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Old 12-11-2008, 10:20 AM   #1
2superblus
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Default How does your Auto-X club/region deal with Street tires?

I am trying to compile a list of how the SCCA Regions and Auto-X clubs across the country deal with guys that show up on street tires. I would also like to find out how many of them run Street Tire Classes other than STS2 (for 2009 STS), STS (for 2009 ST), STX, STU.

Next question would be, do they run a special Pax to adjust for Street Tires or just the standard RTP Pax that everyone else uses?

The ones locally for me are:

Milwaukee Region SCCA (http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/solo2.html) - F (FWD/AWD street tire) and R (RWD street tire), all competitors run the race tire RTP paxed index.
They averaged 132.8 entries per event (not counting the National Tour) with an average of 42.8 driver per event raced in the F or R class.

WAI (Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc. http://www.waiautox.org/ ) - F (FWD street tire), A (AWD street tire) and R (RWD street tire),all competitors run the race tire RTP paxed index. They averaged 113.3 entries per event with an average of 39.1 driver per event raced in the F,A or R class.

Chicago Region SCCA ( http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/)- S (RWD/FWD/AWD street tire),all competitors run the race tire RTP paxed index.

TSSCC (Tri State Sports Car Club http://www.tsscc.org/) - ST,STL (for the ladies) (RWD/FWD/AWD street tire),all competitors run the race tire RTP paxed index.
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Last edited by 2superblus; 12-11-2008 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Added some stats per event.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:25 AM   #2
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OVR scca got a street tire class for street mod this year, thats about all i know...
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:26 AM   #3
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We ridicule them for not being serious about autocross, then whip them by 2 seconds.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:30 AM   #4
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New England SCCA: SCCA rules. No other Street tire classes other than ST*. You run with your appropriate class. If you're stock, on street tires, odds are good you'd be suggested to run stock classes. Modded? If you fit ST, you run ST. If not, you run where you belong. No need to create additional classes. Ie: if you're just showing up with street tires, you're learning what auto-x is about. Why have extra classes to stay separated from the actual classes SCCA runs? (If it's a 350Z or S2000, you can run STU). IMHO, having other classes delays the integration of those folks into actual SCCA classes. You can have just as much fun within an SCCA class as you would if the region just made up other classes too.

Boston BMW: They have classes specific to BMWs, and some with and without r-comps. Then there's 5 classes for other cars: Stock with R-comps. Stock without R-Comps. Modified (ST+SP) with R-comps. Modified (ST+SP) without R-comps. And non street cars (Ie: Prepared and Mod). All non-BMWs are paxed based on Rick Ruths pax.

There are other marque specific clubs and they all have classes based on r-comp or not r-comp.

--kC
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:48 AM   #5
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CNY: Run where your class puts you. No street tire special classes
FLR: Run where your class puts you. Optional "Road Tire" class (indexed)
Glen: Run where your class puts you (IIRC)
SNY: Run where your class puts you (IIRC)

FLR started the Road tire class to allow people to be competitive that didn't want to spend $$$$ on R-comps. IMO, it's because CNY, Glen, and SNY are smaller (~60 people for cny and glen, 30 for SNY) that enough people show up without R comps to not feel like you're getting whupped by money alone and you have a chance at winning at least 2nd with street tires (depending on class).

In FLR, we've had up to 140 person events where every class that allows R comps has several people running them. Without R comps, you're going to lose. Period. Those that can't afford R comps, or want a lower cost season, can run in Road tire, be competitive and still have fun for $1K less/year.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:41 AM   #6
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WNY - no street tire class. You want to win? Spend the money like the rest of us.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:59 AM   #7
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AI (Autocrossers, Inc) doesn't run a street tire class. We do have STX2 for small-two seaters that don't fit STS2 (1.8L Miatas, 2nd gen MR2s, etc).
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:11 PM   #8
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Las Vegas Region - ST* classes only.
No PAX adjustment for running Street Tires in other classes.

Additional adjustments are a crutch.

