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Old 12-23-2008, 11:17 AM   #1
Homemade WRX
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Default coilover questions for the motorsports section

I ask this here instead of in the suspension section as I want the motorsports input on it. I'm currently trying to get some initial suspension under my car so I can get it moving ASAP (I plan on upgrading later).

I'm stuck between two 'lesser', used coilover setups as my budget is tight right now. They both seem to be 2-way adjustable from all the info I find (and the price )

The options are:

Endless/Zeal Function 6 (10/8k) with camber plates front and rear

and

BC BR series (8/6k) with camber plates front and rear

I know both are crappy but I was curious if anyone had experience with either. I'm not concerned about spring rates on either but was more curious as to valving/adjustments on them. I just plan to use them for being on the dyno and hopefully no more than the first few track events, while I save for some a nicer setup.

thanks for any input,
Micah
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:22 AM   #2
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How cheap are you getting these? What spring length and diameter do they use? What's on the car now?

Duncan
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:32 AM   #3
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well right now, I'm running nothing. I've just intalled a complete 05 STi setup (minus struts springs and swaybars). I'm still trying to find any info on the coilovers now and can't find anything of actual use. Hence my starting this thread...the BC's are $600 right now and the Zeals are $800.

I'd ideally go with the discount I have with JRZ but well, don't have the $$ just yet. Either that or the GC's with Koni's like you had been telling me about and you now are running.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:52 AM   #4
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You plan on selling them AFTER you get your "good" set?

(im just thinking for resale later)......
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
You plan on selling them AFTER you get your "good" set?

(im just thinking for resale later)......
exactly...buy used and then sell them for about the same...minimal losses, hopefully.
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:05 PM   #6
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I run a custom BC Racing setup on our 08 WRX "Street" class time attack car and have 2 wins out of three races run. I also have the track record for Summit Point in NASA TTB at 1:23 on street tires which is also faster than the TTA lap record. We played with spring rates, damper settings, preload, and ride height to get it all dialed in.

With most of the Asian coilovers the valving is very stiff but increasing the spring rate helps them become a winning combination on the track. My preference on the track has always been high spring rate and light valving (springs hold up the car. less swaybar is needed, and light valving helps the strut blow off on big impacts such as curbing).

So far for the money I'm extremely impressed with the quality and durability of my BC Racing Suspension.

....Yes I'm sponsored but I was impressed enough with BC (company, people, and the quality) that we are discussing running a custom set of their new double adjustables on our Time Attack STi.

Hope this helps.
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:12 PM   #7
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So Phil, what rates are you running now on your 08 and what is its weight?

what's custom about your setup? valving, height or was it a prototype 08 setup?

Thanks,
Micah
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Old 12-23-2008, 12:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I ask this here instead of in the suspension section as I want the motorsports input on it. I'm currently trying to get some initial suspension under my car so I can get it moving ASAP (I plan on upgrading later).

I'm stuck between two 'lesser', used coilover setups as my budget is tight right now. They both seem to be 2-way adjustable from all the info I find (and the price )

The options are:

Endless/Zeal Function 6 (10/8k) with camber plates front and rear

and

BC BR series (8/6k) with camber plates front and rear

I know both are crappy but I was curious if anyone had experience with either. I'm not concerned about spring rates on either but was more curious as to valving/adjustments on them. I just plan to use them for being on the dyno and hopefully no more than the first few track events, while I save for some a nicer setup.

thanks for any input,
Micah
Hey Micah, do you mean double adjustable dampers (bump and rebound) or double height adjustable? Because both are height adjustable, but I'm sure they only have rebound adjustment. If the prices are the same I'd go with the Zeals and this is my reasoning: I agree with Phil to an extent. I'd rather run less spring with a more aggressively valved shock. This allows the dampers to do what they're meant to do. If the shocks are valved properly they will be able to keep the body upright while running softer springs for the most traction. However, if you do not have that option, I'd do it exactly as Phil says and run a higher spring to keep the body upright during cornering. This set up doesn't give the driver much "feel" but you can't argue with the lap times.

Earl

BTW - Any luck on hunting down those pins for my harness?
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
So Phil, what rates are you running now on your 08 and what is its weight?

what's custom about your setup? valving, height or was it a prototype 08 setup?

Thanks,
Micah
My 08 is stock weight and maybe a little heavier as it has a Brembo upgrade, 18" wheels, 245 tires, bigger sway bars, etc so at least 3300 lbs.

