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Old 09-30-2012, 01:21 AM   #501
fc_misc
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Haha, tracking on that!

So we're they originally MLS style? It has 207k miles and runs well.

Thanks ban suvs
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:31 AM   #502
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anyone have part #s for the MLS HGs that fit 04 SOHC?
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:11 AM   #503
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:27 AM   #504
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Why not the ...642 MLS from Subaru?
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Old 09-30-2012, 02:01 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
Based on what?
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #506
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1. Most reputable independent shops in the pacific northwest and the current shop working on my car all with first hand knowledge on headgasket repair believe it to be the best option.
2. It goes above and beyond the normal capabilities of the OEM 642 MLS gasket
The SIX STAR MLS “STOPPER” HEAD GASKET for Subaru is ideal for both aluminum heads and aluminum blocks. A better alternative compared to other gaskets made of bonded materials that fail prematurely due to load and heat dissipation problems! By design, the MLS (multi layer steel) STOPPER head gasket has a folded bore bead that encompasses the entire combustion area. This allows for a concentrated seal along a pin-pointed surface area encompassing the combustion chamber. The gasket promotes an even torque load across a wider area and requires less clamp force resulting in less bore distortion conforming load across the sealing area! No re-torque necessary. Gaskets are made of Stainless Steel for:

Increased strength
Ability to rebound
Corrosion resistance
Outer layers of the gasket are embossed and coated on both sides with a flouroelastomer rubber based material [Viton]:
Meets the demands of a variety of harsh environments

Load conditions/ less bore distortion
surface finishes/ better ring seal
The Viton coating is heat resistant to 250C or 453F. Center shim layer of the gasket is comprised of an uncoated stainless steel layer, which can be varied to accommodate multiple thickness requirements.

3. It's the correct thickness, no change in CR.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:12 PM   #507
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That description you posted is long on marketing and short on anything that actually carries meaning. It may work fine, but I'm not seeing anything special about it.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:54 PM   #508
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So Ban, you don't think independent shop anecdotal evidence is of any value?
Here's one from ultimatesubaru "These are the only head gaskets I've ever used at work, besides OEM for turbo motors. They are excellent. I use them on phase 1 & 2 motors and have never had a problem. They are great quality,"

Here's some information about Viton rubber used on headgaskets and why its better
http://www.dupontelastomers.com/Products/Viton/head.asp
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:24 AM   #509
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First off, I am not trying to naysay your experience with these or anything else. I'm just being skeptical about your evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
So Ban, you don't think independent shop anecdotal evidence is of any value?
The only thing I care to hear from an independent repair shop about an aftermarket part is how long they warranty it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
Here's one from ultimatesubaru "These are the only head gaskets I've ever used at work, besides OEM for turbo motors. They are excellent. I use them on phase 1 & 2 motors and have never had a problem. They are great quality,"
Who? Never heard of them. So no, I'm not going to run out and buy these because they like them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
Here's some information about Viton rubber used on headgaskets and why its better
http://www.dupontelastomers.com/Products/Viton/head.asp
Pretty much all MLS gaskets also use an elastomer coating, save maybe some of the extra-cheap ones. Even Felpro and Cometic use it. So while it's nice this brand uses a well-known source, they're not breaking any new ground here.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:42 PM   #510
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Ultimately, one has to see whether "better" has any practical implications. Assuming my OEM HGs fail at 100k miles, and that my car's expected lifespan is 200k miles, I don't care if the Six Star last 450 987 miles as opposed to the Subary 642s lasting 221 198 more miles. Unfortunately, experimntal evidence of a second HG failure is rare (except for a few dealer-replaced ones, in which case they use the OEM single-layered again).
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:47 PM   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post
Ultimately, one has to see whether "better" has any practical implications. Assuming my OEM HGs fail at 100k miles, and that my car's expected lifespan is 200k miles, I don't care if the Six Star last 450 987 miles as opposed to the Subary 642s lasting 221 198 more miles. Unfortunately, experimntal evidence of a second HG failure is rare (except for a few dealer-replaced ones, in which case they use the OEM single-layered again).
The practical implication of a mean lifespan 2.5x longer is that they are 2.5x less likely to fail on any given day- though both sets would have very small likelihoods.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:11 AM   #512
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True and True - Most cars won't ever see 200K Miles. The point is fairly moot.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:27 AM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
The practical implication of a mean lifespan 2.5x longer is that they are 2.5x less likely to fail on any given day- though both sets would have very small likelihoods.
That's false.