Why not also have:
high-altitude adjustment: turbo cars are teh cheatzor
wrong camber adjustment: testing takes too much time
whatever tire pressure adjustment: wheels and tires are dirty
can't afford shocks adjustment: they bucks and I'd have to test
On and on and on.

You could add them all together and everyone would get top PAX! A 105-way tie for number one!
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:13 PM   #9
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Our local clubs don't discourage the drivers who show up on street tires. We give them a class to race in where that can compete with others. Granted overall they are not going to be competitive but that is the way it is. They run the same Pax as everyone else.



Milwaukee SCCA ( http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/solo2.html) averaged 132.8 entries per event (not counting the National Tour) with an average of 42.8 driver per event raced in the F or R class.

Example of the class structure:

F (FWD/AWD)=SS,AS,BS,CS,DS,ES,FS,GS,HS,ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP,ES P,FSP,
XP,BP,CP,DP,EP,FP,GP,AM,BM,CM,DM,EM,FM,SM,SM2

R (RWD)=SS,AS,BS,CS,DS,ES,FS,GS,HS,ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP,E SP,FSP,
XP,BP,CP,DP,EP,FP,GP,AM,BM,CM,DM,EM,FM,SM,SM2



WAI (http://www.waiautox.org/) averaged 113.3 entries per event with an average of 39.1 driver per event raced in the F,A or R class.

Example of the class structure:

A (AWD)= SS,AS,BS,CS,DS,ES,FS,GS,HS,ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP,ESP,FSP ,
XP,BP,CP,DP,EP,FP,GP,AM,BM,CM,DM,EM,FM,SM,SM2

F (FWD)=SS,AS,BS,CS,DS,ES,FS,GS,HS,ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP,E SP,FSP,
XP,BP,CP,DP,EP,FP,GP,AM,BM,CM,DM,EM,FM,SM,SM2

R (RWD)=SS,AS,BS,CS,DS,ES,FS,GS,HS,ASP,BSP,CSP,DSP,E SP,FSP,
XP,BP,CP,DP,EP,FP,GP,AM,BM,CM,DM,EM,FM,SM,SM2


We have a large number of repeat driver that start out in one of these classes and run them for a year or so, then take the leap and step up to a overall competitive class.

Last edited by 2superblus; 12-11-2008 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:03 PM   #10
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Chicago has Ladies Street Tire (L) in addition to Street Tire (S), just like Tristate.

Chicago, MKE, TSSCC also don't run novice class.

I look at the street tire classes as being like novice class but with real competition. Looking at results, the street tire classes are usually at least as competitive as some of the race tire classes. Sometimes more so. It's also a good stepping stone into autox, and avoids the noob coming in and getting schooled by 6 seconds by an national trophy winner.

I don't understand the hate though. Anything that makes it easier for people to participate in our sport, and most importanly, come back again, is a good thing.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:10 PM   #11
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Some people see it as pay to play or quit whining.

I see it as tires are the single most expensive part of AX aside from the car purchase (and not always so). I buy coilovers for $1K, I can use them for a year and sell them for $800. I buy tires for $1K use them for (not quite a full year) and then I pay to have them unmounted and trashed. It's a way to allow those who don't want to pay a lot per year or can't afford a lot per year to still be locally "in the game".
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:16 PM   #12
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MotorsportsNE, a division of NASA-X for the tristate area, has no class breakouts for street tire cars.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:19 PM   #13
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I don't believe that any classes called "Stock" or "Street Touring" should be able to run treadless tires whether they are DOT or not, and no matter what the treadwear is. Still, 4/32's of tread on an r-comp would still kill "ST" tires. I know that many people give up on the sport because of not wanting to go to r-comps, but I don't get their logic. They can still come out and have fun.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:19 PM   #14
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Connecticut Autocross and Rally Team (CART): SCCA rules, see KCs post above.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
They can still come out and have fun.
And that's the point I always try to make. If you are there to win, step up and buy what you need. If you don't want to spend the money and you are there to have fun, then why care about where you finish? You are just going to end up doing what we all do anyway, and compare your time to someone that has a similarly set up car.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:46 PM   #16
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San Francisco Region (Bay Area...not the "chapters" in Sacramento and Fresno) : we have 2 indexed classes, T1 and T2. T1 is all stock classes on street tires, T2 is all SP/SM classes (as well as our local "OSP" class...basically anything that has ever had a license plate at some point!). There are corresponding Ladies classes as well (i.e. T1L, T2L).

