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Old 12-18-2008, 01:17 PM   #1
briansubbiefan
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Default 2010 is here and still no Diesel in the US

sorry if this is a repost but seems like big news!

http://www.forums.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19601.aspx
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:21 PM   #2
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how bout some c/n's or at least a description?
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #3
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When Subaru announced their new diesel boxer four-cylinder engine, American Subie fans were disappointed to learn that the company wasn't planning to offer the engine here. Fortunately it looks like rising fuel prices and increasing fuel economy standards are causing Subaru management to have a change of heart. Just as General Motors is now looking at bringing their new 2.9L diesel V-6 stateside, Subaru is now looking to add the diesel to just-released second-gen Forester and Impreza models. At the Detroit Auto Show, Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru's parent company) president Ikuo Mori said the diesels should arrive here by mid-2010.
quote from the link.
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:46 PM   #4
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quote from the link.
He was misquoted - he said mid-2010s. Seriously.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:15 PM   #5
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I'm hoping that this current blip of cheap gas doesn't derail all the diesels planned for the US. I've read that Honda has decided not to go forward with their plans of bringing diesels to the states.
My office is moving and I'm looking at a commute of ~50 miles each way on a route that isn't serviced by trains. I've been driving my craptastic Camry into the ground waiting for the oil burners to become available. It would be a shame if the old Toyota took a dump soon and I had to buy a VW! Then again, I'm still not sure I could talk myself into a VW.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:20 PM   #6
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Default My guess

Here is what I think. Auto market is tanking in the US - consumers are not spending money.
Add to that - that US auto consumers distain diesel - and for the most part have zero understanding of what diesel engines are about. The savy shoppers who know diesels make up a very small percentage of the entire auto market in the US.

99% of all auto shoppers in the US look at the pump price listed infront of the gas station - look at the added cost of the diesel vs similar gas car - see the lower hp rating and they go buy a gas car.

Diesel pricing - and pump costs are way - way to complex for the average US consumer to do 6th grade math to see the advantage of diesel - there for Subaru will not be bringing diesel to the US anytime soon. Which means that I'm very close to deciding on a MB diesel and researching 08 prices. Assuming the MB gives us resonably trouble free ownership and no doubt raises our expectations on seat comfort/interior I doubt we will own another subaru. Then again the MB adventure could be a complete and total disaster which case I hope by then I have other diesel options.

Adding larger 300hp 4dr models to their line up does little to nothing to address the fuel milege issue Subaru faces.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:29 PM   #7
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^^^
I'm afraid you're spot on in your analysis. If I was sitting in the board room making the decision, I would not take the gamble of launching a diesel in the States.
Maybe a nice S2000 would make a good commuter for me?
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
I'm hoping that this current blip of cheap gas doesn't derail all the diesels planned for the US. I've read that Honda has decided not to go forward with their plans of bringing diesels to the states.
My office is moving and I'm looking at a commute of ~50 miles each way on a route that isn't serviced by trains. I've been driving my craptastic Camry into the ground waiting for the oil burners to become available. It would be a shame if the old Toyota took a dump soon and I had to buy a VW! Then again, I'm still not sure I could talk myself into a VW.
It's very sad to see that the people producing the cars are as shortsighted and stupid as the people buying them. I expected more out of Honda.
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:20 PM   #9
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Not to put too fine a point on it...companies exist to make money. They already have diesels, why go through the expense to sell them here if they aren't going to make money on their investment? It sucks, but it's true.
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:25 PM   #10
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It's very sad to see that the people producing the cars are as shortsighted and stupid as the people buying them. I expected more out of Honda.
producers can only be as farsighted as consumers as they need to make profits. no profits = death...
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:38 PM   #11
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Here is what I think. Auto market is tanking in the US - consumers are not spending money.
Add to that - that US auto consumers distain diesel - and for the most part have zero understanding of what diesel engines are about. The savy shoppers who know diesels make up a very small percentage of the entire auto market in the US.

