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Old 01-03-2009, 06:53 PM   #1
JackHammer
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Default Performance Friction vs. Carbotech vs. Ferodo Track Pads

Motorsports Guys,

Car: 05 STi
Stock Brembo's
MANY suspension mods
Not stock on power. 30r kit
Performance Friction 2 piece front rotors, stoptech rears


I know there isn't a "best" pad. But I'm stuck as to which pad to try next. I have Ferodo 2500's but I'm looking at a pad for several HPDE's. I'm not concerned about noise.
Requirements: Doesn't eat rotors like the cookie monster eats cookies!

Here's 3 popular choices I've narrowed it too:

Carbotech XP10 F/R (or xp8 rear):

The Panther XP10 is a step up from the XP8 race compound friction material. It is not recommended for use on the street. This pad will withstand prolonged use on the race track without fading. The Mu is a lofty 0.63-0.65 and the temp range is from 250 all the way up to a scorching 1700F.
Price: $~325

Ferodo DS3000 F/R (or use 2500 rear):
Ferodo has set the standard across circuit racing and the World Rally Championship. DS3000 has contributed to countless wins and podium positions in the WRC, BTCC, STW and is now experiencing major success in Indycar and NASCAR applications. Reduced bedding in time, extremely high friction level (0.62 coefficient of friction) at any temperature or speed, higher initial bite, predictability, in all conditions, when braking into the corner because of the flat friction curve, and less off brake between the brake pedal and throttle.
Price: $~390

Performance Friction PFC01 F/R. (or PFC97 rear):
Main features of the 01 compound include increased initial bite and improved modulation. The friction level has been increased for the first period of the braking event, allowing the driver to attack the brake pedal later thereby reducing the time spent on the brakes. Flatter torque curve than the 83 or 93 Compounds. Excellent modulation characteristics that improve controllability and driver confidence. Unique lubrication package that maintains a minimal transfer layer on the disc to help prevent brake shudder and provide excellent release properties, therefore reducing overall drag in the brake system. Effective from 67F to 2000F. Optimum range is between 860F and 1004F. Price:~$450

I would really like to know the coefficient of friction for the PFC-01's?



Will any of these "stain" my wheels?
I believe these are all in the same category as the Pagid Yellows? (seem Pagid is nice, just more expensive like the PFC's. Are they worth the price?)
Would you use a different pad in the rear than the front?

-Which is "easy" on the rotors? (all relative I guess).


Any insight to the questions I have asked would be great. Would love to hear your motosport opinions also.









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Old 01-04-2009, 03:53 AM   #2
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I went from DS2500's to PFC-01's at all 4 corners and the PFC-01's are amazing. The bite it crazy and they resist fade for such a long time. They are kind to rotors too and they last a long time. I now use the DS2500's for daily pads and PFC-01's for track pads.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:51 AM   #3
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subscribed.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by import111 View Post
I went from DS2500's to PFC-01's at all 4 corners and the PFC-01's are amazing. The bite it crazy and they resist fade for such a long time. They are kind to rotors too and they last a long time. I now use the DS2500's for daily pads and PFC-01's for track pads.
I too have ferodo 2500's and was contemplating the exact combo that you have.

Although, It would make sense to me to go with the DS3000's since I have the 2500's now. :shrug:

Subscribed for more input on pads.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:15 AM   #5
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FYI:

DS3000 Plus +03 (Race Use Only)


DS3000 Plus was developed by FERODO for extreme braking conditions. An exceptionally high coefficient of friction (0.68) is achieved while maintaining the same flat as DS3000. The pad life is increased by 15 to 20% in most applications. "Plus" material has an extremely high initial bite yet is consistent in providing the exceptional properties of DS3000. This material is used in SuperTurismo, Nascar, Champ Car, Indy Light, Formula Nippon, Formula 3000, DTC and many other international Series.
Reduced bedding-in time (equal to DS3000)
Extremely high friction level (0.68 coefficient of friction) at any temperature or speed.
Higher initial bite
Predictability, in all conditions, when braking into the corner because of the flat friction curve
Less off-brake between the brake pedal and throttle
Less residual torque





So many options I'm loosing my mind!




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Old 01-04-2009, 12:35 PM   #6
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First realize that with enough tire/power and speed - you are going to pretty much overwhelm the stock brakes - and the pads and rotors generally wear fast. If you can - sell the Brembo's while they are gold and use that money towards a BBK.

What tires are you on?


XP-10's aren't really in the same class as DS3000's or PFC-01's.

It's more like this

XP-10/Hawk HT-10 - medium race pads - I suggest them for street tires/novice STi drivers. EBC yellow/pagid yellow and some other compounds live here.

