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Old 12-22-2008, 02:06 PM   #51
Scrotus
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Why is it that you people get all up in arms over $17B in loans to the automakers, but nobody utters a peep about the banks? Take for example Goldman Sachs, who is allocating almost $11B in compensation and bonuses this year. Some employees are getting $200K bonuses. After taking how much taxpayer dollars?

I just don't get it. All this angst about Detroit while Wall Street walks away with orders of magnitude more taxpayer dollars. WTF is wrong with people? No wonder this country is ****ed.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:20 PM   #52
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^^^ I don't think anybody, myself included, really even understands the magnitude of a $700 billion bailout. $17B is easier to wrap your head around, and it doesn't help that everybody knows that a measly 17 billion without massive restructuring is not going to do a damned thing other than just burn some money to delay the inevitable for a few months.

Also, many of the people that aren't speaking up have their own large debts or mortgages on the verge of forclosure and for some reason, a lot of these people hear the word "bail-out" and think that this is going to somehow absolve them of their debts or make their debts more managable. Yes, the same people that were stupid enough to get that far in debt now think that a "bail-out" means they can stay in the house they owe so much on.

Don't forget that this is a forumn of car enthusiasts that pay more attention to the auto industry than the banking industry. If you went on an accountant's forumn, you'd probably see all kinds of ill comments.

Not saying I agree that any of this is good, but you asked why, and I answered. Personally, I am so disgusted by the larger bank bailout that I'm not even sure I can match words to my dissappointment in my Government... Entire revolutions have been spurred by problems that pale in comparison to this bank deal.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
^^^ I don't think anybody, myself included, really even understands the magnitude of a $700 billion bailout. $17B is easier to wrap your head around...
So true. Take a million dollars: enough to easily set anyone up for life, provided they use it wisely and don't blow it. Multiply it by 700. Then multiply that by 1000.

That's a lot of freaking money.
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:27 PM   #54
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^^^ I don't think anybody, myself included, really even understands the magnitude of a $700 billion bailout.
I agree, this is part of it. And I also agree with this...

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Also, many of the people that aren't speaking up have their own large debts or mortgages on the verge of forclosure and for some reason, a lot of these people hear the word "bail-out" and think that this is going to somehow absolve them of their debts or make their debts more managable.
I wonder what happens when Average Joe realizes nothing is going to change his personal debt situation.

I also wonder how many people still think the bank bailout is $700B, not realizing that another zero got tacked onto the end.

But you're right, this is a car forum, not a bank forum.

How many automakers will there be worldwide in two years? Half a dozen?
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:30 PM   #55
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So true. Take a million dollars: enough to easily set anyone up for life, provided they use it wisely and don't blow it. Multiply it by 700. Then multiply that by 1000.

That's a lot of freaking money.
It's kind of funny isn't? People use to revolt over little things like taxing tea too much. Now we spend 600+ times the annual gross domestic product of Canada in one sitting, and it's so big, people just kind of shrug their shoulders and don't know what to say!
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:31 PM   #56
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Prediction:
-GM & Chrysler Exec's get a $1.4 million Christmas bonus
-Fly whole company to Bermuda for "morale building"
-Complains to congress on March 29th that the global economy will collapse if they don't get another 24 billion


You heard it here first
Yeah and when they all flew to Washington to talk about their troubles they each took their own jets...costing how much to fuel. I blame them for having to wait to get my G8.
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:00 AM   #57
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jhargis I had a huge reply but I lost it so I will suumarize:

My apologize I was heated at the time of post, But generalizations can do that. I was just really trying to get to the point that national health care or any other social program based on the common good and doesn't limit to how much you can afford isnt communism, it's doing the right thing for all. We could go back and forth and agrue politics all day long and I do understand the US has problems that are made in the U.S.A as the same is true in Canada.
My major arguement is truly I think the word Bailout should have been changed to what it really is secured Loans as the banks our now touchy about that area as they had there pepe's spanked, but they actually got bail outs and as said before it had a few more zeros compared to 17 billion

That and its hard to make money when 50% of the leases and finacing in general over the last 3-5yrs may be going defunkt due to poor credit and money management.

Also 5% is the ball park number for cost of labor to build a vehical, that number doesnt change for any major auto company the price of that 5% I will agree it could change depending on workers wages, But actual time spent on a car by raw human labor is 5%, the rest of your car price is R&D costs spaced out across all cars made and some very over priced ceo's etc.. that collect way to much money while not doing anything.

