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Old 12-12-2008, 03:58 PM   #76
Mike Wevrick
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Originally Posted by JuggernautTCW View Post
why does it have to be in the constitution?... does the constitution say gvmt should protect teenagers from getting pregnant? jeez.
It doesn't, and they shouldn't. Do they not teach Civics in schools at all these days?
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:00 PM   #77
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It's impossible to like most of the ppl in here. To many hypocrites. When you weed threw the +1,lol and they should DIAF for making more money then me posts you can find some intelligent life.
Don't forget the "when they get off their shift at McDonalds" posts. Hypocrite bulls shouldn't throw glass in pottery shops.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:07 PM   #78
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My $.02: I think it's a shame that LOTS of people will be in danger of losing their jobs BUT..... that is on the heads of the people at the tops of these companies and the freakin' unions, NOT on those of us who are appauled by the idea of a bailout. Unions had their place and time but that time has come and gone.

It blows my mind that a major corporation could have the nuts to come to the gov't essentially asking "mommy and daddy" to BAIL THEM OUT of THEIR mess! That just seriously does not compute. Can't even wrap my mind around it that we'd ever even entertain such a thought. While I think it's great that major motor companies have, in the past, done very well by paying decent wages and offering unparalleled benefits, there is no reason an unskilled person deserves to make $25/hr to put a screw in the same place on a vehicle in "x" amount of time for 8 hours a day with 2 breaks and a lunch. It just doesn't make sense. That, and the upper-ups padding their pockets is what got them in the position (among other things obviously). It has nothing to do with "Aw, that's not fair! I don't make that much and I graduated college, yadda, yadda, yadda....." It has to do with the fact that THAT kind of work IS NOT worth THAT kind of money. It's just not. I'm not saying pay them peanuts, I'm saying they WILL do it for FAR less but still MUCH more than minimum wage and should be happy. If they had adopted this model years ago (b/c this problem did not develop over night but over time - years) then they might not be in the position they're in.

I work for a pretty good size company. What if we start to go under? Can we come and ask the gov't to save our ass b/c we made poor financial decisions and lost our customer base to competitors b/c we, ourselves, have not put forth the effort to STAY COMPETITIVE?

I could go on but won't.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:13 PM   #79
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What's 14 billion, really?

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Old 12-12-2008, 04:23 PM   #80
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As a 57 year old Engineer who grew up in Dearborn, MI here is my long term view of how we got here. After getting my M.E. degree from Michigan in 1976, I left the Detroit area as it seemed the US Auto industry was D.O.A. The restructuring is long overdue and the country just does not have the guts to fix this massive problem.

1. At the end of WW II the industrial capability of Japan, Germany & England were effectively destroyed. In the US there were many factories upgraded for the war effort and of course nothing had been bombed here. The american auto makers had a monopoly on worldwide auto production and the UAW quickly obtained a monolpoly of the american auto industry. The UAW enjoyed by the 1960's the biggest most powerful monopoly the world has ever seen (except for maybe the American Medical Association). The auto makers attempted to resist but without foreign competition it was hopeless they caved in and passed the costs through to the buyers. All was well and Detroit was happy for the time being.

2. During the 1960's the founders of the american auto industry who were technical and engineering people were no longer considered effective managers (not enough focus on the stock price and bottom line profits). The boards of the auto makers replaced these folks with the Harvard MBA types (who probably flunked out of Calculus I?). At the same times the engineers and technical staff became second class employees directed to copy last years design or find a way to make it cheaper. The next generation of engineers (myself included) wanted no part and departed.

3. By the 1970's the Japanese and Germans had recovered from the war and began to offer serious competition to Detroit. By the 1980's they pulled ahead of Detroit. While living in Seattle during this time an American car became a rare site.

4. During the 80's Ford introduced the Taurus and saved Ford. Chrysler had the mini van. Things looked good for a while.

5. During the 1990's Fed Chief Alan Greenspan created the stock and real estate bubbles by flooding the banks with cheap money. Crazy loan practices allowed just about anybody to find a way to buy that big overstuffed SUV (including the Japanese & German makes). As all bubbles pop as this one has in 2007 sales collapse for everyone. The cash rich companies will survive.

