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Old 12-31-2008, 12:59 AM   #1
CAPTIN INFERNO
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Smile I need your opinion on this; weight distribution vs. power?

This is a discution in our swic; weight distribution vs. power? any thoughts on this comment. Any input would be great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostInc View Post
Sorry to chime in so late late boys, but WgnWheel you are a clown. Most of what your sayin is hypocritical. You say bigger breaks thats more weight, sway/strut bars more weight, and you own a wagon, once again more weight and dont tell me its for better weight distrubution, cuz i understand, but its more weight period which goes against everything your sayin. And why does weight matter if you have the power to compensate, you can have any power to weight ratio you want to with any power an any weight. You also need to think about when the car squats under acceleration, under Gs, there is more weight in the rear then you think. Weight transfer and torque. There is more load on the rear wheels under acceleration then the weighted front. This is where physics get involved.
And as far corner weighting, you should be able to stiffin the front or any corner you want for any track set up.
And when it comes to building cars, you have a big GoodSpeed sticker on your cars, so im just guessin THEY built your car, not YOU!
And last the driver is the most important factor when on the track. And dont tell me thats not true. Just look at F1, their rules make it so every car is almost identical. Iv seen mike shumacheur lead half a race, blow a tire, go to dead last then work his way up to second in 20 somethin laps. Now you think that Mike or ferrari? I will bet you that Ken block will eat you in your car while him in a stock STI, on any day on any track.
Honestly i dont care what you think of the Fat kit, track or not, its functional. Especially with the 40R on it. You think a little 2.5 can spool that up quickly, ha, like you said with N2o but i dont think ive ever seen anyone use that on a time attack car. You spray your N2o and when you throw a rod, be sure to listin to the whine of our blower as we pass you on the side of the track.
Line em up!
That is my opinion.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:31 AM   #2
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Not sure I understand the question and the quoted text seems like confused ramblings... however, I'm pretty sure most racers would rather have 10% less weight than 10% more power. Sure you can keep adding power to a heavy car, but that doesn't help braking or handling.
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:18 AM   #3
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Just saw this thread lol...

Heres the start of the discussion:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1665990

In a nut shell, the op and his friends feel adding weight to a track car is no big deal if you add more power. I'm making the argument that weight is the enemy on braking, handling, tires etc. and you don't need to keep adding power, if you shed weight and have a well balanced chassis.

It all started around the compound s/c, turbo setup and my stating that adding a 30lb s/c over the front right wheel of a front heavy subaru, would have some affect on the cars abilities in a track environment and probably isn't an ideal road-race setup.

And for what it's worth, I'm the only one in the discussion that actually competes in time trials and time attack, local track days.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:39 AM   #4
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Your wagon?



Here's mine...

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Old 12-31-2008, 09:41 AM   #5
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Raj (RE92) and I did a little lead/follow exercise at NHIS a couple years ago. Me leading in my 1600 pound, 90hp CRX racecar, him in his STi. Both ran track tires. I would lose him in the oval and through most turns.

Weight loss > weight distribution.

jack
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:30 AM   #6
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While more power can help acceleration recover from additional weight for a break-even, handling and braking will still suffer from the additional weight and power won't help recover those losses. On the other hand, having more weight and better weight distribution will do nothing to offset the acceleration hit, but will recover some of the handling and maybe braking losses from the additional weight. To say which variables are most valuable, you'd have to know the type of motorsports. I do autocross and so I rank weight distribution pretty highly and overall power/weight not as much. If I were circle track racing, I'd do all I could to boost power and reduce weight, because lap times there are most definitely a function of straight line speed.

Disclaimer, I drive a wagon. In my case, the Impreza is a very nose-heavy car, to the point that really can hurt its handling, with the whole engine in front of the front axles. Also, the Impreza wagons (at least the GC/GF generation, though I assume it hasn't changed too much) were not tremendously heavier than the coupes or sedans. Weight distribution versus overall weight is a tradeoff like any modification to a car. In my case, I'm glad to say I have a 55/45 weight distribution and should be moving that even further back this coming season, while hopefully losing some more weight as well (roll bar may prevent that). I admit that I'll never get quite down to the weight of the coupes in my class, but I think I can get within 50lbs and I think my better weight distribution can make up for that deficit.