Within each of those, it operates like a PAX class, so T1-HS car gets multiplied by the HS PAX (unadjusted) to be compared to a T1-AS car that gets multiplied by the AS PAX (unadjusted). Obviously, given that there would be some advantage to being in something like an AWD HS car (i.e. an Impreza L like the one James Wilson used to have but on ST tires would wipe up T1 if so inclined ).

ST/STS/STX/STU cars aren't eligible for T2 unless they run under the appropriate SP class (i.e. an STX 02 WRX is eligible to run T2-ESP IF it has no "SP illegal although ST legal" mods, but has to use the ESP PAX for comparison to the rest of T2 not the STX PAX).

It isn't perfect, but it seems to keep the locals who desire a "stock or SP on street tires" type class happy as both T1 and T2 are pretty well subscribed.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:02 PM   #17
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Central Kentucky (home region) - we use a ST Pax class. You add 'T' to the end of which class you would regularly be in. It usually makes up for 10-15% of total entrants, depending on which venue and what time of the season. When it's towards the end of the season, for example, a lot of the regulars who have already wrapped up their class for the year will leave their race tires at home and race on summer street tires. I'm not a big fan of it, as I feel it takes away from making the "real" classes bigger. But I run STS (now ST) anyways so I don't mind too much.

Cincinnati, Dayton - no tire index class

Louisville - They have "STO", Street Tire Open. As long as it's legal for any other class and running on tires with TW 140 or more, it can run STO. That includes anything from an HS to EP car. I especially don't care for this method, but it does make it easier for noobs to show up and immediately know where to be classed. There is no PAX multiplier though. The fastest raw time in STO wins.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
I don't believe that any classes called "Stock" or "Street Touring" should be able to run treadless tires whether they are DOT or not, and no matter what the treadwear is. Still, 4/32's of tread on an r-comp would still kill "ST" tires. I know that many people give up on the sport because of not wanting to go to r-comps, but I don't get their logic. They can still come out and have fun.
Totally agree to bad the powers that be don't.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureshot007 View Post
And that's the point I always try to make. If you are there to win, step up and buy what you need. If you don't want to spend the money and you are there to have fun, then why care about where you finish? You are just going to end up doing what we all do anyway, and compare your time to someone that has a similarly set up car.
Exactly! No matter what class, we are all just trying to drive the fastest we can on our own setups.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
Exactly! No matter what class, we are all just trying to drive the fastest we can on our own setups.
Then why does it matter what tires are on the car, or the class you go in based on the tires on your car?

You're going to have the same time, course, etc... as everyone else, to work on your setup.

1) Street Touring runs street tires. These are not treadless tires.

2) If they changed the name from 'Stock' to '1st level' or 'A Class', would that change your mind about treadless tires? The term 'Stock' is a preparation level that allows a minimum set of mods. The reason they run "R-Compounds" is that all the cars there can pretty much buy the same kind of tires with the same relative grip (Hoosier or Kumho) without the 'tire wars' of many years ago (before my time, but I heard it was a grand old time. Essentially some company created a cheater street tire that had really sticky compound that was only available to contract drivers... which was leagl and no way to police. Hence, they just changed the rule to "Any D.O.T. tire").

If 'Stock' really was 'stock', you know how many tires one would have to go through to find the set that works? Trust me... chosing between 2 is MUCH easier than choosing between the top 5 hot Street Tires.

They are, however, closer to 'Stock' than NASCAR Stock Cars and they all run on 'D.O.T. tires'.

I'm still waiting for the day when a street tire comes that's essentially a grooved r-compound.

--kC
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Then why does it matter what tires are on the car, or the class you go in based on the tires on your car?

You're going to have the same time, course, etc... as everyone else, to work on your setup.

