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Old 12-12-2008, 10:49 AM   #51
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even when unemployment in general is increasing (highest in what, 30 years?), sales are all down, Big Three are supposedly about to "fail", you still think we should all be forced to devote just a little bit more of our paycheck to these guys' income?
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:57 AM   #52
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I just watched the UAW press conference. That guy isn't endearing anyone to their cause, that's for sure. The heads of the Big 3 at least showed a little humility. Talk about a culture of entitlement...
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by smakdown61 View Post
Its the the ****ing goverment's job to make decisions like that not the treasury department. Whats the point in even having a congress if their decisions don't mean jack ****?
12345 What a lot of people don't realize is that the Treasury is spending a lot more $$ (with very little oversight) than the amount spent under the Congress-approved bailouts.

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Actually, Toyota workers in America earn $1 more per hour than UAW workers. The problem is not the pay but the legacy costs.
hmmm ... well perhaps the issue was total costs. Whatever it is, the UAW is going to have to give something up here.
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JuggernautTCW View Post
While it is not the government's job to bail out corporations, it is their job to save people from economic problems caused by failing corporations
I'm having trouble finding that in the Constitution. Could you help me?
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:39 AM   #55
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If only the US gov. was like Japans and bent over backward to help its industries.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:19 PM   #56
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If only the US gov. was like Japans and bent over backward to help its industries.
If only the US industries had a proven track record over the last 20 years like the Japanese......
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:09 PM   #57
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So you are the same Tragedy from Autoblog!
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:21 PM   #58
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I actually have the biggest problem with those. I consider unacceptable to be able to retire at age 50 and make nearly 90% of your salary for years after by sitting on your ass drinking a beer in front of the TV. Just b/c people are too stupid to save money for retirement themselves, doesn't mean that a company should make it easy and do it for them while letting them spend wild during their career. A company matched 401K is good enough for everyone else, should be good enough for the union.
Oh yeah, I'm not talking pension plan. I don't get a matched 401k here, if I was in a union I'd sure as hell want it.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:27 PM   #59
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Raise your hand if you are one of the people laid off, because I am. Salaried employees got the axe first, I was a dyno technician, and slashed R&D budgets made our contracts go bye bye. That R&D used to build the better more fuel efficient vehicles. You can talk all you want about how its not the governments job to save anybody. But why are they asking for money, because the $700b bailout of Wall Street which was going to unfreeze the credit market failed. They gave that money away and it went nowhere with no accountability. Businesses need capitol to pay bills, the government dropped the ball months ago and now the Big3 and everyone else need capitol from somewhere to stay afloat. And the Big3 are going anywhere they can to get the loans they need to stay in business because bankruptcy for corporations that large isn't a good option like most of you seem to think. Is the UAW a problem? Yes, but how many more people will hurt when their pension disappears? Were the Big3 relying on outdated technology for too long? Yes. Are they trying to fix themselves all ready? GM and Ford sure are and have been for years. Their products are getting better and a few are top of the class but because they weren't for so long all you a$$ hats run around screaming junk. And while you are all happy to not see your tax dollars used to keep businesses besides Wall Street going and more middle class Americans employed. Your tax dollars will be going to pay all the unemployment because, getting a new job now is pretty difficult. And the trickle down effect of all these lost jobs is going to hurt everyone everywhere but if you want a preview of whats to come visit the Metro Detroit area right now. I'm just glad I hadn't bought a house yet and was able to use money I had put away to pay off my STi. Anyone have any more comments to add?
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:35 PM   #60
