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Old 12-16-2008, 11:41 AM   #1
Cbgrandtheftauto
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Default Ej20k to Ej??? Hybrid

I have a ej20k nothing is wrong with it but if I wanted to do some runs at the track I don't want it to throw a bearing so I thought about getting a 20g block so I could put a bunch of boost to it also...but my only delima is will everything bolt up....heads, intake, ect.????.....then I also thought about using 22t block because I read about it in another thread...but I wanna keep my 280hp and I don't want to have to do a bunch of mods to make it work...any other suggestions or combos??? Also I need 5 speed transmission ideas to hold the power...any suggestions on that to???

My mods are apexi PFC for ej20k and vf39(but after the swap I want to go to vf22)...it will be a daily driver and couple times to the track that I won't dog past 6000rpms at the track and 4000rpms at daily driving

Thanks
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Old 12-17-2008, 01:31 AM   #2
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Save your money for tires, brakes, and track entry costs. Why fix it if its not broken?
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Old 12-17-2008, 02:17 PM   #3
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Because it's gonna break...and I want to be ready to have the other block ready when it does
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:18 PM   #4
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20k STi??

I just rebuilt my 20k STi. Tore it down, had .010 taken off the rods, put ACL race bearings in it and now I run this piss out of it. I say just rebuild it so you know what your starting with. Bearings were cheap too. I got them through my machinist and I spent around $100 on them.

I am running the 6s ecu, 8k redline, 19-20 psi tapering to around 16-17. Runs like hell. With cbe and k&n drop in Im running 13.1's.

Keep your 20k alive!!!
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:31 PM   #5
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I had a 22T blow the bottom out without much warning and I never even got to see what it had(well not really) but I was driving like miss daisy and she lost power and bout 2k's later CLANK CLANK SCRAPE SCRAPE!!!! there was at least 1 or more toatal bearings in the oil pan!!!! and I got a closed deck 20G now and at light load in neutral there is some of what I was hearing before the 22T blew! but not as loud, the pan was clean but I'm still nervous bout it cause there is still some of the same noises, but this engine seems quite a bit more solid!!! she hasent seen much boost cause I dont have an Intercooler yet and the home made intake is leaking boost!! so we'll see how this goe's

I would stay with what you got and rebuild the 20K cause they make solid reliable open deck blocks that are like over the 400 mark!!! the closed deck block is only good for crazy built stuff that has fully forged everything and sleved and built heads and like 30+ pounds of boost!!

lates Jesse
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:31 PM   #6
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Go ahead and build the ej20g shortblock and set aside. EVERYTHING will bolt up to a shortblock. Then when and if your stock blows you are ready to swap over.
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Go ahead and build the ej20g shortblock and set aside. EVERYTHING will bolt up to a shortblock. Then when and if your stock blows you are ready to swap over.
thats what i was wanting to do with either a 20g or 22t...but will their be any power loss with the the 20G block ???
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:35 AM   #8
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I heard that 20k's were prone to breaking due to detonation and running them to hard...I really dont know what to do...I guess if I got mine tuned to 93 oct I really wouldnt have to worry about the engine blowing...then if I didnt rev it to 8000rpm i would be ok on that end...but I'm still open on ideas...I got a RA transmission from a 20G because my rs transmission cant handle that power and I wanna bolt it to a short block or if I keep the 20k Im going to rebuild the K while I have it out of the car...just to many combos!!!
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:31 AM   #9
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1. An RA transmissions from an Ej20G is in no way stronger than a 2.5RS tranny. It's just geared differently.

2. Ej20K's are not weak or failure prone. They are as reliable as the owner. Over the years I have definitely seen more Ej20G failures than Ej20K failures, which makes sense since they are older. I don't know who started the rumours that got the Ej20k blocks a bad rap but it's just not true.

Build whatever you want. If you want 2.2l of displacement build an Ej22. If you are happy with 2.0l then build an Ej20. Doesn't matter which one really. The weakest thing on all these engines is the rods, but unless you are going bigger than that vf39 you don't need to worry about the rods. They are plenty strong for the power that turbo makes...
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
1. An RA transmissions from an Ej20G is in no way stronger than a 2.5RS tranny. It's just geared differently.