1) Street Touring runs street tires. These are not treadless tires.

2) If they changed the name from 'Stock' to '1st level' or 'A Class', would that change your mind about treadless tires? The term 'Stock' is a preparation level that allows a minimum set of mods. The reason they run "R-Compounds" is that all the cars there can pretty much buy the same kind of tires with the same relative grip (Hoosier or Kumho) without the 'tire wars' of many years ago (before my time, but I heard it was a grand old time. Essentially some company created a cheater street tire that had really sticky compound that was only available to contract drivers... which was leagl and no way to police. Hence, they just changed the rule to "Any D.O.T. tire").

If 'Stock' really was 'stock', you know how many tires one would have to go through to find the set that works? Trust me... chosing between 2 is MUCH easier than choosing between the top 5 hot Street Tires.

They are, however, closer to 'Stock' than NASCAR Stock Cars and they all run on 'D.O.T. tires'.

I'm still waiting for the day when a street tire comes that's essentially a grooved r-compound.

--kC
It is an oxymoron, but I really have never stressed over it. I know that my unbiased opinion (before I ever raced or even knew a driver) was that un-modified cars should be on tires that are safe for the road. Living in Florida, where it rains alot, I would not recommend driving on treadless tires. Again, whether or not they would wear out in 20 miles would not concern me, assuming that they only drove on them for 19 miles. I understand the reduction in tire choices and that "ST" tires that are getting close to r-comp traction anyways. Like I said, I don't care about treadwear, but the fact that the tires are "DOT" rated, just shows another flaw in that government entity. IMO, anything below Prepared and Modified, should be on "safe for the road", treaded tires. Let them have no treadwear minimums and leave the ST classes as is. Or don't. Who cares?
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:29 PM   #22
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Philly SCCA: No additional special street tire classes. We do have a novice class though where novices can compete against each other in PAX.
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
They can still come out and have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sureshot007 View Post
If you don't want to spend the money and you are there to have fun, then why care about where you finish?
Without starting a war here.... I'll say this.
When I first got my Subaru and got the free SCCA membership, I wanted to try out AutoX. I'm not a supremely competitive person, and I just wanted to have fun. So, I went to an event or two to spectate before I jumped in. The people there who take things WAYYY too seriously kinda ruined my fun. As I was standing around in the paddock, I kept hearing people bitch about how someone "isn't taking this seriously enough" or "why do they even bother showing up" or "They're just wasting time that we could be using to give the serious AutoX'ers more runs". Case in point....

Quote:
Originally Posted by steverife View Post
We ridicule them for not being serious about autocross, then whip them by 2 seconds.
Still, I've considered coming out and trying it next year... on street tires of course But if you want guys to be able to show up on street tires and have fun, you need to do something about the vocal jerks who think those wanting to have fun shouldn't be around.

</FranzFerdinand>
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:41 PM   #24
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Duly noted, Mary.


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Old 12-11-2008, 05:32 PM   #25
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Arizona (Phoenix):
Street Tire 1 (ST1)
Street Tire 1 is a local regional category for any driver using street tires in a car which would normally run in the SS, AS, BS, FS, ASP, BSP, ESP, SM, SM2, XP, BP, CP, DP, EP, FP, GP or any Modified Open classes. Each entrant in this category compete against each other based on their PAX handicapped time. The PAX handicap depends on the Open class that the vehicle would normally compete in.

Street Tire 2 (ST2)
Street Tire 2 is a local regional category for any driver using street tires in a car which would normally run in the CS, DS, ES, GS, HS, CSP, DSP, or FSP Open classes. Each entrant in this category compete against each other based on their PAX handicapped time. The PAX handicap depends on the Open class that the vehicle would normally compete in.

Street Tire Ladies (STL)
Street Tire Ladies is a local regional category for women drivers of any car using street tires. Each entrant in this category compete against each other based on their PAX handicapped time. The PAX handicap depends on the Open class that the vehicle would normally compete in.


Arizona (Tucson and Sierra Vista):
All classes compete together using PAX handicap
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