We run 10kg springs which is still streetable with different valving than the WRX struts, and then all the clicker, preload, and ride height settings are done here. I want to make a few more changes to the valving but so far it's a winning package.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge Factory View Post
If the shocks are valved properly they will be able to keep the body upright while running softer springs for the most traction. However, if you do not have that option, I'd do it exactly as Phil says and run a higher spring to keep the body upright during cornering. This set up doesn't give the driver much "feel" but you can't argue with the lap times.
I'm sorry but I hear this a lot and it's incorrect. The valving does not hold the car up in the turns, it's all spring, and sway bar. Valving will let you run less spring rate to control yaw, squat, and dive initially but it's the spring rate that keeps the car up in the turns. If you tried to run enough valving to make the car acceptable in the criteria mentioned then it's going to pack and toss the car around more when hitting curbing etc. You could then run enormous sway bars to help but then you just end up picking the inside wheels up, loosing grip, and the ability to accelerate as hard. Also for a road race car with limited travel you would be constantly on the bump stops.

For off road, a softer spring with more valving works.
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:48 PM   #11
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Micah with ur maching ability, you could easily hone a set of stock 05 sti struts out to fit some some KONI inserts, for the fronts, and use some wrx's in the rear. Pretty simple setup that would work pretty darn well!
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
I'm sorry but I hear this a lot and it's incorrect. The valving does not hold the car up in the turns, it's all spring, and sway bar. Valving will let you run less spring rate to control yaw, squat, and dive initially but it's the spring rate that keeps the car up in the turns. If you tried to run enough valving to make the car acceptable in the criteria mentioned then it's going to pack and toss the car around more when hitting curbing etc. You could then run enormous sway bars to help but then you just end up picking the inside wheels up, loosing grip, and the ability to accelerate as hard. Also for a road race car with limited travel you would be constantly on the bump stops.

For off road, a softer spring with more valving works.
Agreed. The damper exists to do exactly what it sounds like...damp the movements of the spring. When you're optimizing a coilover setup, you want to select the proper spring rates for your application and then match the valving in the dampers to those rates. Trying to overcome improper spring rates with valving changes doesn't work well at all. Phil's approach makes more sense since many of the double adjustable dampers out there make adjustments primarily in the high speed range, so you can dial back the settings a bit to lessen the impact of bouncing off of curbing and things like that and still have enough low speed damping to maintain some feel. Personally though I prefer to match the damping and spring rates in the traditional sense, unless you're using a 3 or 4 way adjustable damper, in which case things get a lot more complicated but also infinitely better if you set them up correctly.
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
I'm sorry but I hear this a lot and it's incorrect. The valving does not hold the car up in the turns, it's all spring, and sway bar. Valving will let you run less spring rate to control yaw, squat, and dive initially but it's the spring rate that keeps the car up in the turns. If you tried to run enough valving to make the car acceptable in the criteria mentioned then it's going to pack and toss the car around more when hitting curbing etc. You could then run enormous sway bars to help but then you just end up picking the inside wheels up, loosing grip, and the ability to accelerate as hard. Also for a road race car with limited travel you would be constantly on the bump stops.

For off road, a softer spring with more valving works.
I meant that as running a shock with an aggressive rebound (progressive curve as well) to unwind the spring quickly (keeping the body upright) short of jacking the car. I do agree that softer bump valving (i personally prefer something aggressive initially, but digressive at the knee) to absorb impacts is necessary.
I know what you are saying and like I said, I agree to a point. If I wasn't limited to our GR+ coilovers (rebound adjustment only), I'd run our 3-ways (low speed bump, high speed bump, rebound) and run a slightly softer spring rate to suit the curves I mentioned. Since I am, I have tuned my car in pretty much the same fashion (12K front/10K or 11k rear depending on the track) as you. It isn't the best way to set up the car, but it does work. I don't think oversprung cars offer enough feel for the driver.

Last edited by Touge Factory; 12-23-2008 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:38 PM   #14
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this is on a swapped GC right?

what kind/size tires are you planning on running?


- drew
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
I run a custom BC Racing setup on our 08 WRX "Street" class time attack car and have 2 wins out of three races run. I also have the track record for Summit Point in NASA TTB at 1:23 on street tires which is also faster than the TTA lap record. We played with spring rates, damper settings, preload, and ride height to get it all dialed in.

With most of the Asian coilovers the valving is very stiff but increasing the spring rate helps them become a winning combination on the track. My preference on the track has always been high spring rate and light valving (springs hold up the car. less swaybar is needed, and light valving helps the strut blow off on big impacts such as curbing).

So far for the money I'm extremely impressed with the quality and durability of my BC Racing Suspension.

