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Old 12-12-2008, 08:56 AM   #26
smakdown61
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#2.2 Ftw.
lol fixed. 2.2 = 3 now
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:07 AM   #27
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Talking heads are now saying tha the last chance for a bailout lies with the president as he can take money from TARP to give to the Detroit 3. Pressure will be immense to do so and I'm expecting he will.

I think Chrysler should go chapter 7 and GM should go prepack chap.11 with Ford getting similar conessions from the UAW to be competitive with a downsized GM.

It's a shame, really wanted a Camaro Convertible in a few years.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:08 AM   #28
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right about now im seriously thinking of trading in my year old cobalt ss for a 09 rex

I'd HIGHLY recommend that.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:22 AM   #29
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The failure of the bailout is actually the best path. Even if the bailout passed, they would end up in bankruptcy...
There is a need for unions. The reason for which they were started are still there. Just look at China and the way the labor force is treated there. However, they should not be allowed to strong arm the company into bankruptcy. There must be a understanding by labor leaders that they need to exercise some self restraint. At this point I'd rather see the Enron workers get bailed out than the big 3.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:26 AM   #30
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There is a need for unions. The reason for which they were started are still there. Just look at China and the way the labor force is treated there. However, they should not be allowed to strong arm the company into bankruptcy. There must be a understanding by labor leaders that they need to exercise some self restraint. At this point I'd rather see the Enron workers get bailed out than the big 3.
Yes, there is still a reason for unions but not in the way they have developed into today in the auto industry. With all of the regulations set today compared to 50 years ago, the injury and overwork risk has dropped significantly. Not to mention the amount of media coverage that misuse of workers would cause would be devastating to company's image thanks to the internet and TV. I think its silly to compare China's labor force to ours when their government is the reason behind the poor treatment.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:29 AM   #31
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There is a need for unions. The reason for which they were started are still there. Just look at China and the way the labor force is treated there. However, they should not be allowed to strong arm the company into bankruptcy. There must be a understanding by labor leaders that they need to exercise some self restraint. At this point I'd rather see the Enron workers get bailed out than the big 3.
If they go into bankruptcy, these union contracts can be broken and renegotiated - not necessarily that the UAW would go away.

The whole reason this current bailout failed is that the republicans and democrats couldn't agree on when the UAW was willing to make cuts - earlier than the 2011 the UAW was willing to do.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:39 AM   #32
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I would love this to be black and white, however it is not. I have worked with the UAW and the Steelworker unions. I have worked with upper management at GM, Delphi and JC. Stereo-typing anyone of those groups doesn't help this situation and does a disservice to them.

There is a lot of "blame" to go around. It really is amazing that this structure has lasted this long. The whole business model needs to change and they can all do it voluntarily or they can let some lawyers and politician do it. All that will do is cost more money and time.

It will and needs to be painful, they all need to step-up to the plate and take it like a man/woman. Everyone has to give, they have all done it to themselves and they all need to accept responsiblity.

Peace,

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:40 AM   #33
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^^All the UAW had to do was agree to lower pay to the same level as workers in foreign-owned auto plants. Those workers are not paid minimum wage; they are doing pretty well by most standards. But I guess the UAW would rather lose their jobs entirely. What worries me is that the UAW probably think they can wait until Obama and the new Congress take office and then get a bailout package without any worker pay cuts. But by then it may be too late or at least cost a lot more to save GM and/or Chrysler.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:48 AM   #34
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^^All the UAW had to do was agree to lower pay to the same level as workers in foreign-owned auto plants. Those workers are not paid minimum wage; they are doing pretty well by most standards. But I guess the UAW would rather lose their jobs entirely. What worries me is that the UAW probably think they can wait until Obama and the new Congress take office and then get a bailout package without any worker pay cuts. But by then it may be too late or at least cost a lot more to save GM and/or Chrysler.
With the UAW it's an "everything or nothing" mentality.