Hopefully GM and others don't become the British Leyland nationalized companies as happened in the UK. Have you seen the Top Gear episode on the British Leyland cars of the 70's?

I believe that a downsized US owned specialty auto industry is the best we can hope for in the future. Maybe that way innovation and engineering can replace politics and bureacracy we have now.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:55 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwyelton View Post
After getting my M.E. degree from Michigan in 1976...
Go Blue! Interesting perspective. I still remember talking to my friends dad who was a senior engineer at Chrysler and him "explaining" to me why it was the publics fault that the Big 3 were in trouble because they bought Japanese cars. It's like they all lived their own world.
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:11 PM   #82
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snip
Very well put.
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:19 PM   #83
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As a 57 year old Engineer...

:bowdown:
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:55 PM   #84
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Don't forget the "when they get off their shift at McDonalds" posts. Hypocrite bulls shouldn't throw glass in pottery shops.
It was burger king not mcdonalds. Also how am i a hypocrite i dont work at either BK or McD.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:32 PM   #85
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I just ran the numbers for profit per employee for the publicly traded auto companies in the US. Note Subaru, BMW, Chrysler and some others are not listed stocks in US so not included below.

Toyota $37K
Nissan $33K
Honda $26K
VW $20K
Daimler $17K
Ford $ - 45K
GM $ - 87K

You can run the numbers to see how long the bail out money will last at these rates!
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:41 PM   #86
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I don't know why the bank bailout didn't get as much bad press.
Maybe not bad press but voters were heavily against it.
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:05 PM   #87
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Anybody else think of these three when thinking of the Big3?

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Old 12-13-2008, 01:00 AM   #88
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^^ The Three Stooges are what I had in mind, but I guess those three will do just as well.
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:09 AM   #89
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You guys in this rumors forum are incredibly ignorant.

Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?

Ford and GM have some good products on the horizon. I can't say the same from Chrysler.
you must be some sort of genius
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:45 AM   #90
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You guys in this rumors forum are incredibly ignorant.

Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?

Ford and GM have some good products on the horizon. I can't say the same from Chrysler.
Let's do a little math, shall we?

There are currently 305,879,489 people living in this country (according the US census bureau) Now obviously not all of them are of working age, and some are likely retired. Let's say just for ****s and giggles that only %10 of those people are currently working. That leaves us with 30,587,948 people working. Now, one million of those lose their jobs that would increase unemployment by %3. We are currently ~ %6 unemployment (depending on source) which would bring us to ~%9

For reference back in the early 80's unemployment was at ~ %10 and with the exception of hair bands and fashion I would say we made it through the 80's pretty well.
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:18 AM   #91
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I live and work in Japan. The only effect this will have on me is the dollar will plummet, causing my yen to be worth a lot more when I go home and visit. My family back home are lawyers who specialize in Chapter 7, 11, and 13 bankruptcies. Business has picked up and they prosper. The bad economy isn't negative news for everybody. Speaking of ignorance....
A good line of thought. Though, 1M job losses will definitely be significant. We will bounce back, regardless of what happens, however union auto employees will likely have a very hard time finding new positions. Most are line workers, and if many auto line jobs are simply defunct, and much other domestic manufacturing has been outsourced, what's left for them?

I say this as a person who was primarily opposed to the bailout. It's a tough situation, whether it had been denied or approved.
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:56 PM   #92
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even if the auto industry gets bailed out many of these purported jobs will be lost, whether it's 1 million, 3 million or whatever bs figure you believe that's being bandied about by industry trade groups. yes, i said the bailout won't stem job losses: suppliers and manufacturers alike will downsize drastically whether or not the govt gives the big 2.8 a bridge loan.

why? under 10 million/yr annualized sales rate the last few months is not enough to support everyone. bailouts don't change this at all, and the business should rightfully go to the companies that have figured out how to stay solvent despite changing market conditions and consumer preferences, that is, the japanese companies.
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