Oh yeah, and BoostInc sounds like an idiot. He may well know what he's talking about, but out of context, it's a rant and it's difficult to gauge.
-N
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:08 PM   #7
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boostinc must race on a track where there is minimal braking and turning.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
Your wagon?



Here's mine...


yes, thats my wagon! nice wagon you have there.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:52 PM   #9
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Why is no one arguing for more weight with no power adds?
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPME View Post
Why is no one arguing for more weight with no power adds?
Give it time Marshall. In a thread like this, every single answer will be given. Hence the awesomeness of Motorsports.

I vote that anything over 850 pounds with fuel makes you ghey.

Chris H.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken View Post
Give it time Marshall. In a thread like this, every single answer will be given. Hence the awesomeness of Motorsports.

I vote that anything over 850 pounds with fuel makes you ghey.

Chris H.
I know Max is totally ghey for you Chrissy, me...just a little.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Iv seen mike shumacheur lead half a race, blow a tire, go to dead last then work his way up to second in 20 somethin laps.
WTF race was that? He spun on the first lap of he 04 Italian GP, dropped to last, and then finished 2nd after passing nearly everyone (except Rubens), and the 06 Brazilian GP he got a flat on lap 11, and finished 4th. I can't think of any other GPs that he pwned the field in...
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:03 PM   #13
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To expand a bit on part of what NeilShelly was saying, the answer is it depends. Yes, in most situations less weight would yield the overall best lap time... But depending on the track and racing situation, more power could win. I'm sure that we've all seen situations where a car with a power advantage gaps the better handling/braking car on the straights, and blocks well enough to keep him behind in the twisty bits. If the "faster" car gets by the slower but more powerful car, he will then leave him behind.

George M
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conevadr View Post
Yes, in most situations less weight would yield the overall best lap time... But depending on the track and racing situation, more power could win.

George M
I know a racing situation where anding more weight and more power nets more wins, a TRACTOR pull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conevadr View Post
To expand a bit on part of what NeilShelly was saying, the answer is it depends. Yes, in most situations less weight would yield the overall best lap time... But depending on the track and racing situation, more power could win. I'm sure that we've all seen situations where a car with a power advantage gaps the better handling/braking car on the straights, and blocks well enough to keep him behind in the twisty bits. If the "faster" car gets by the slower but more powerful car, he will then leave him behind.

George M

A perfect example of that, is the Speed GT Championship. The lighter and better handling Porsche, against the bigger and heavier (more HP) American V8's. In 2008 Randy Pobst in his Porsche, only won 3 races out of 9. But he won the championship, and the lighter and better handling Porsche won the manufacturer points. At the smaller tighter tracks: the Porsche, and the biggerr faster tracks: the big American V8's.

One example; This is at Utah
Fn Driver Car/Sponsor , Gap , Fst Time , Fst Spd
1 Tommy Archer/Dodge Viper -0.000 , 1:57.813 , 93.137
2 Brandon Davis/Ford Mustang -1.148 , 1:58.277 , 92.772
3 Andy Pilgrim/Cadillac CTS-V -2.227 , 1:58.074 , 92.931
4 Randy Pobst/Porsche 911 GT3 -4.375 , 1:58.258 , 92.787


Manufacturer Points
Porsche 64
Ford 50
Cadillac 49
Dodge 40
Chevrolet 24
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Old 01-01-2009, 02:10 PM   #15
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just play forza2 online...
it explains everything haha
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Old 01-01-2009, 02:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPTIN INFERNO View Post
I know a racing situation where anding more weight and more power nets more wins, a TRACTOR pull.