Pretty scary really.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:51 AM   #35
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Latest update shows that Bush is thinking about dipping into the 700B fund. I really hope he doesn't just throw the money in their laps. If anything, since he's on his way out I would have assumed he would let them die. Its Obama I was really worried about. With his socialism policies and a chance to save the jobs of 3 million potential voters, if Bush doesn't bite on a bailout he most certainly will....if the auto companies can survive that long.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:51 AM   #36
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sometimes in order to actually learn, you need to get a huge slap in the face. The US automakers have been producing crappy and undesirable cars for too long. They need a reality check and if we keep bailing them out, they will never learn. Honestly guys, if somehow they got the money, do you think they would be able to make a turn around and become successful again? Especially in this economy where people are too scared to buy cars?

I think if they had gotten the bailout, 3 months from now they would be in the exact same position.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:02 AM   #37
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I work in the media in a VERY pro-UAW/GM region and even here, people at best are 50/50 for and against the bailout. I have family that works for GM and my parents just bought a GM product (pickup). I am really glad this died in congress. IT IS NOT THE GOV.'s JOB TO BAIL OUT BUSINESSES! My whole state, if any of the big 3 go down, will cave in on itself. Unemployment in Mich. is already at 9.6 percent or something. If parts suppliers and one of the big 3 goes down, that number hits 15% for sure. Besides, even if they'd gotten the money from congress, they'd be laying off a sh$%-ton of people, you know they would.

/i'm already talking to the wife about fleeing the state if GM goes under.
//Big 3 = ugly farking cars (except corvette/camaro/challenger)
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:03 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
^^All the UAW had to do was agree to lower pay to the same level as workers in foreign-owned auto plants. Those workers are not paid minimum wage; they are doing pretty well by most standards. But I guess the UAW would rather lose their jobs entirely. What worries me is that the UAW probably think they can wait until Obama and the new Congress take office and then get a bailout package without any worker pay cuts. But by then it may be too late or at least cost a lot more to save GM and/or Chrysler.
Actually, Toyota workers in America earn $1 more per hour than UAW workers. The problem is not the pay but the legacy costs.

All I can say about this whole thing is that our government does not work.

GM, Ford and (maybe not as much) Chrysler have been downsizing and retooling and renegotiating and doing what's necessary to stay in business for the last few years. Yes they made huge mistakes, but you can't expect them to change overnight when our economy goes into recession, change costs money! The Big 3 has gone in front of congress and appologized and admitted mistakes and it at least trying to make things right.

What has our government done? They have destroyed our economy, they are directly responsible for millions of lost jobs and they have done very little to make things right. You want the worst run company in the US, "the US government", to step in and run the big three and tell them what to do?

Oh wait, did I just hear that AIG needs another 10 billion? What a f.....d up situation.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:10 AM   #39
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IT IS NOT THE GOV.'s JOB TO BAIL OUT BUSINESSES! My whole state, if any of the big 3 go down, will cave in on itself. Unemployment in Mich. is already at 9.6 percent or something. If parts suppliers and one of the big 3 goes down, that number hits 15% for sure. Besides, even if they'd gotten the money from congress, they'd be laying off a sh$%-ton of people, you know they would.
While it is not the government's job to bail out corporations, it is their job to save people from economic problems caused by failing corporations, and thats why anyone is even discussing saving wallstreet and the big3 but not tesla. IMO, this was never about saving companies with great ideas, but to save the working class and possibly America's economy by lending money to those that are too big to fail, if they promise to get their act together.

Now, I am not arguing that GM will not be laying people off if they were to get the money today, because most likely they will have to, but the point is, letting 10% of the company go is better than 100% of the company + suppliers + other companies because of suppliers.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:11 AM   #40
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Newest update:

Treasury spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin says: "Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry."

I agree with TCENGEL. I don't understand how they can claim congress "failed." Its the the ****ing goverment's job to make decisions like that not the treasury department. Whats the point in even having a congress if their decisions don't mean jack ****?
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:14 AM   #41
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While it is not the government's job to bail out corporations, it is their job to save people from economic problems caused by failing corporations, and thats why anyone is even discussing saving wallstreet and the big3 but not tesla. IMO, this was never about saving companies with great ideas, but to save the working class and possibly America's economy by lending money to those that are too big to fail, if they promise to get their act together.