It just pisses me off when everyone looks to the workers first as they our vast in numbers to trim fat when in reality its the engineers, ceo's designers that made a failing product and who's salaries make up a way higher percent of your cars price

It's also nice to see the all powerful Toyota is now expectiong to be in the red as well, so shouldn't we all agree yes this is a huge wake up call for the Big 3 to start building the quality products on mass instead of getting trickles of what they can really do Ie. corvette,charger, Jeep diesel cherokee,Caddy cts-v, g8 etc. But in turn its really the economy which is screwing them as people are scared to buy and with any company with huge overhead it gets tuff.
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:40 AM   #58
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The bailout plan for GM is stupid. There are too many stipulations for the bailout plan to work. For one GM needs a feasible plan that will allow them to come back to life. Their idea of cutting back and making more hybrid vehicles is not going to work. Hybrid car sales are decreasing, nonetheless all sales.

Sure, the millions of lost jobs will hurt, but if the economy is able to regain stability then it will all be for the better. The economy will start to boom soon and there are better ways to spend 17.4billion dollars that will more than likely add up to over 100billion. We should focus more on trying to regain economic stability rather than waste money and delay the recession that will get bigger the longer we postpone it. Just my .02.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:32 AM   #59
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Canada is not what I would view as a communist country, niether is my own country, niether is Poland or the Soviet Union any more for that matter. I never said that government shouldn't have any hand in regulation or even financing certain aspects of day to day life. In fact, many of us Americans are rather envious of your healthcare system, even if I've heard that is short of glorious from my Canadian co-workers based at our plant in Toronto.


Why are you comparing Canada to communist countries? Last I checked, Socialism and Communism were two completely different things. You should probably have substituted France and Italy for Poland and the Soviet Union.
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:44 PM   #60
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jhargis I had a huge reply but I lost it so I will suumarize:
Well said, and trust me I too understand being frustrated by narrow minded people. It's easy to become heated on these types of subjects. I completely agree that, done properly, social programs can be very successful. This has been demonstrated by many western european countries as well as your own here on our shared continent... Heck there are even social programs that have worked well here in the states.

There is a line between controlled government and all-out communism. I get passionate about this subject because of my family background, and I meant that allowing the government to become the primary financier for a country can lead to problems. The prime problem that I see with this is that I think government should act as a safety net rather than a primary line of economic defense. Banks loaned money, their loans defaulted and banks were basically going to collapse. If the Government loans money and those loans default, well you see where I'm going with this. And that is what scares me. My government keeps dipping into the public funds to finance mismanaged and badly structured companies that are, in my estimation, likely to just burn the money away anyway and come back for more. Though this is completely based on personal opinion, and everybody has a right to one that may differ from my own. I apologize as well that my discontent with this situation often comes out more passionately than it should. Probably doesn't help that the term "communism" got so skewed during the McCarthy era here in the states in the first place.

Management problems and labor problems are often very intertwined. It's tough to keep good labor for cheap. But it is impossible to be competitve if your hands are tied by labor costs. Management may have their hands tied in some cases. They are blamed for shortsightedness, yet trucks/SUVs were really the only products they could be competitve with considering all of the costs involved. Customers accept ancient designs in trucks like body-on-frame construction and leaf springs and stuff like that where customers looking for a family sedan won't stand for that kind of cost cutting in design. Engineers almost always have their hands tied by the bean counters. When engineers are allowed to go wild with a car, you get the Veyron... But who can really afford that thing? And since management makes bad decisions based on either their business structure or just plain bad management forsight, worker morale tends to drop and you get all kinds of other labor relations problems. So it's all kind of a viscious cycle. I think the UAW is a big contributor to their current situation, but there are plenty of other problems in the mix.