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I actually have the biggest problem with those. I consider unacceptable to be able to retire at age 50 and make nearly 90% of your salary for years after by sitting on your ass drinking a beer in front of the TV. Just b/c people are too stupid to save money for retirement themselves, doesn't mean that a company should make it easy and do it for them while letting them spend wild during their career. A company matched 401K is good enough for everyone else, should be good enough for the union.
Why are they to STUPID to save for themselves. They got hired into a job that said they would give them a pension. What do you expect them to do, turn it down and say they will save for themselves. Also there are plenty of other jobs that have pensions.
After reading your posts in this thread i have come to the conclusion that you make to much money. I think you should give up 75% of your pay. Im sure i could find someone to do your job for less.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:42 PM   #61
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^ +1
+2345
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:44 PM   #62
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I'm having trouble finding that in the Constitution. Could you help me?
lol!!
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:49 PM   #63
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Raise your hand if you are one of the people laid off, because I am. Salaried employees got the axe first, I was a dyno technician, and slashed R&D budgets made our contracts go bye bye. That R&D used to build the better more fuel efficient vehicles. You can talk all you want about how its not the governments job to save anybody. But why are they asking for money, because the $700b bailout of Wall Street which was going to unfreeze the credit market failed. They gave that money away and it went nowhere with no accountability. Businesses need capitol to pay bills, the government dropped the ball months ago and now the Big3 and everyone else need capitol from somewhere to stay afloat. And the Big3 are going anywhere they can to get the loans they need to stay in business because bankruptcy for corporations that large isn't a good option like most of you seem to think. Is the UAW a problem? Yes, but how many more people will hurt when their pension disappears? Were the Big3 relying on outdated technology for too long? Yes. Are they trying to fix themselves all ready? GM and Ford sure are and have been for years. Their products are getting better and a few are top of the class but because they weren't for so long all you a$$ hats run around screaming junk. And while you are all happy to not see your tax dollars used to keep businesses besides Wall Street going and more middle class Americans employed. Your tax dollars will be going to pay all the unemployment because, getting a new job now is pretty difficult. And the trickle down effect of all these lost jobs is going to hurt everyone everywhere but if you want a preview of whats to come visit the Metro Detroit area right now. I'm just glad I hadn't bought a house yet and was able to use money I had put away to pay off my STi. Anyone have any more comments to add?
Thinking ahead isnt required on nasioc. They all have first hand knowledge of how the UAW works but get all their info(propaganda) from the same place on the internet.
They all know how to do it better. They could all run the big 3 better. They will have a clever comeback for you when their shift at burger king is over and they have had sex with their supermodel GF.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by OC_crook View Post
Thinking ahead isnt required on nasioc. They all have first hand knowledge of how the UAW works but get all their info(propaganda) from the same place on the internet.
They all know how to do it better. They could all run the big 3 better. They will have a clever comeback for you when their shift at burger king is over and they have had sex with their supermodel GF.
Why do you come here ,If you do not like all of us??
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by smakdown61 View Post
Yes, there is still a reason for unions but not in the way they have developed into today in the auto industry. With all of the regulations set today compared to 50 years ago, the injury and overwork risk has dropped significantly. Not to mention the amount of media coverage that misuse of workers would cause would be devastating to company's image thanks to the internet and TV. I think its silly to compare China's labor force to ours when their government is the reason behind the poor treatment.
Wow, so well said... Took the words right out of my mouth. Unions started organizing during a time when there was no OSHA, no set minumum wage, near to no regulations for treatment of workers or maximums on hourly employees, far fewer building codes, etc. - Just A LOT less public regulation of everything. The idea of a a labor union started in the name of safety and fair treatment... It has evolved into a rather crooked racket over the course of the century. Now instead of "fair practices" the unspoken banner of labor unions in manufacturing reads "We want minimum work load and we want more money than what our value-added work on the product is worth."