99% of all auto shoppers in the US look at the pump price listed infront of the gas station - look at the added cost of the diesel vs similar gas car - see the lower hp rating and they go buy a gas car.

Diesel pricing - and pump costs are way - way to complex for the average US consumer to do 6th grade math to see the advantage of diesel - there for Subaru will not be bringing diesel to the US anytime soon. Which means that I'm very close to deciding on a MB diesel and researching 08 prices. Assuming the MB gives us resonably trouble free ownership and no doubt raises our expectations on seat comfort/interior I doubt we will own another subaru. Then again the MB adventure could be a complete and total disaster which case I hope by then I have other diesel options.

Adding larger 300hp 4dr models to their line up does little to nothing to address the fuel milege issue Subaru faces.

But if Subaru see's VW selling alot of 4motionGolf Diesels they will respond..
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:16 PM   #12
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I predict MY2011 Legacy and Impreza will be diesel-only in US.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by AVANTI R5 View Post
But if Subaru see's VW selling alot of 4motionGolf Diesels they will respond..
Keep in mind VW has always jumped into the US market with diesel cars when the laws allowed them. Plus if you look at the number of VW Diesels vs all the othe VW's they sell diesel hardly even registers on the scale. The main advantage diesel gives to VW is all the free press of having a "normal" car that posts some of the highest milege numbers on US shores. The marketing guys have a field day with them and VW has a pretty solid Diesel following.

Subaru diesel? It's a huge question mark - and the big IF is just how much value does Subaru put on marketing best inclass milege? Historically speaking Subaru has never really put milege high on its list of priorities as long as their cars fell in the average range and were the only or almost only AWD cars it didn't really matter.

Times have changed! The current out back gets maybe 28mpg with a tail wind on the highway - there will be people that claim more as always but I think every subaru owner will tell you over time/vehicle age their milege drops. Another advantage to diesels is that they tend to get better milege over time which is clearly the preferred direction most of us would want to go.

Performance models will always need to be gas engine vehicles - but all the standard every day uses people use their cars for diesel engines fit the need much better - lots of power at low RPM's = much more enjoyable around town driving. Long distance trips low RPM's - lower noise - better milege etc. You like to go to the track on the weekends the gas engine is more enjoyable high RPM's faster acceleration etc.

Given the current trend in the market. I think we will see GM and Ford continue with their main models as they are given they don't have the funds to make any major changes. Then they will probably come out with some type of plugin car to prove they aren't dinosaurs in the design dept- but the plugin will be a leased ownership - be priced high and really have a much lower practicality than if they were to simply take the time to clean up their smaller diesel engines for passenger car use in the US. The Chinese and Korean autobuilders are taking diesel serious and are busting butt to wrap their cars in good looking sheet metal.

In 3-5 yrs I bet you the Domestic builders will still be in a world of hurt given people are finding a large sized 4dr Hyundia with a 200hp diesel that gets 40mpg and priced the same as a Chevy Malibu with a gasser or even a di Gasser that gets lesser milege isn't a good value. Diesel prices will change so will gas prices. But Given the increased milege of diesels and the clean technology - there is going to be alot of pressure on the GOV to even things out when it comes to diesel vs gas cost. Not to mention if any of the bio diesel concepts end up working well there will be even more pressure on our new Gov to make changes that encourage diesel passenger car use.

Hybrids are inbetween cars they are terrible electric cars and they still burn gas. The technology will impact what we drive in the future but they are not the solution to replace the 99% of the cars on the road today that are all standard combustion engine vehicles.

If all of us were to switch to diesels right this minute the demand for oil in the US would drop through the floor simply because everyone is getting 20-35% better milege with zero behavior change. Not to mention the resources needed for diesel cars is pretty much the same as gas cars.

Now if all of us were to all switch to hybrid cars right this minute - we would see a big drop in oil demand - but we would see a massive jump in resources costs for all the extra crap that goes into a hybrid. Not to mention the whole issue of old batteries.

