tend to agree the bailout is not a good idea. GM will burn through the bailout money in no time and then will probably end up in bankruptcy anyway which might be good for them. Hopefully they could reorganize better and I think there is always the possibility they would be bought out. The names of chevy, pontiac, etc i think have value in the name. Wasnt it MG/Rover that went under and MG was bought mainly for the trademark.
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