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Old 12-19-2008, 03:31 PM   #26
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^ I posted in another thread that if the government gives them only enough to stay in "emergency mode" then all this is going to do is postpone the inevitable. That's not good enough. They need enough to become competitive again (and honestly they were doing a decent enough job at becoming competitive in some segment, well that is until the economy took a dirt-nap)

Either way, this partial loan will keep them going long enough to get this useless administration out of here and let someone else clean up their mess.
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Old 12-19-2008, 03:49 PM   #27
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..........And I really wish people would stop comparing our financial predicament to the great depression. It's really a low blow to people who had to live through the great depression in the working class. It's getting pretty safe to say that basically nobody on this forum is old enough to have been of working age during the 1930's so I don't really think many of us have a concept of just how bad it was for some people back then.
I was actually talking to my grandfather the other day who who was in WW2 and lived through the great depression. He told me how when his mother passed away, his father left work for 2 days for the funeral and when he came back his job was gone. Then he went on to say how our current economical situation is going to be equal/worse than the great depression. During the Great Depression the PWA was formed and helped give out thousands of jobs and helped stimulate the economy. However, instead of our federal funding going towards public works projects it is going towards bailouts and loans for failing companies that are going to fail anyway.


We. are. screwed.
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Old 12-19-2008, 04:29 PM   #28
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the whole laying off xx,xxx employees to save xxx,xxx employees is what part of the proposal is when they mention that the UAW benefits and pay match those of their foreign counterparts. the thing i dont understand is, those in the UAW would rather risk the loss of a job than get a paycut across the board?

of course, those at the top of the companies should receive a paycut as well just to reflect that the effort to get these companies out of the red is mutual.
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Old 12-19-2008, 04:55 PM   #29
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I was actually talking to my grandfather the other day who who was in WW2 and lived through the great depression. He told me how when his mother passed away, his father left work for 2 days for the funeral and when he came back his job was gone. Then he went on to say how our current economical situation is going to be equal/worse than the great depression. During the Great Depression the PWA was formed and helped give out thousands of jobs and helped stimulate the economy. However, instead of our federal funding going towards public works projects it is going towards bailouts and loans for failing companies that are going to fail anyway.


We. are. screwed.
I hate to sound coarse, but your grandfather is completely wrong. There is no way this gets as worse as the Great Depression. 6 months ago the financial institutions were all clamoring if they did not get the money today, then we were all going to see financial ruin, and the heavens were going to rain down fire on us, and dogs and cats were going to sleeping together. Well, the money has been approved but they still have not received it, and low and behold, my bank still has its doors opened, my job has not laid off anybody, my wife still have steady employment. I still manage to go to grocery stores and find food and drink there. Gasoline still flows from the pumps, and I still get direct TV. I think the credit crunch is going to get worse, I think loans will be a bit tougher to get, but 1 out of 3 Americans without a job like it was in the Great Depression is NOT going to happen.

the sooner you stop listening to the news and TV and realize that the world is a very stable place and the sins of a few usually never see it into our breakfast table. The sun will come up tomorrow, and day by day this too shall pass. If you just ignore the hype, live within your means, and do what it takes to feed and clothe your family, then things have a way to work things out.
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:17 PM   #30
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I hate to sound coarse, but your grandfather is completely wrong. There is no way this gets as worse as the Great Depression. 6 months ago the financial institutions were all clamoring if they did not get the money today, then we were all going to see financial ruin, and the heavens were going to rain down fire on us, and dogs and cats were going to sleeping together. Well, the money has been approved but they still have not received it, and low and behold, my bank still has its doors opened, my job has not laid off anybody, my wife still have steady employment. I still manage to go to grocery stores and find food and drink there. Gasoline still flows from the pumps, and I still get direct TV. I think the credit crunch is going to get worse, I think loans will be a bit tougher to get, but 1 out of 3 Americans without a job like it was in the Great Depression is NOT going to happen.

the sooner you stop listening to the news and TV and realize that the world is a very stable place and the sins of a few usually never see it into our breakfast table. The sun will come up tomorrow, and day by day this too shall pass. If you just ignore the hype, live within your means, and do what it takes to feed and clothe your family, then things have a way to work things out.

+1212323243423231

Most intelligent post in this thread.
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:38 PM   #31
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+1212323243423231

Most intelligent post in this thread.

+1
SCRAPPYDO most definitely knows what he’s talking about
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:33 PM   #32
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Last I checked, half a million people became unemployed last month. The sins of the few are rolling downhill. Even Toyota & Honda are posting losses for this half of the year, and maybe the whole.