Your statement is only true if the probability distribution of the failure mode is random. If the probability distribution has any curve to it at all, and it does, then the relative odds of failure at any time t is not equal to the relative MTBFs of the two parts. Failure curves are almost always either bathtub shaped, normal distribution, or logarithmic. As a gut feeling, I'd say that the HGs themselves are almost certainly logarithmic.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:34 AM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
That's false.

Your statement is only true if the probability distribution of the failure mode is random. If the probability distribution has any curve to it at all, and it does, then the relative odds of failure at any time t is not equal to the relative MTBFs of the two parts. Failure curves are almost always either bathtub shaped, normal distribution, or logarithmic. As a gut feeling, I'd say that the HGs themselves are almost certainly logarithmic.
Yeah, true. It's about infinity times less likely to fail at 2.5x the lower expected life, and 1.0x times early on. It's late. I'm usually good with stats. Bleh.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:38 AM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
Yeah, true. It's about infinity times less likely to fail at 2.5x the lower expected life, and 1.0x times early on. It's late. I'm usually good with stats. Bleh.
I think I just score an internet trifecta I've just schooled someone on stats, religion, and guns on 3 different forums
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Old 10-02-2012, 02:52 AM   #516
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Now just add in politics and you'd have a grand slam.
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Old 10-03-2012, 04:27 PM   #517
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As Promised here is my work order for the Subaru. I had the supreme pizza done as you will see, and the guys at Six Star Service in Decatur, AL not only did fantastic work (engine out) but got it done timely and IMO at a good price. I enjoyed driving my car home from Atlanta (160 miles) and getting 31mpg with the tunes on and no problems

Code:
System				I/R	Parts Used / Info	Cost	Date
Head Gaskets			R	Six Star MLS		$153.90	Oct-12
Intake Manifold Gasket		R	Subaru OEM		$11.84	Oct-12
Exhaust Manifold Gasket		R	Subaru OEM		$16.24	Oct-12
Cam Seal			R	Subaru OEM		$16.04	Oct-12
Crank Seal			R	Subaru OEM		$8.57	Oct-12
Thermostat			R	Subaru OEM		$22.65	Oct-12
Thermostat Gasket		R	Subaru OEM		$3.43	Oct-12
Head Bolt (SOHC)		R	Subaru OEM		$70.20	Oct-12
Valve Cover Seal Washer		R	Subaru OEM		$35.70	Oct-12
Timing Belt Idler		R	Subaru OEM		$49.95	Oct-12
Timing Belt Double Idler	R	Subaru OEM		$86.73	Oct-12
Timing Belt Tensioner		R	Subaru OEM		$149.95	Oct-12
Timing Belt Idler		R	Subaru OEM		$74.95	Oct-12
Coolant				R	Subaru OEM		$23.77	Oct-12
O-Ring Oil Pump			R	Subaru OEM		$3.23	Oct-12
Engine Degreaser		R	Subaru OEM		$14.47	Oct-12
Oil Fillter Tube O-Ring		R	Subaru OEM		$3.58	Oct-12
Water Pump Hose			R	Subaru OEM		$14.20	Oct-12
Water Pump Gasket		R	Subaru OEM		$4.20	Oct-12
Oil Filter			R	Subaru OEM		$6.59	Oct-12
O-Ring Coolant Crossover	R	Subaru OEM		$8.34	Oct-12
Timing Belt			R	Subaru OEM		$89.95	Oct-12
Subaru Synthetic 5W-30		R	Subaru OEM		$29.95	Oct-12
Water Pump			R	Subaru OEM		$139.95	Oct-12
Radiator Hose Upper		R	Subaru OEM		$16.00	Oct-12
Radiator Hose Lower		R	Subaru OEM		$17.50	Oct-12
Hose Clamp			R	Subaru OEM		$7.60	Oct-12
Clutch Kit			R	Subaru OEM 		$392.60	Oct-12
Valve Cover Gasket		R	Subaru OEM		$29.90	Oct-12
Spark Plug Seal			R	Subaru OEM		$17.48	Oct-12
O-Ring				R	Subaru OEM		$1.96	Oct-12
Spark Plugs			R	Bosch Fusion IR		$20.00	Oct-12
				