2. Ej20K's are not weak or failure prone. They are as reliable as the owner. Over the years I have definitely seen more Ej20G failures than Ej20K failures, which makes sense since they are older. I don't know who started the rumours that got the Ej20k blocks a bad rap but it's just not true.

Build whatever you want. If you want 2.2l of displacement build an Ej22. If you are happy with 2.0l then build an Ej20. Doesn't matter which one really. The weakest thing on all these engines is the rods, but unless you are going bigger than that vf39 you don't need to worry about the rods. They are plenty strong for the power that turbo makes...
But the 2.5rs had 165hp but the 20g had 240hp so wouldn't the 20g transmission be stronger??
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Cbgrandtheftauto View Post
But the 2.5rs had 165hp but the 20g had 240hp so wouldn't the 20g transmission be stronger??
The 2.5RS was a test to see if the US market was ready for the WRX. For all intents and purposes it was a WRX with an NA Forester engine installed in it. They made a different ratio mainshaft for it so that it would have a short 1st and 2nd that would inflate the 0-60 times when they did magazine tests. Otherwise the transmission is internally identical to all of the other GC chassis WRX and STi transmissions. And keep in mind that Subaru has had 1.6l and 1.8l option Imprezas and 2.2l and 2.0 engines in the Legacies before that.

The only real difference between any 1989-2002 Subaru transmissions is final drive ratios and gear ratios. Of course things like DCCD and higher rated center differentials (which were only found on a very select few cars like STi-RA's, and not in regular production line STi's). The synchros, the bearings, the operating sleeves and most importantly the gear dimensions are all the same. Do you really think Subaru would downgrade something when they've already got the production line rolling? That's not cost effective. Why redesign the gearbox for a limited production US model that may have a limited lifespan? They wouldn't and didn't.

In recent years, Subaru did make the RA gears wider and then went to the whole production line wit that new dimension, as well as moving to triple cone synchros and other subtle upgrades. But that's all post 2002 and not something you ever saw in the GC chassis cars.

My business is Porsche and Subaru transmissions and gears. I've had dozens of these apart on the bench. People assume that V1 or V2 RA gears are just as wide as the late RA gears, and they were not. They were just the same as their contemporary WRX gears. Last summer I opened up a B3DA from an '94 RA right next to a B3CA from a 220hp '94 GF(which is also used in v1 STi's btw) and there was no difference between the two other than ratios. The V1 RA also did not have a special center differential. They were not standard on either the STI or the RA cars in the early days. That was an optional upgrade on those cars.
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:56 PM   #12
94 GT
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thats kool so you have a tranny shop???? are these trannys hard to do?/ I knida like my slushbox!!! these engines actually have torqe!! so it ain't so bad?!?! MY corolla gts is stick cause it has to be (or it would be slow as hell) Iwas thinken about gettin a manual tranny when I can find one cheap,, and build it!!! so she can handle better!! can I use the diffs out of the auto????? they are 3.90's so thats a respectable ## is there any way to get the auto to shift higher?? cause the 20g's rev band is defanitly higher than the 22t's!!

thanx Jesse
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Old 12-21-2008, 01:26 AM   #13
Cbgrandtheftauto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
The 2.5RS was a test to see if the US market was ready for the WRX. For all intents and purposes it was a WRX with an NA Forester engine installed in it. They made a different ratio mainshaft for it so that it would have a short 1st and 2nd that would inflate the 0-60 times when they did magazine tests. Otherwise the transmission is internally identical to all of the other GC chassis WRX and STi transmissions. And keep in mind that Subaru has had 1.6l and 1.8l option Imprezas and 2.2l and 2.0 engines in the Legacies before that.

The only real difference between any 1989-2002 Subaru transmissions is final drive ratios and gear ratios. Of course things like DCCD and higher rated center differentials (which were only found on a very select few cars like STi-RA's, and not in regular production line STi's). The synchros, the bearings, the operating sleeves and most importantly the gear dimensions are all the same. Do you really think Subaru would downgrade something when they've already got the production line rolling? That's not cost effective. Why redesign the gearbox for a limited production US model that may have a limited lifespan? They wouldn't and didn't.