I don't think it will be as worse as the depression, but it isn't going away anytime soon.
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:47 PM   #33
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the whole laying off xx,xxx employees to save xxx,xxx employees is what part of the proposal is when they mention that the UAW benefits and pay match those of their foreign counterparts. the thing i dont understand is, those in the UAW would rather risk the loss of a job than get a paycut across the board?

of course, those at the top of the companies should receive a paycut as well just to reflect that the effort to get these companies out of the red is mutual.
Its not the hourly rate that is bad. The legacy costs are what makes it look so bad. You cant just get rid of the pensions though. Do you know many ppl receiving a pension can't physically work anymore.
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Old 12-19-2008, 07:52 PM   #34
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Its not the hourly rate that is bad. The legacy costs are what makes it look so bad. You cant just get rid of the pensions though. Do you know many ppl receiving a pension can't physically work anymore.
Exactly, it's not fair. Those workers who worked during the good times of the big 3 shouldn't be punished for it's current failings.

Imagine, if you worked during the 60s, 70s, and 80s for GM and because of the wonderful success they were enjoying, you managed to negotiate a contract to get health care and pensions. Then years later GM says that because of the crappy choices they've made they can no longer pay.

The UAW went on strike in 2007 because GM wasn't willing to give them anything if they took over pensions (i.e. UAW members would pay for UAW retirees that GM hired). They hadn't gone on strike since the early 70s.

I think it's a little unfair that unions take all the heat for this, when it was the CEOs who negotiated the contracts (all to willingly), planed product development, hired the economists and MBAs, and now they want to reneg on the workers. I'm sure corporate employees have (err..had) excellent 401k plans but they're not asking for a no withdraw clause from them.
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
the sooner you stop listening to the news and TV and realize that the world is a very stable place and the sins of a few usually never see it into our breakfast table. The sun will come up tomorrow, and day by day this too shall pass. If you just ignore the hype, live within your means, and do what it takes to feed and clothe your family, then things have a way to work things out.
I just took a 12% pay cut and haven't got any bonuses this year. I was within my means before, now I have to sell some one of them to stay within my new means. I would say that it has had a significant enough impact in my life.

However, I don't see this becoming nearly as dismal as the Great Depression either.
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Old 12-20-2008, 04:02 AM   #36
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How many wind turbines would 17.4 billion dollars buy?
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Old 12-20-2008, 04:12 AM   #37
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The reason the Big Three is in trouble in the first place is because goverment got thier nose in thier buisness in the first place .
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:24 AM   #38
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The reason the Big Three is in trouble in the first place is because goverment got thier nose in thier buisness in the first place .
I think it is due to the subpar quality over the last 40 years, greedy and corrupt CEO's, and the stupid idea to introduce unions into labor where a factory worker can make 80-100k a year in pay.
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:26 AM   #39
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The reason the Big Three is in trouble in the first place is because goverment got thier nose in thier buisness in the first place .
:Picard:

Another FAIL of a post. Keep it up, you're on a roll.


If the EPA forced them to increase their CAFE numbers over the last 3 decades, Detroit would have been a MUCH better position to complete with their foreign competition.
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:59 AM   #40
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Either way, this partial loan will keep them going long enough to get this useless administration out of here and let someone else clean up their mess.
So much faith in government when all they've ever done is stifle the private sector...
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:35 AM   #41
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I think it is due to the subpar quality over the last 40 years, greedy and corrupt CEO's, and the stupid idea to introduce unions into labor where a factory worker can make 80-100k a year in pay.
I don't like unions but I wouldn't knock them completely. Unions were necessary long ago when factory jobs were hazardous, pay sucked, and workers were forced to work long hours but we now have larger organizations that enforce those rules so the union is now pretty much just draining those companies because they have inflated pay and benefits beyond what the companies can actually afford to pay in the long run.

It also wouldn't hurt them to design and produce cars that people want to buy.
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #42
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I just took a 12% pay cut and haven't got any bonuses this year. I was within my means before, now I have to sell some one of them to stay within my new means. I would say that it has had a significant enough impact in my life.

However, I don't see this becoming nearly as dismal as the Great Depression either.
I think you're on the right track. I didn't get a raise during my last annual review with my company on a wage freeze and we've had to lay off some of our workforce. But the lay-offs stopped a while back once we reached some equilibrium in output. We've actually hired a few back recenty. I live well within my means as well... the only debt I have is some student loans and what's left of my car loan (about a year left), which is a pretty small monthly hit since I bought a used car. It's definitely not good times, but my company would have collapsed long ago in a depression scenario. People that are in trouble are those who spend exactly what they make or more on monthly payments for eveyrthing that they've had financed, so if they do have to take a cut, there's no wiggle room.