A perfect example of that, is the Speed GT Championship. The lighter and better handling Porsche, against the bigger and heavier (more HP) American V8's. In 2008 Randy Pobst in his Porsche, only won 3 races out of 9. But he won the championship, and the lighter and better handling Porsche won the manufacturer points. At the smaller tighter tracks: the Porsche, and the biggerr faster tracks: the big American V8's.

One example; This is at Utah
Fn Driver Car/Sponsor , Gap , Fst Time , Fst Spd
1 Tommy Archer/Dodge Viper -0.000 , 1:57.813 , 93.137
2 Brandon Davis/Ford Mustang -1.148 , 1:58.277 , 92.772
3 Andy Pilgrim/Cadillac CTS-V -2.227 , 1:58.074 , 92.931
4 Randy Pobst/Porsche 911 GT3 -4.375 , 1:58.258 , 92.787


Manufacturer Points
Porsche 64
Ford 50
Cadillac 49
Dodge 40
Chevrolet 24
Or, the best driver and the best team won the championship. That could have an influencing effect on things, I'm guessing.
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Old 01-01-2009, 03:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPME View Post
Or, the best driver and the best team won the championship. That could have an influencing effect on things, I'm guessing.
True, true
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPTIN INFERNO View Post
any thoughts on this comment. Any input would be great.
I have input. Speak English!

Quote:
Sorry to chime in so late late boys, but WgnWheel you are a clown. Most of what your sayin is hypocritical. You say bigger breaks thats more weight, sway/strut bars more weight, and you own a wagon, once again more weight and dont tell me its for better weight distrubution, cuz i understand, but its more weight period which goes against everything your sayin. And why does weight matter if you have the power to compensate, you can have any power to weight ratio you want to with any power an any weight. You also need to think about when the car squats under acceleration, under Gs, there is more weight in the rear then you think. Weight transfer and torque. There is more load on the rear wheels under acceleration then the weighted front. This is where physics get involved.
And as far corner weighting, you should be able to stiffin the front or any corner you want for any track set up.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conevadr View Post
To expand a bit on part of what NeilShelly was saying, the answer is it depends. Yes, in most situations less weight would yield the overall best lap time... But depending on the track and racing situation, more power could win. I'm sure that we've all seen situations where a car with a power advantage gaps the better handling/braking car on the straights, and blocks well enough to keep him behind in the twisty bits. If the "faster" car gets by the slower but more powerful car, he will then leave him behind.

George M
Yea it def depends n the situation/
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:52 PM   #20
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Not even sure its even in question, less weight,less stress on the entire car, adding power just makes it more complex, now your trying to get the power to the ground. Anytime adding power means adding weight no way, directional changes start to suffer etc.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WgnWheel View Post
yes, thats my wagon! nice wagon you have there.
Thanks. I dig my racin' wagon.

BTW, you did lighten your race car to the practical limits of your competition rules and your budget, right? I mean, aside from my beer gut, I can't see any practical purpose in lugging around dead weight. I'm just sayin'.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx wagone View Post
Thanks. I dig my racin' wagon.

BTW, you did lighten your race car to the practical limits of your competition rules and your budget, right? I mean, aside from my beer gut, I can't see any practical purpose in lugging around dead weight. I'm just sayin'.
Me? yeah, I'm always looking to shed weight. Im at 2850 right now. That was my argument with them, they were for adding weight, i am not.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by WgnWheel View Post
Me? yeah, I'm always looking to shed weight. Im at 2850 right now. That was my argument with them, they were for adding weight, i am not.
Including cage?! How did you do that?

Tell me please......
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by lemon19mmm View Post
Including cage?! How did you do that?

Tell me please......
No cage in it yet! But i have the full interior up front(dash, all door panels, carpet, sound deadening). Plenty of places to shed a few lbs still.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WgnWheel View Post
No cage in it yet! But i have the full interior up front(dash, all door panels, carpet, sound deadening). Plenty of places to shed a few lbs still.

Let me know when you want some help with that. I might need your help when I start mine.
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