		Parts	$1,541.42	
		Labor 	$1,246.00	
		Discount	-$125.00	
		Shop Supplies	$10.00	
		Sales Tax on Parts	$102.39	
		Total	$2,774.81
For reference I run this spark plug http://www.boschautoparts.com/sparkp...mirfusion.aspx

Some of the above are multiples, for example there are 2 Head Gaskets. However, for simplification, the total cost is simply what both cost added together. Before someone flames the part prices, yes they're higher than rockauto or subarugenuineparts, but the labor cost is very low considering all the work that was done and it more than makes up for it in total cost. I'm still pleased with the work done and I hope anyone out there that needs head gaskets replaced in the southeast uses this shop - they're worth the drive.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:04 PM   #518
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Looks like a good deal to me.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:59 AM   #519
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I was in today for an oil change and was told that my HG's need to be changed sooner rather than later. *sigh* They said they are both leaking bad and that my crossmember is covered with oil as well they mentioned some sort of pan under there that was full of oil. I'm currently at 127,000 km (79,000) miles so still very early for the timing belt since that's not due for another 40,000 km, another year or more. When I was at 117,000 they noticed it so in the last 10,000km it went from starting to leak to leaking bad and all over everything. Guess I'll try to get in next week to get it fixed.

I had asked them about using the WRX steel gaskets (I think that's what people on here recommend) and he told me I should stick what was meant for my car.

The dealer is quoting me an estimate of $1840 taxes in. Other than the timing belt, since I'm way too early for that, is there anything else I should have them address while they have things apart? Do they have to do new o-rings around the spark plugs because I currently have oil in there? Anything else? I'm going to see if they'll throw in a new PCV free of charge since it only costs a few dollars.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:42 AM   #520
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You are close enough to 105K it may save you to do timing belts while the engine is out. If you have any clutch problems, now is the time too. Also, the dealer can only warrant replacing the stock headgaskets with more stock headgaskets. If you want better/newer or non-OEM gaskets you will have far better luck with an independent shop.

In the US, a full Timing Belt service including Water Pump and all idlers/tensioner + coolant flush, thermostat, and seals, is around $950. What part of Canada are you in?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:36 PM   #521
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They'll have to replace the spark plug hole gaskets anyway, so you don't really need to ask them.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:54 PM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
You are close enough to 105K it may save you to do timing belts while the engine is out. If you have any clutch problems, now is the time too. Also, the dealer can only warrant replacing the stock headgaskets with more stock headgaskets. If you want better/newer or non-OEM gaskets you will have far better luck with an independent shop.

In the US, a full Timing Belt service including Water Pump and all idlers/tensioner + coolant flush, thermostat, and seals, is around $950. What part of Canada are you in?
Thanks for the reply. I'm in Nova Scotia. I have an appointment for Tuesday and will get the timing belt done at the same time so I only have to pay the labour once. They'll inspect the pulleys and tensioners while they're working on it. They told me the belt and a few misc parts will run in the $150 range. If the pulleys or tensioners are bad that price will go up. I'm hoping they're okay because this repair job is already going to be pushing into the $2000 range, WAY more than I can afford to spend right now, but it has to be done.
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #523
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Just have them replace the pullies and tensioners. The potential cost of those going bad later is waaaaaaaay higher than replacing them now.
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:02 PM   #524
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I agree with Counterfit, the pulleys are inexpensive to do now. The risk you take NOT replacing them is one could/will go, destroy the belt, and you will have to do a lot more work on the interference engine to get it running again (full valve job, possibly piston replacement)
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:28 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Counterfit View Post
Just have them replace the pullies and tensioners. The potential cost of those going bad later is waaaaaaaay higher than replacing them now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedoc Orlando View Post
I agree with Counterfit, the pulleys are inexpensive to do now. The risk you take NOT replacing them is one could/will go, destroy the belt, and you will have to do a lot more work on the interference engine to get it running again (full valve job, possibly piston replacement)
What they said.
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