In recent years, Subaru did make the RA gears wider and then went to the whole production line wit that new dimension, as well as moving to triple cone synchros and other subtle upgrades. But that's all post 2002 and not something you ever saw in the GC chassis cars.

My business is Porsche and Subaru transmissions and gears. I've had dozens of these apart on the bench. People assume that V1 or V2 RA gears are just as wide as the late RA gears, and they were not. They were just the same as their contemporary WRX gears. Last summer I opened up a B3DA from an '94 RA right next to a B3CA from a 220hp '94 GF(which is also used in v1 STi's btw) and there was no difference between the two other than ratios. The V1 RA also did not have a special center differential. They were not standard on either the STI or the RA cars in the early days. That was an optional upgrade on those cars.
I was told by area 1320 in easton PA (one of subaru's top engine swap shops)after i bought it that I should take it easy on that transmission because it couldnt handle the power...but ur saying that all the 5sp are the same....in which you sound like you know what ur talkin about so I'll listen to you...but i can pound on my rs transmission like it was a STi 5sp right??

and Ive made up my mind and I'm keeping my 20K I'm just going to buy forged pistons and steel crank and rods...and when it goes im redoing the whole thing...I wasnt sure what the prevous owner did to it when they put it in
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:43 AM   #14
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Grandtheft,
Part of the problem is you have reputible shops telling people misinformation with little or no direct knowledge of what's going on inside of the gearboxes. 4 years ago with SCC interviewed Bill Knose at I-Speed and did their swap article, I saw the best answer I've seen in print about these trannies. They indicated that they didn't know because they don't build trannies, but that the stock "L" tranny in Bills personal car had seen 2 years of daily service against his 260hp swap. At the same time they have customers who go through trannies every 6 months. It's all about the owner and how they care for the car and how they treat it. That's the kind of answers shops should be giving customers. But others embrace the internet chatter and continue the game of telephone that in some instances was started by very reputible people that are trusted for their expertise.

Subaru 5spds don't like redline drag launches. They don't like flat footed rev limiter bumping 1-2 shifts. Those two things break Subaru trannies more than anything else. Hard road racing downshifts are the other thing that breaks them (most trannies in fact ). I broke my first RS tranny in 1st gear with auto-x downshifts. That was with 200chp on an NA engine. I broke teeth right off the dog rings. So, if you show a little mechanical empathy you have little to worry about. But any of us can screw up or get blinded by the red mist. When that happens, all bets are off...

BTW,
You will never need to replace your crank unless you burn it up. It's forged from the factory and really a high quality piece. Some nice Pauter rods are a worthy upgrade, but the crank is just fine as it sits. That's another part that is the same across the line from Ej18 to STi. If you search in the Built Motor forum using my name and the words "Ej18" "crank" and "same" you'll find a thread full of part numbers and supercessions as the cranks progressed through the years. Both the cranks and the rods are the same and if you ever ruin your crank you can just go to the junkyard, find a core Ej18, and pull out the crank and throw it in your Ej20K case...
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Old 12-21-2008, 02:29 PM   #15
Cbgrandtheftauto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Grandtheft,
Part of the problem is you have reputible shops telling people misinformation with little or no direct knowledge of what's going on inside of the gearboxes. 4 years ago with SCC interviewed Bill Knose at I-Speed and did their swap article, I saw the best answer I've seen in print about these trannies. They indicated that they didn't know because they don't build trannies, but that the stock "L" tranny in Bills personal car had seen 2 years of daily service against his 260hp swap. At the same time they have customers who go through trannies every 6 months. It's all about the owner and how they care for the car and how they treat it. That's the kind of answers shops should be giving customers. But others embrace the internet chatter and continue the game of telephone that in some instances was started by very reputible people that are trusted for their expertise.

Subaru 5spds don't like redline drag launches. They don't like flat footed rev limiter bumping 1-2 shifts. Those two things break Subaru trannies more than anything else. Hard road racing downshifts are the other thing that breaks them (most trannies in fact ). I broke my first RS tranny in 1st gear with auto-x downshifts. That was with 200chp on an NA engine. I broke teeth right off the dog rings. So, if you show a little mechanical empathy you have little to worry about. But any of us can screw up or get blinded by the red mist. When that happens, all bets are off...