I've never said that labor unions are bad. However, I think many of them in their modern form are a joke.

A bailout would do absolutely nothing anyway. It would simply delay the inevitable for a few months. GM has a huge amount of potential, but not with the constraints that they currently have. I say this because of I have been a supervisor in a union shop. I'm all for paying people good money for good work and doing my best to preserve jobs for people that do their job... I have not had ONE person work for me that quit on bad terms. But in a Union environment, it can sometimes be impossible to be competitive with non-union shops, even ones that pay their employees well... The notion of impregnable job security often makes union manufacturing workers pretty lazy... Why would anybody work harder for the same amount of money if they're not going to lose the job anyway, right?

Last edited by jhargis; 12-12-2008 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:21 PM   #66
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I'm having trouble finding that in the Constitution. Could you help me?
why does it have to be in the constitution?... does the constitution say gvmt should protect teenagers from getting pregnant? jeez.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Deadkid View Post
Raise your hand if you are one of the people laid off, because I am. Salaried employees got the axe first, I was a dyno technician, and slashed R&D budgets made our contracts go bye bye. That R&D used to build the better more fuel efficient vehicles. You can talk all you want about how its not the governments job to save anybody. But why are they asking for money, because the $700b bailout of Wall Street which was going to unfreeze the credit market failed. They gave that money away and it went nowhere with no accountability. Businesses need capitol to pay bills, the government dropped the ball months ago and now the Big3 and everyone else need capitol from somewhere to stay afloat. And the Big3 are going anywhere they can to get the loans they need to stay in business because bankruptcy for corporations that large isn't a good option like most of you seem to think. Is the UAW a problem? Yes, but how many more people will hurt when their pension disappears? Were the Big3 relying on outdated technology for too long? Yes. Are they trying to fix themselves all ready? GM and Ford sure are and have been for years. Their products are getting better and a few are top of the class but because they weren't for so long all you a$$ hats run around screaming junk. And while you are all happy to not see your tax dollars used to keep businesses besides Wall Street going and more middle class Americans employed. Your tax dollars will be going to pay all the unemployment because, getting a new job now is pretty difficult. And the trickle down effect of all these lost jobs is going to hurt everyone everywhere but if you want a preview of whats to come visit the Metro Detroit area right now. I'm just glad I hadn't bought a house yet and was able to use money I had put away to pay off my STi. Anyone have any more comments to add?
Yes
How are you any different than me when I too lost my job back in 2000 - along with thousands of other people? Why should the tax payers fund the continued business practices that have come to this? The taxpayers didn't fund my industry when it tanked. I'm back at work learned how to find a better role one thats not so expendable and my company has learned to stay lean and mean - we have layoffs even when times are good! Yes people loosing their jobs is bad - but when a market does not support the roles and incomes being paid something has to change and asking the taxpayers to hold things up artificially till some magical moment happens and things are magically fixed isn't the way to do it.

By the way the funds that pay pension funds - are not directly tied to the auto company they might take a hit just like everyone elses 401K's in this country but they shouldn't loose everything unless of course there is a rare case where someone had nothing but GM stock making up their pension (Enron -sound familiar to you?). Which case their financial advisor should be taken out back and shot (they sort of did that with the Enron people). The finance biz in some cases did need to be bailed out given the web was so intertwined with every business and industry that they couldn't let the failure of a bank impact everyone even on a global scale. However taking major steps to fix the broken bank needs to happen also and that has been taking place. But it will take years before they untangle the mess of packaged subprime loans and other investments that were mixed together.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:19 PM   #68
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Yes, I agree that the government did mess up with the 700B bailout. We should be funding the private sector of the economy (as well as consumers) instead of letting the big businesses suck it up and not do a damn thing. The same goes with the automakers. If anything this might help in the future. If GM goes belly up, I can guarantee you foreign companies will be eating up their assets like a fat man in a pie eating contest which will in turn put the jobs back. And put them back in a more stable, smarter, non-unionized company.

BTW look at the worst cars list in consumer reports...the majority are GM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:29 PM   #69
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How about the govt enforce minimum quality/fit and finish guidlines and force the big 3 to adhere to them?

Because lets face it, the reasons the big 3 are in so much trouble are

1. Crap quality
2. Poor public image due to said crap quality
3. Poor fit/finish
4. Outdated designs
5. Inferior workmanship.


Interiors that look like they were designed by fisher price, then assembled by child labor in china just arent cutting it. Many of the cars are at LEAST 10 years out of date from an aesthetics standpoint as well.

Radio preset buttons that the numbers wear off of in the first year of ownership.
Leather on the steering wheels that peels after 2 years
Seats that feel like a lazy-boy recliner in their "sporty" models.
Vettes with Cavalier steering wheels and HVAC control knobs


The list of their problems goes on.

All they need to do is go out and buy a Toyota, a Honda and a Lexus, in each class of their vehicles, pull them into the R&D dept and look at everything they are doing differently.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:29 PM   #70
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I just watched the UAW press conference. That guy isn't endearing anyone to their cause, that's for sure. The heads of the Big 3 at least showed a little humility. Talk about a culture of entitlement...
What pisses me off is that these guys make an average of $69 an hour after all the benefits are thrown in for what is essentially unskilled labor.