Now, I am not arguing that GM will not be laying people off if they were to get the money today, because most likely they will have to, but the point is, letting 10% of the company go is better than 100% of the company + suppliers + other companies because of suppliers.
You're not "saving" the working class. Your delaying the inevitable by not forcing them to restructure anything. You would take a promise from the auto makers? I sure as hell wouldn't. You think 15 billion is going to save 90% of the jobs? What happens when that 15 billion runs out? It will take $15 just to begin to downsize, that's on top of money they need to stay in operation.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:17 AM   #42
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Whats the point in even having a congress if their decisions don't mean jack ****?
"What's the point of having a general public election if the peoples vote mean jack****?"

-Al Gore
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:22 AM   #43
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Unions still have their place, and no we shouldn't socialize these companies. But there needs to be a change in the way unions work. I used to work with IAM guys who were making 4 - 5x as much a year as I was, and were functionally illiterate. Nothing wrong with that, I'd do the same thing if I wanted to spend 80 hours a week in a machine shop. But they were basically expected not to learn new skills, and not to improve their processing time so they could continue to work enormous amounts of overtime.

Job security, fine, decent wages, fine, retirement security, fine, but getting paid for more than what the work you do is worth, and way more than what your job skills are in any other industries has got to change.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:24 AM   #44
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You're not "saving" the working class. Your delaying the inevitable by not forcing them to restructure anything. You would take a promise from the auto makers? I sure as hell wouldn't. You think 15 billion is going to save 90% of the jobs? What happens when that 15 billion runs out? It will take $15 just to begin to downsize, that's on top of money they need to stay in operation.
what you said is true... but what will it take to get rid of UAW?... IMO, UAW = plaque of our auto industry period. Getting rid of them will be the greatest help the big3 will ever get. Seriously.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:25 AM   #45
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Job security, fine, decent wages, fine, retirement security, fine, but getting paid for more than what the work you do is worth, and way more than what your job skills are in any other industries has got to change.
I actually have the biggest problem with those. I consider unacceptable to be able to retire at age 50 and make nearly 90% of your salary for years after by sitting on your ass drinking a beer in front of the TV. Just b/c people are too stupid to save money for retirement themselves, doesn't mean that a company should make it easy and do it for them while letting them spend wild during their career. A company matched 401K is good enough for everyone else, should be good enough for the union.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:26 AM   #46
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Again... bankruptcy has to happen. Jobs may be lost but the expectation would be for these jobs to become available sooner rather than never. No UAW agreements to commit to and GM will have the final say on who makes what.

GM : "You want your job back, well as a restructure, instead of the UAW's $45/hr, it will be $20/hr and we'll be offering perks to 'keep our employees happy', otherwise we wish you the best in your job hunt."

The suppliers will face a hiccup but can survie on a restructured business level. Too much money has been thrown around without any conscience. Now, that has forced business to change their way of thinking.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:40 AM   #47
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oh don't worry everyone, it'll pass (at least another form of it in Jan)


- and go check out another thread in this forum: an increase in judges salaries (of all things) was worked into this bill.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:44 AM   #48
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All because the UAW refused to accept a reduction in pay that would bring their compensation more in line with what auto workers for foreign companies were making....
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:45 AM   #49
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oh don't worry everyone, it'll pass (at least another form of it in Jan)


- and go check out another thread in this forum: an increase in judges salaries (of all things) was worked into this bill.
I'm not a big fan of ride on garbage like that, but chances are most judges deserve a bit of a bump in pay. They don't make all that much, at least not for the level of education and experience they need to do that job.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:48 AM   #50
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I live and work in Japan. The only effect this will have on me is the dollar will plummet, causing my yen to be worth a lot more when I go home and visit. My family back home are lawyers who specialize in Chapter 7, 11, and 13 bankruptcies. Business has picked up and they prosper. The bad economy isn't negative news for everybody. Speaking of ignorance....
So you are the same Tragedy from Autoblog!
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