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Exactly, it's not fair. Those workers who worked during the good times of the big 3 shouldn't be punished for it's current failings.
But this stuff is what companies do during hard times. They cut back a bit. I know it's not fair to cut back on things like pensions, but when those pensions were agreed upon, the auto industry was a very very different place. As usual, I think a compromise is in order. I'm not saying cut pensions across the board, but I think it's perfectly logical to say cut pension payouts in half. It's either loose some of those legacy costs and have folks agree to take some pay cuts or the company goes down and all of those folks on GM pensions will get nothing at all and none of the UAW workers will have a clock to punch in on. Sometimes you have to go with the lesser of 2 evils. I know it sucks, and no it's not fair (life isn't fair, but the majority of people in this country have somehow forgotten that). If I had a choice between no pension and keeping half of a pension, I'd be pissed, but I'd accept the latter.

You know what else is not fair? Some bit of my tax money is going to stringing out a bunch of GM pensions and overpaid UAW workers for another 3 months before they come back begging for more. Do they deserve my hard earned money just because some GM exec agreed to these pensions 4-5 (maybe more?) decades ago? Do they deserve that money more than our crumbling infrastructure? Is that fair at all?

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Old 12-20-2008, 01:56 PM   #43
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Thats your idea, cut pensions in half. Cut the pay of ppl who cant work anymore. Dont you think it might be a slightly better idea to cut the current wages. Also who are you to say they are overpaid. Its also a loan. Therefore none of your so called hard earned money is going anywhere.

Its funny how you all bitch like you were going to see your tax dollars anyway. Its gone to never see again. So what does it matter where the govt uses it. You didnt have a say before so why should you get one now.


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I think you're on the right track. I didn't get a raise during my last annual review with my company on a wage freeze and we've had to lay off some of our workforce. But the lay-offs stopped a while back once we reached some equilibrium in output. We've actually hired a few back recenty. I live well within my means as well... the only debt I have is some student loans and what's left of my car loan (about a year left), which is a pretty small monthly hit since I bought a used car. It's definitely not good times, but my company would have collapsed long ago in a depression scenario. People that are in trouble are those who spend exactly what they make or more on monthly payments for eveyrthing that they've had financed, so if they do have to take a cut, there's no wiggle room.



But this stuff is what companies do during hard times. They cut back a bit. I know it's not fair to cut back on things like pensions, but when those pensions were agreed upon, the auto industry was a very very different place. As usual, I think a compromise is in order. I'm not saying cut pensions across the board, but I think it's perfectly logical to say cut pension payouts in half. It's either loose some of those legacy costs and have folks agree to take some pay cuts or the company goes down and all of those folks on GM pensions will get nothing at all and none of the UAW workers will have a clock to punch in on. Sometimes you have to go with the lesser of 2 evils. I know it sucks, and no it's not fair (life isn't fair, but the majority of people in this country have somehow forgotten that). If I had a choice between no pension and keeping half of a pension, I'd be pissed, but I'd accept the latter.

You know what else is not fair? Some bit of my tax money is going to stringing out a bunch of GM pensions and overpaid UAW workers for another 3 months before they come back begging for more. Do they deserve my hard earned money just because some GM exec agreed to these pensions 4-5 (maybe more?) decades ago? Do they deserve that money more than our crumbling infrastructure? Is that fair at all?
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:20 PM   #44
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I say "half" as sort of a random figure, an example. And yes people's pay and pension will be cut when a company collapses, this is called reality. What I am saying is that it would be better to come to a compromise that keeps the company viable than loosing everything.

I'm not anyone to say if they are overpaid or not... whether or not their pay is fair is something that is determined by the market for their product. And since the cost of their labor causes their product to be either unprofitable or non-competitive... They are basically by definition overpaid. If I want to make a product that won't competitively sell for more than $200, with $50 going to materials costs. I can't pay somebody $180 to put it together for me, because that would not make any sense, I would be overpaying for labor and loosing money on every unit built. Either I'd have to raise the price of my product to where it wouldn't be competitive or I have to find cheaper labor.

It could take a very long time to realize that loan if the company goes bankrupt or otherwise may not become profitable for a very long time.