Diesel isn't the cure all - neither are our current hybrids, but from an economic and engineering stand point clean diesel is something we can have right now with very little added cost or materials impact along with the products being profitable vs under water like most of the low volume hybrids.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:21 PM   #14
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Which means that I'm very close to deciding on a MB diesel and researching 08 prices. Assuming the MB gives us resonably trouble free ownership and no doubt raises our expectations on seat comfort/interior I doubt we will own another subaru. Then again the MB adventure could be a complete and total disaster which case I hope by then I have other diesel options.
The newest (post-Chrysler) ones are supposed to be a lot more reliable than the older ones. Depreciation is still pretty bad though so buying a new Benz is never IMO going to be a good idea. Plus the routine maintenance is spendy.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:23 PM   #15
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Diesel pricing - and pump costs are way - way to complex for the average US consumer to do 6th grade math to see the advantage of diesel
Diesel gets about 50% better mileage than gas but the fuel costs about 50% more so its a wash. Plus diesel cars cost more up front. What advantage? A year ago there was one, now not really.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:38 PM   #16
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Diesel gets about 50% better mileage than gas but the fuel costs about 50% more so its a wash. Plus diesel cars cost more up front. What advantage? A year ago there was one, now not really.
Mike do the math. Diesels get between 20 -40% better than the gas equal. Historically speaking diesel runs about 16% more than gas at the pump.

Keep in mind the largest impacts on diesel fuel costs are #1 Military activity #2 jet fuel demand #3 heavy trucking - trains and heating oil.

Anyone would be going out on a limb here saying this but I would say that Obama is going to be very anti military action the next few years. Assuming that diesel fuel costs should drop some. Also Obama has said over and over and over - how green tech is critical to our country and economy all the bio diesel concepts that have been worked on the past few years are going to see alot of GOV support to find a good system to make bio diesel.
Another factor that will only lessen the cost of diesel over time.

One thing we all know - oil costs are going up regardless of what happens in the US - China - India - Japan - UK everyone wants to own products dependant on oil - your a fool if you think we will never see $5 gas prices again. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we see a huge spike in prices this next summer given the oil producers have backed way off on their production and here in the US we have people buying up full size trucks at half price. That and any fuel saving interests are taking a back seat to being cheap and saving money right now.

It would be way - cheaper for me to keep my old Land cruiser that gets 14mpg than to go out and pick up a year old MB diesel for $32,000 - but in a year or so when prices shoot up again and 14mpg sucks money out of your wallet like a shopvac - that $32,000 MB that gets 28-30mpg on the highway and hauls as much as the old Landcrusher is going to be pretty damn nice.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:42 PM   #17
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In Washington, we have huge taxes on Diesel that are making it ~25-50% more expensive than gas, depending on how high gas is (the lower price gas, the higher premium Diesel)

Our governments will need to stop being pigs if diesel is to be viable, at least in Washington.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:46 PM   #18
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^^OK, fine, maybe in the long run diesels make more sense. But from SOA's point of view, there is no need to rush to bring them to the US.

Check out http://www.benzworld.org/forums/ BTW and note how many posts are about various expensive problems people are having with their Benzes ...
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:50 PM   #19
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In Washington, we have huge taxes on Diesel that are making it ~25-50% more expensive than gas, depending on how high gas is (the lower price gas, the higher premium Diesel)

Our governments will need to stop being pigs if diesel is to be viable, at least in Washington.
Yes no doubt - I think if we see the GOV pumping lots or research into bio diesel technology there will be alot of pressure on the unbalanced diesel taxing thats happening across the US.

The major reason most states justify the tax is pollution - but that argument is not valid anymore. When you have a 5000lb 6-7 passenger vehicle that gets better milage than a 4cylinder 4passenger car - and the 5000lb car emits no more possibly less emissions than the 4 passenger car, The pollution argument gets laughed out the door.

We all want cheap fuel - a big step in that direction is moving to the most efficient cars - the fuel taxing will need to be changed and addressed because progess to more fuel efficient cars and lower oil consumption demands are more important than a fuel tax.