Another big problem here is that on one hand you have a large group of people that have planned their life based on a pension. But on the other hand you have a company that cannot support these pensions in their current condition. I'm not saying erase all of these pensions and let the old timers rot away in poverty. But if GM collapses, they will get nothing, $0, there will be no GM (as they know it) to pay their pension. I would rather see a compromise between 3 parties: GM, the UAW, and the pension holders. I mean maybe some UAW workers have to absorb a pay cut OR better yet, a large part of these pensions could be payed with union dues... Union dues actually going back to better the lives of the workers, something has not been a reality for decades. Maybe the pension holders have to eat a little less income. But any way around it, it's better than watching GM go into bankruptcy with a large likelyhood that pension holders would get nothing at all or very very little. What's done is done, GM is in the red and fading fast, so at this point damage control is in order, and without some change to their current overhead, this bailout is not going to make everything better. When you have a company the size of GM, you can cut your entire executive staff's pay, well into the millions per year, and that's a tiny blip on the billions per month they are burning through just to stay in business. For GM to work, there needs to be compromise from all sides and major changes in how they do business. Though I do agree with you that executive pay has gotten completely insane. Pay some guy many millions + stock options + fringe benefits to sit in an office occasionally, take some conference calls, and have a few meetings... crazy.

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Why are you comparing Canada to communist countries? Last I checked, Socialism and Communism were two completely different things. You should probably have substituted France and Italy for Poland and the Soviet Union.
It was in response to kolumbo69's facitious remark "my .02 from a communist canadian." I wasn't really putting Canada in a league with former communist countries, just trying to make it clear that I'm not a commie hatin' patriotism monger

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Old 12-23-2008, 04:01 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
It was in response to kolumbo69's facitious remark "my .02 from a communist canadian." I wasn't really putting Canada in a league with former communist countries, just trying to make it clear that I'm not a commie hatin' patriotism monger
I thought so...I really wish NASIOC allowed multiple quoting so you could follow a conversation better.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:03 PM   #62
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I thought so...I really wish NASIOC allowed multiple quoting so you could follow a conversation better.


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:41 PM   #63
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No, I meant embedded quotes.
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:27 AM   #64
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You know what would be funny. If someone posted that hilarious picture about building ****ty cars and the bailout coming this january. You know that one that some douchebag posts in every bailout topic.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:44 AM   #65
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^ Oh, you mean the one they're getting infractions for? Yeah....
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:55 AM   #66
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Thats your idea, cut pensions in half. Cut the pay of ppl who cant work anymore. Dont you think it might be a slightly better idea to cut the current wages. Also who are you to say they are overpaid. Its also a loan. Therefore none of your so called hard earned money is going anywhere.

Its funny how you all bitch like you were going to see your tax dollars anyway. Its gone to never see again. So what does it matter where the govt uses it. You didnt have a say before so why should you get one now.
all the people w/ 401K's instead of pensions lost about half of their value.. why can't pensions get hit too? its supposed to be better to manage your own retirement.... if the pension people get to keep all of their benefits while the 401k folks all get hit, it just doesn't seem fair.
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:04 AM   #67
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all the people w/ 401K's instead of pensions lost about half of their value.. why can't pensions get hit too? its supposed to be better to manage your own retirement.... if the pension people get to keep all of their benefits while the 401k folks all get hit, it just doesn't seem fair.
The only people who lost half their 401(k) value were those far enough from retirement to invest in higher risk options. The 401(k) users that are analoguous to the pensioners you describe are the ones already pulling money from it, and they shouldn't have had their 401(k) in stocks at this point.
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Old 12-24-2008, 11:40 AM   #68
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The only people who lost half their 401(k) value were those far enough from retirement to invest in higher risk options. The 401(k) users that are analoguous to the pensioners you describe are the ones already pulling money from it, and they shouldn't have had their 401(k) in stocks at this point.
Most people I know take a 401(K) that's managed by the company and not self managed. They treat it like a retirement and not like an investment account. Plus most retirement funds are handled by private firms that do invest the money in stuff (not just stocks, but real estate, etc.), so retirement funds aren't impervious either.

Plus I still don't think it's smarts as a company that when your in a position like one of the automakers to not tap a large retirement fund to stay in business. I think it should be a last ditch effort, but in this case I think it really is the time to do it.
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Old 12-25-2008, 04:23 AM   #69
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all the people w/ 401K's instead of pensions lost about half of their value.. why can't pensions get hit too? its supposed to be better to manage your own retirement.... if the pension people get to keep all of their benefits while the 401k folks all get hit, it just doesn't seem fair.
Fair, the world isnt fair. Well how about this then. If they lose some of there hourly rate i think you should also. You know it just doesnt seem fair if you didnt.

You see how dumb that sounds. Thats exactly what you wrote.
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