My girlfriend is a school teacher who spent tens of thousands of dollars on her education and she makes half as much as these guys, after benefits.

I'm rooting for GM, I want them to be successful. But those UAW union bosses can choke and die.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:32 PM   #71
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I personally am in a good position to move on, young and holding a degree, thousands aren't. The "finance biz" got bailed out so it wouldn't take everyone with it, right? What business plan did they show? They got into that situation because they are unregulated. The government failed at the point when they used scare tactics to pass the bailout without reviewing the companies' viability and having anywhere near what they asked of the auto companies. Untangling the mess will take years and the bailout isn't guaranteeing any improvements are being made on Wall Street.
Its a LOAN for the auto companies because credit markets didn't magically open up like proponents of the financial BAILOUT claimed. Big companies use big money to stay in business when times are tough. And they are restructuring because they aren't flexible enough. But that doesn't happen overnight either. The UAW ensures that, they are a hindrance to progress being made and they will have to give up what they have.
And sadly GM stock was an option as part of their benefits and a lot of GM employees have huge portions of their retirement in GM stock. GM didn't put a stop on that till this year, so those people are really scared right now. And yes the idiots that allowed that should be taken out back and shot.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:34 PM   #72
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I personally am in a good position to move on, young and holding a degree, thousands aren't. The "finance biz" got bailed out so it wouldn't take everyone with it, right? What business plan did they show? They got into that situation because they are unregulated. The government failed at the point when they used scare tactics to pass the bailout without reviewing the companies' viability and having anywhere near what they asked of the auto companies. Untangling the mess will take years and the bailout isn't guaranteeing any improvements are being made on Wall Street.
Its a LOAN for the auto companies because credit markets didn't magically open up like proponents of the financial BAILOUT claimed. Big companies use big money to stay in business when times are tough. And they are restructuring because they aren't flexible enough. But that doesn't happen overnight either. The UAW ensures that, they are a hindrance to progress being made and they will have to give up what they have.
And sadly GM stock was an option as part of their benefits and a lot of GM employees have huge portions of their retirement in GM stock. GM didn't put a stop on that till this year, so those people are really scared right now. And yes the idiots that allowed that should be taken out back and shot.
You're absolutely right.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:38 PM   #73
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Simple market forces at work here guys.

Big3 issues

1. pay to much to make product (unions is only part of it) to be competitive.
2. Need to sell more cars at a higher price than competition.

This business model works during economic expansion, bubbles, good times. Painfully obvious that the busniess model fails during tough times.

If your business has no margin of error for tough economic times than it is a failed business model. A fool can make money in a bubble.

The reason I am against the bailouts is not because the business model failed. Businesses fail all the time. The reason is that the industry has known this for at least 20 years and nothing was done. They took all the money when the years were good and are now crying when it is bad. Completely irresponsible, they deserve to be out of business because the market deems it so - only an entity like a government can interfere with these kinds of market forces at a huge cost to taxpayers.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:39 PM   #74
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Why do you come here ,If you do not like all of us??
It's impossible to like most of the ppl in here. To many hypocrites. When you weed threw the +1,lol and they should DIAF for making more money then me posts you can find some intelligent life.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:57 PM   #75
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It's impossible to like most of the ppl in here. To many hypocrites. When you weed threw the +1,lol and they should DIAF for making more money then me posts you can find some intelligent life.
I have no problems with high wages. If somebody contributes $70 worth of value-added work to a product in an hour. Pay them $70/hr. I think the problem in this case is that they are getting paid a high wage for often not doing that much work. Then these same people come crying to american taxpayers, some of which work harder for less money, to prop them up because they're not willing to budge in hard times... Well, that is bound to rile some people up.

I don't know why the bank bailout didn't get as much bad press. Maybe because there is such a high percentage of our population in houses that they can't afford and with rediculous levels of credit debt... Hard to be mad at banks if they themselves signed on the dotted line, eh?
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