Look, no pension or anything else in life is garunteed. A former worker's chance of keeping a pension at all is directly related to the likelyhood that the company providing that pension will stay in business. Wouldn't you rather see these pension holders able to hang onto some pension income instead of loosing it all? Another crazy crazy idea. Maybe the people who can't work anymore should have saved and invested wisely to provide for their own retirement? I'll probably have to do this if I ever want to retire, why shouldn't anybody else? But then again, that's the problem in this country these days isn't it. Don't worry, you can squander everything you have because it's the government's job to come and save you, right?

I pay a lot for social security every 2 weeks. Will I get anything out of it when I'm old and looking to retire in another 30 years or so? Actually I probably won't. How fair is that?

Look we can support retirement, healthcare, nationlized industry, and everything else for that matter all we want. It's called communism. And no I am not some redneck screaming "It's all them damned commies fault." Communism is actually a pretty good system in thoery. But with half of my family living in Poland, a close former Soviet satellite country, I can tell you first hand that communism isn't all it's cracked up to be in practice. Even short of a fully communist system, nationalizing industry or heavy government support in business is not always the best answer. Balanced regulation? Sure, that can be very good. But having the government become the main direct national financier of big business can become a very dangerous thing. Back to Poland: everybody in the country was expecting a nice cushy retirement, after all, they were under the umbrella of the huge and inpenatrable Soviet Union... Surely the government would never collapse, right? Oops, nevermind, I forgot I just mentioned that nothing in life is garunteed.

Did the majority of the U.S. population just completely stop paying attention to economics class a couple decades ago or something?

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Old 12-21-2008, 12:09 AM   #45
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Jhargis don't you see you are a ignorant typical Redneck, I see you must have slept through Social Studies. Canada you ignorant redneck has a national Health care program, Canada had and Does hold Major stock in crown corporations and has bought low and sold High ie Petro Canada at one time was owned as a crown corporation. Yes we do have a Canadain Pension Plan That I pay into every month, but is it really much to ask to help out when your parents our to poor to get the essentials.

If you wasnt for the mass majority of america spending outside their means to catch up to said neighbor or hollywood you wouldn't be in this mess.

The Big 3 have to go to the goverment to get Secured Loans because your BANKS screwed that over for them when they lost the ability to get them from private sources.

This topic is up everyweek and its all the same unsupported B.S

5% of the cost of the vehical is the unions, the people that actually make the cars. The rest is Ceo's and a bunch of idiots who couldnt fight themselves out of a paper bag if their life depended on it. The difference in wages between the to top 10% and the bottom 10% has increased from 100% to over a 1000% in the last 50yrs.

So please if you dump on the "worker on more time" please take a look in the mirror and think this, the shutting down of the big 3 would effect us globally those million jobs lost affect what those million people buy, which affects anybody in the goods and services industry and so on.

Everyone in this thread is so worried about 17billion dollars but will gladly piss away 10 Billion a month in Iraq so they can save face and not lose another War!

my .02 from a communist canadain
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:54 AM   #46
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Its funny how you all bitch like you were going to see your tax dollars anyway. Its gone to never see again. So what does it matter where the govt uses it. You didnt have a say before so why should you get one now.
Based on my own perspective as tax paying citizen, I want to know how the government plans to allocate my money for the betterment of the community. Citizens should have the right to be informed of where their money is going whenever possible, why should we be left in the dark for govt spending?
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:31 AM   #47
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Did the majority of the U.S. population just completely stop paying attention to economics class a couple decades ago or something?
No, they never took that class at all, or if they did they were not taught anything useful. Unfortunately most people have no idea how a free market works, so it is easy to convince them to support things like tariffs or socialized medicine.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:08 AM   #48
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Exactly, it's not fair. Those workers who worked during the good times of the big 3 shouldn't be punished for it's current failings.

Imagine, if you worked during the 60s, 70s, and 80s for GM and because of the wonderful success they were enjoying, you managed to negotiate a contract to get health care and pensions. Then years later GM says that because of the crappy choices they've made they can no longer pay.

The UAW went on strike in 2007 because GM wasn't willing to give them anything if they took over pensions (i.e. UAW members would pay for UAW retirees that GM hired). They hadn't gone on strike since the early 70s.