BTW,
You will never need to replace your crank unless you burn it up. It's forged from the factory and really a high quality piece. Some nice Pauter rods are a worthy upgrade, but the crank is just fine as it sits. That's another part that is the same across the line from Ej18 to STi. If you search in the Built Motor forum using my name and the words "Ej18" "crank" and "same" you'll find a thread full of part numbers and supercessions as the cranks progressed through the years. Both the cranks and the rods are the same and if you ever ruin your crank you can just go to the junkyard, find a core Ej18, and pull out the crank and throw it in your Ej20K case...

I havent tore my engine completely apart to get to the crank...but thanks for that info...if i launch my car its usually at 4-4500rpms and I dont flat foot shift either...I did when I was a noob at driving a stick...lol but launching a that rpm would be ok right???
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:11 PM   #16
94 GT
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the auto at least has that fluid between them so it's not to hard on the engine and the drivetrain but 5spd defanatly better handling!! although the autos downshift better then they up shift if you use it like stick (eg rev matching) I'm impressed with that!!! and thats a crappy old auto in a legacy GT but I hear that the auto in the turbos were shotpeaned for strengh but the valve control is the same???? is there any way to get these to shift higher????
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:48 PM   #17
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94GT,
There's auto tranny guys and there's manual tranny guys(well mostly, though a rare few service both kinds of boxes). But the point is they are apples and oranges. I've never cracked an EAT and don't ever plan on it. Manuals are pretty straightforward. Autos? Not so much. Those take a mad scientist to make them your specialty.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Grandtheft,
Part of the problem is you have reputible shops telling people misinformation with little or no direct knowledge of what's going on inside of the gearboxes......
Subaru 5spds don't like redline drag launches. They don't like flat footed rev limiter bumping 1-2 shifts. Those two things break Subaru trannies more than anything else. Hard road racing downshifts are the other thing that breaks them
Matt- I sold Chad that car. Its is still running a stock transmission with an ACT clutch.
Being he was a new Subaru owner I told him to specifically be gentle with the transmission I don't think that is giving missinformation at all...

Im sure I have PLENTY of knowledge with those transmissions I have broken my fair share haha..


-Ryan
Area1320
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:47 PM   #19
Matt Monson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
Matt- I sold Chad that car. Its is still running a stock transmission with an ACT clutch.
Being he was a new Subaru owner I told him to specifically be gentle with the transmission I don't think that is giving missinformation at all...

Im sure I have PLENTY of knowledge with those transmissions I have broken my fair share haha..


-Ryan
Area1320
Ryan,
While he specifically mentioned your name in his post, I deliberately did not. I was not party to his conversation with you and could not say whether or not he accurately represented what he was told by you. I was not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, and especially not at you. If I wanted to call someone out and call them names, I would just do it. I say what I mean and when I mean no offense, I say nothing offensive.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:44 PM   #20
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No offense taken buddy Assuming just did what it means haha



-Ryan
Area1320
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:39 PM   #21
Cbgrandtheftauto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
I say what I mean and when I mean no offense, I say nothing offensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
No offense taken buddy Assuming just did what it means haha



-Ryan
Area1320
what????....are you two speaking english???...lol
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:20 PM   #22
Matt Monson
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Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
No offense taken buddy Assuming just did what it means haha



-Ryan
Area1320
Good. I re-read my post and I could have been a little more clear with what I was getting at. It was meant as always "check your source" sort of statement in a general sense and nothing in particular about you or your business. It would be pretty rude of me to start making assumptions about your knowledge level and publicly bashing you. For example, you could have made a statement about the new wider RA gears versus 2.5RS gears and the customer misunderstood to think you meant ALL RA gears were stronger.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:17 PM   #23
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I still am hanging on the transmission thing...so keep the rs or get something stronger???...I don't want a 6sp either.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:24 AM   #24
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Put some money away as you can and drive the RS tranny until you break it.
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:02 PM   #25
Cbgrandtheftauto
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Put some money away as you can and drive the RS tranny until you break it.
ok..anything special to look for when i need another one??
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