....Yes I'm sponsored but I was impressed enough with BC (company, people, and the quality) that we are discussing running a custom set of their new double adjustables on our Time Attack STi.

Hope this helps.
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
I thought you were happy with the support you recieved from JIC?
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Token-Negro View Post
Micah with ur maching ability, you could easily hone a set of stock 05 sti struts out to fit some some KONI inserts, for the fronts, and use some wrx's in the rear. Pretty simple setup that would work pretty darn well!
Well I had thought of that as a poor mans setup but between working 40 hours as an R&D engineer, working on customers engines, working on the car and being gone every weekend; I just don't have the time to hassle with it at the moment

I do however know that it is quite similar to the GC/Koni setups that Duncan had informed me of a while back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
this is on a swapped GC right?

what kind/size tires are you planning on running?


- drew
yes, its for a GC on 05 sti suspension/hubs. I can't run wider than 255 in the class I'm hoping to compete in. So I'm going to be trying to massage them into factory sheetmetal.
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:42 PM   #17
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Run the BC's. Nothing else compares to it at that price point. For the GC I would run 8k front 8k rear on them.
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Token-Negro View Post
Micah with ur maching ability, you could easily hone a set of stock 05 sti struts out to fit some some KONI inserts, for the fronts, and use some wrx's in the rear. Pretty simple setup that would work pretty darn well!
Couple threads on the topic ^^ for reference.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1505329
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1276865
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Old 12-24-2008, 07:04 PM   #19
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thanks for the input Doug and the leads recnelis...
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:44 PM   #20
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I have experience both with BC and Zeal V6's and don't think either are that great. They both had quality and damping issues. Could be fixed with custom damping though and if it's just a temporary solution anything would likely work.

On the damper tuning front, don't forget that some dampers are gas charged and realistically add to the overall spring rate in the setup.

Tony
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Old 12-28-2008, 09:02 PM   #21
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yeah they would be temporary but with my budget, I don't know how long I might end up on them....hence the starting of the thread.

BUT thanks to all for the input and help.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:12 AM   #22
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Default Question regarding spring rates

I have a 2007 WRX with K&W Variant 3 Coilovers. I been autocrossing for two seasons. I would like to get some advice on setup for short, tight autocross courses. I was told that the car may be to low and that I may not have enough shock travel (up and down) so I'm going to be lifting the car a little bit. I was told to come here and ask the question about spring rates. My current spring rates are, in the rear - progressive and in the front - 450-500. Can someone tell me how these are important and how it will make a difference with different rates? I'm REALLY clueless on all this suspension stuff. I have a nice setup I just don't know how I should adjust it all. Details regarding what I've got are on my website.

Thanks,
Troy
http://cars.badboytroyracing.com
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboytroy View Post
I have a 2007 WRX with K&W Variant 3 Coilovers. I been autocrossing for two seasons. I would like to get some advice on setup for short, tight autocross courses. I was told that the car may be to low and that I may not have enough shock travel (up and down) so I'm going to be lifting the car a little bit. I was told to come here and ask the question about spring rates. My current spring rates are, in the rear - progressive and in the front - 450-500. Can someone tell me how these are important and how it will make a difference with different rates? I'm REALLY clueless on all this suspension stuff. I have a nice setup I just don't know how I should adjust it all. Details regarding what I've got are on my website.

Thanks,
Troy
http://cars.badboytroyracing.com
First thing you'll want to do is get rid of those progressive rears. As far as spring rates and the rest of your setup, it really depends on a lot of factors. Tires, competition weight, the handling characteristics you prefer, etc.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:44 AM   #24
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Default Spring rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie View Post
First thing you'll want to do is get rid of those progressive rears. As far as spring rates and the rest of your setup, it really depends on a lot of factors. Tires, competition weight, the handling characteristics you prefer, etc.
I am running the stock weight of the car and have not removed anything other than the spare tire. The tires are 245/40 17 Hoosier A6's. I prefer to have less understeer. The camber in front is negative 2.7 and in the rear is negative 1.

What do the progressive springs in the rear do? Why is this something that I do not want?
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:03 PM   #25
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I thought you were happy with the support you recieved from JIC?
I was up until the second half of the season. With the economy the way it is many companies have cut back on staff and while I was promised anything I needed I just could never get it sent.

JIC has been good to me and built me a great setup but at this level of competition I wasn't able to get the support I needed. On a race car suspension components are consumables so this was a deal breaker for me.

BC has been very supportive and I'm confident we'll move to the next level with them.

Thanks,
Phil
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