I think it's a little unfair that unions take all the heat for this, when it was the CEOs who negotiated the contracts (all to willingly), planed product development, hired the economists and MBAs, and now they want to reneg on the workers. I'm sure corporate employees have (err..had) excellent 401k plans but they're not asking for a no withdraw clause from them.
Um, what about Social Security, it's the same thing. We all might get screwed out of it, so what makes a Union Pension any different? Times change, they had the money at one point, now need it to stay afloat. Plus what about all the rest of Americans who don't get a pension? I'm tired of hearing how working in a Union gets you out of the boat that all of the rest of the Americans are in. I'm sorry, but the economy took your pensions like every other American, being part of a Union does not make you magically impervious to this.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:16 AM   #49
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I still expect and orderly bankruptcy in about 4 months time for GM and a chapter 7 for Chrysler.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:19 PM   #50
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Jhargis don't you see you are a ignorant typical Redneck, I see you must have slept through Social Studies. Canada you ignorant redneck has a national Health care program, Canada had and Does hold Major stock in crown corporations and has bought low and sold High ie Petro Canada at one time was owned as a crown corporation. Yes we do have a Canadain Pension Plan That I pay into every month, but is it really much to ask to help out when your parents our to poor to get the essentials.

If you wasnt for the mass majority of america spending outside their means to catch up to said neighbor or hollywood you wouldn't be in this mess...
Wow. Um. That was a nice jump to insult pretty quickly... Great way to support your argument and build credibility there.

I agree with you completely on the second part... Though I actually do live well within my means. I make over the median income, but I drive a used car and live under 3 miles away from work. I have one credit card and the balance is currently @ $0. The only loans I have outstanding are 1 student loan, that I've never had a late payment on, and 1 year left on my car loan. I'm also politically pretty nuetral, not really far liberal, not particularly conservative. I do live in arguably the most liberal state in the U.S. and I don't even have the stereotype southern accent. So do be a little more controlled in your insults before you jump straight to calling people ignorant rednecks

However, we Americans are not the only country on the planet with residents who are a little deep in debt. Last time I was in Canada, Visa and Master card logos were on store windows as well. Same in Europe. Citizens of pretty much every developed country are in the credit loop these days. You guys just didn't experience the same non-sensical insane housing boom that we did.

I work in manufacturing, logged some years with a few different companies... I have worked both in union and non-union shops, and I do have a bit of a bias against union labor now that there are federal regulations in place to control workers wages, hours, and safety (the main points that union's originally organized under). I think they were very neccessary at one time, but these days it's a pretty useless racket.

Canada is not what I would view as a communist country, niether is my own country, niether is Poland or the Soviet Union any more for that matter. I never said that government shouldn't have any hand in regulation or even financing certain aspects of day to day life. In fact, many of us Americans are rather envious of your healthcare system, even if I've heard that is short of glorious from my Canadian co-workers based at our plant in Toronto.

You also have to take into account the population and economy of a country. My home state of California alone has a higher GPD than your entire country (about 1.7 trillion vs. Canada's 1.2 trillion USD). California alone almost exactly matches Canada's population... Keep in mind I am talking about one of 50 states. As the scale of a beauracracy increases, it becomes harder and harder to efficiently manage. So policies that may be a drop in the bucket for a smaller populous may be quite a bit more difficult for a country the size of the U.S.

And if you think that labor accounts for 5% of a product's cost in U.S. domestic manufacturing... well. Holy crap man, that just makes me laugh (remember I do this stuff for a living), you have a vastly skewed view of just how much labor can cost a manufacturer. If you really really think that UAW labor only accounts for a 5% increase in total wages over an equivalent Toyota worker, than wow, you have a lot to learn. And even though it's a far higher margin in reality, let's say the UAW does account for only a 5% increase in cost just for giggles... Would you buy a non-union built car for $20,000 or an 100% equivalent union-built product for $21,000 (5% increase)? How would the Union-shop compete with this when few customers would be willing to spend the extra $1,000 for nothing?

My problem with all of this doesn't even really have to do with a bailout. Would I be happy seeing some tax money go to an effort that will probably result in a stronger economy? Sure, I really don't have a problem there. What gets me angry about this is that we will give up a large some of tax-money to string GM along for another 3 months and nothing will be accomplished, GM will still be in the red and will still go bankrupt because throwing money at the problem won't fix it... there are deeper roots to the problem that won't be fixed by this bailout plan, and the UAW is only one of many. And I'm not at all glad about 10billion/month in Iraq... Please do not mistake my government's actions as automatically being endorsed by me.

Also, be careful how much you buy into a Government pension plan. Remember that countries far larger and more powerful than your own had a population of people comforted by the idea of a state pension plan, and now that their government no longer exists or is having problems fulfilling that commitment to social security, they're screwed and having to work in their older age... Please trust me here. Maybe you'll be lucky and it will all work perfectly, but remember, a lot can change over a human being's 30-40 year working life.

Last edited by jhargis; 12-22-2008 at 01:11 PM.
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