DS3000/PFC01 - more aggresive for sure - generally for the R-comp crowd or once you get into longer/faster or harder on brakes tracks. More experienced drivers etc. DTC70/XP12 and 16, Raybestos ST-41/2/3 and some others live here.



Rotor wear

On track you are not concerned w/ 'eating rotors'. Wearing to minimum thickness is not what is going to happen - you will either crack them or groove them to death and that is more related to how fast you are rather than what pad you use.

They crack at a rate determined by your driving. Add 'x' heat cycles to 'x' temperature and the iron starts w/heat checking that eventually turns into fissures and eventually the rotor is cracked too much to be safe.

The other way would be from overheated pads. Once overheated the materials fluff off and break down and this debris at the interface is hard and grooves the rotors - sometimes deeply.

Pick your pad category first - then choose a brand.

I wouldn't ignore Hawk, Raybestos or Pagid either. Pagid Yellows for example have a modest friction and temperature liimit - but if you don't exceed that too much they last a LONG time.

Last edited by KNS Brakes; 01-04-2009 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBrakes View Post
If you can - sell the Brembo's while they are gold and use that money towards a BBK.

What tires are you on?

I wouldn't ignore Hawk, Raybestos or Pagid either. Pagid Yellows for example have a modest friction and temperature liimit - but if you don't exceed that too much they last a LONG time.
Interesting statement. I would be interested in a BBK if those Brembo's werent $3500

Tires are 255/35 Dunlop Star Specs.

I haven't ruled Pagid yellow's out, but goodness they are expensive compared to say, the Ferodo's.

Maybe we could talk via PM about pads?
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:29 PM   #8
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I've ran all of them.

How aggresive are you on the brakes?

Do you intend to keep running the Dunlop Star Specs?

How much noise are you willing to deal with?

When I say how aggresive are you be realalistic, do you brake late and hard for a short period or due you tend to brake early and drag the brakes?

I'm very aggresive on the brakes, I brake very late and very hard. I use the brakes to rotate the car a lot.

I prefer the way the Carbotechs feel, but I run the XP12s and 10s, I run Neovas for tires and I suspect that they provide a little higher grip level than the dunlops.

Feel free to ask me specific questions about each brand of pad and Ill see if I can answer them for you.

Matt
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:55 PM   #9
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In my opinion a BBK is wayyyy overkill on any street tire. BBK should only come into play for R-comp tire use. I feel this way because on stock rotors/calipers and either DS2500's or PFC-01 pads, I can chirp my tires (255/40/17 Z1 Star Specs) getting on the brakes.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by import111 View Post
In my opinion a BBK is wayyyy overkill on any street tire. BBK should only come into play for R-comp tire use. I feel this way because on stock rotors/calipers and either DS2500's or PFC-01 pads, I can chirp my tires (255/40/17 Z1 Star Specs) getting on the brakes.
BBK's for track use aren't just about pedal ratio. The additional leverage at the caliper allows the brakes to run cooler. This gives you a wider range of pad options, less need to run the most aggressive, more difficult to modulate compounds. It's all a matter of car weight, grip, and power. The more power, more weight, and more grip you have, the more heat you put into the brakes. A 400 whp, 3300 lb subaru, even on star specs/advans, is going to generate a lot of heat. I'm near the limit of EBC yellows at 270 whp and star specs and expect to need a BBK for serious track time when I'm at 450 whp. Compared to the Brembo aftermarket kits, the stoptech 4-piston/ 355mm kit gives you the leverage for under $2300.

btw, I would try the new Ferodo DTC-70's that WRXBrakes mentioned over a set of DS3000's. Basically the same money and the siloxane pads (like the EBC yellow's) are supposed to be kinder to rotors with less aggressive dust. I run EBC yellow's for DD pads for this reason.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by import111 View Post
In my opinion a BBK is wayyyy overkill on any street tire. BBK should only come into play for R-comp tire use. I feel this way because on stock rotors/calipers and either DS2500's or PFC-01 pads, I can chirp my tires (255/40/17 Z1 Star Specs) getting on the brakes.
Have you ever been down the back straight at road atlanta at 150 plus mph and hit the brakes for 10a...the stock braking system isn't enough, its really not enough for one lap, but the 3rd or 4th lap there is nothing left.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:37 PM   #12
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I've run stock Brembos with PFC 2-pc rotors and PFC01 pads. Guess what? My brakes have worked fine for 2+ years. Given, I'm not running a huge amount of power (~300WHP), but I am hard on the brakes. I also have the dust shields removed, and run titanium backing plates. So I don't think you need a BBK if you have a good pad and take some steps to help reduce heat. I'd recommend running the same compound on all 4 corners. Keeps the balance and if you can get the rear's to do a little more work, it's a good thing, and it helps rotate the car during trail braking. I will be adding some extra ducting to the rotors this year, but that's mostly in an effort to increase pad life. I love the feel of the PFC01's, but they only last about 2 weekends for me. I've run the Pagid Yellows. They broke into pieces after one day. They might be OK for a novice on street tires, but anything more and they can't handle it.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S L O W W R X View Post

I'm very aggresive on the brakes, I brake very late and very hard. I use the brakes to rotate the car a lot.