That will bring up another issue - tax structures will change - we will end up paying tax on the miles we drive vs the fuel we use. Oregon and Washington have been messing around with this idea the past few years. It's only a matter of time before the tax at the pump is tied to our milege not our fuel.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:55 PM   #20
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^^OK, fine, maybe in the long run diesels make more sense. But from SOA's point of view, there is no need to rush to bring them to the US.

Check out http://www.benzworld.org/forums/ BTW and note how many posts are about various expensive problems people are having with their Benzes ...
Correct - the average American auto buyer is not going to purchase subaru Diesel on a scale to make it a slam dunk decision for Subaru. The reasons Subaru would bring diesel to the US - is for bragging rights on milege and positioning its products to be in the right place at the right time when the US auto shopper sees value in a diesel passenger car.

MB is betting that in the next 5yrs diesel passenger cars will make up something like 15% of all new car purchases. They have positioned them selves to be there with the product when the consumer decides diesel is the right way to go.

Not to mention I think MB is already seeing an advantage given they have a 7passenger SUV that gets equal or better milege than the big Hybrid SUV's only MB is taking their checks to the bank with a nice profit and GM is just trying to keep the lights on given the hybrid needs to sell for more to cover its cost.

MB knows it needs to fix its reliablity issues or its toast. When they have people like me considering their cars for the first time ever and the only thing keeping me from buying one is the completely unexcusable reliability history MB has no choice fix their poor record or get passed up when competitors show up. The MB diesel V6 is the only reason I'm looking at MB.

Last edited by SubaruFan; 12-18-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 12-18-2008, 06:42 PM   #21
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good news is we are getting the BMW 335d twin-sequential turbo diesel this year. hot-diggity- can't wait for the tuners to get a hold of that. 265 hp and 425 ft-lbs of torque out of the box! Too bad it weighs ~3800 lbs.

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Old 12-18-2008, 07:22 PM   #22
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MB knows it needs to fix its reliablity issues or its toast. When they have people like me considering their cars for the first time ever and the only thing keeping me from buying one is the completely unexcusable reliability history MB has no choice fix their poor record or get passed up when competitors show up. The MB diesel V6 is the only reason I'm looking at MB.
From what I have heard a lot of the problems were due to excessive "bean-counting" during the Daimler-Chrysler years and that the last few years are a lot better.

Like Frank says, BMW is also getting a very nice diesel which will be available in the X5 ...
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Old 12-18-2008, 07:41 PM   #23
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From what I have heard a lot of the problems were due to excessive "bean-counting" during the Daimler-Chrysler years and that the last few years are a lot better.

Like Frank says, BMW is also getting a very nice diesel which will be available in the X5 ...
The right step forward but for both MB and BMW I think they are making a huge mistake keeping with their high priced image brand approach and not bringing their cheaper smaller diesels to the US market. The price on the BMW diesel is going to make it a specialty low volume car in the US. However you sell an X3 for $1500 more with a diesel that gets 30% better milege and I can see a whole crap load of people taking a 2nd look at the X3.

Big reason I'm looking at MB is they are going on 4yrs now with the new diesel v6 and the Rclass which is kinda funky but has the same running gear as the ML - R is basically selling for half the price of a ML. Assuming MB has used its 4yrs to fix major issues with the 7spd in just about all their cars now - a diesel Rclass might just hold some serious value at a low 30K price point. The question is - at what point does the price equal the gamble your getting a good MB vs a lemon law vehicle which they have lots and lots of.. :-)
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:15 PM   #24
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saw this like today its not quite suby material but good news http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/f...uel/index.html
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:19 PM   #25
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a diesel Rclass might just hold some serious value at a low 30K price point. The question is - at what point does the price equal the gamble your getting a good MB vs a lemon law vehicle which they have lots and lots of.. :-)
For 30k you can get a decent used one. Just make sure you get the factory extended warranty (not 3rd-party)

I have to say, though, that the huge regular doors on the R-class are a big turn-off for me. Getting kids in and out of that car in a tight parking space must be a nightmare.
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