I prefer the way the Carbotechs feel, but I run the XP12s and 10s, I run Neovas for tires and I suspect that they provide a little higher grip level than the dunlops.

Matt
I haven't run all of them, but I love the XP8 and XP10s, also on AD07 Neova tires. The Carbotech pads are nicely progressive and seem to last decently long, however my Main issue is cooling...

On the track I frequent the XP8s are sufficient, but the lack of cool air getting to the brakes, coupled with the weight of our cars and how heavily front biased our cars brake means very high temps on the rotors and calipers, which from what I understand, means higher/faster wear on those parts.

in short, whichever pad you go with, I think it'd be a good thing to think about brake cooling as an alternate and possibly more effective way to ensure more longevity out of the brakes as a whole.

here's a thread I have going on over on IWSTI about it

Last edited by scottjua; 01-04-2009 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:26 AM   #14
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I haven't run the alternatives, so I can't weigh in on those, but I have tried a couple of the Carbotech offerings now. Honestly, I've never tried a brake pad I like as much as the Carbotech lineup. The modulation is just awesome. To me, that's enough to make them the only choice. Just pick the pad from their line that has the temperature characteristics you need. Another nice thing about the CT line is the ability to switch from a street pad to a race pad without having to re-bed. They also are easier on brakes and lighter dusting, for the little that means with brakes that are used hard.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S L O W W R X View Post
I've ran all of them.

How aggresive are you on the brakes?

Do you intend to keep running the Dunlop Star Specs?

How much noise are you willing to deal with?

When I say how aggresive are you be realalistic, do you brake late and hard for a short period or due you tend to brake early and drag the brakes?

I'm very aggresive on the brakes, I brake very late and very hard. I use the brakes to rotate the car a lot.

I prefer the way the Carbotechs feel, but I run the XP12s and 10s, I run Neovas for tires and I suspect that they provide a little higher grip level than the dunlops.

Feel free to ask me specific questions about each brand of pad and Ill see if I can answer them for you.

Matt
Matt,

Thanks for your insight!

As a Novice, I believe I am easier on the brakes than some. I imagine with the track time this year that I have planned, I will get much more aggressive as I try to learn the car more and hone my skills farther. I have brake ducting also.

Noise is not an issue with me. In fact, I think it's secks on wheels!

I do plan on running the star specs for awhile, I really enjoy this tire compared to my re01r's.

What IS an issue for me is the cost vs. pad life vs. rotor life. I believe this is an issue for most people. The bottom line is that I'm not looking for a "best" pad, but I am looking for a pad that's a "bang for the buck" type of deal.

The problem is that one person has great luck with XX brand, and another crumbles the same pad away in 2 track days. This is where it just comes down to me trying different pad types to see what I like best.

I am leaning towards the PFC-01's. Then the Carbotechs. Then the Ferodo's (only cause I have the 2500's now.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
BBK's for track use aren't just about pedal ratio. The additional leverage at the caliper allows the brakes to run cooler. This gives you a wider range of pad options, less need to run the most aggressive, more difficult to modulate compounds. It's all a matter of car weight, grip, and power. The more power, more weight, and more grip you have, the more heat you put into the brakes. A 400 whp, 3300 lb subaru, even on star specs/advans, is going to generate a lot of heat. I'm near the limit of EBC yellows at 270 whp and star specs and expect to need a BBK for serious track time when I'm at 450 whp. Compared to the Brembo aftermarket kits, the stoptech 4-piston/ 355mm kit gives you the leverage for under $2300.

btw, I would try the new Ferodo DTC-70's that WRXBrakes mentioned over a set of DS3000's. Basically the same money and the siloxane pads (like the EBC yellow's) are supposed to be kinder to rotors with less aggressive dust. I run EBC yellow's for DD pads for this reason.

Frank
Frank,

thanks for your input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mav1c View Post
I've run stock Brembos with PFC 2-pc rotors and PFC01 pads. Guess what? My brakes have worked fine for 2+ years. Given, I'm not running a huge amount of power (~300WHP), but I am hard on the brakes. I also have the dust shields removed, and run titanium backing plates. So I don't think you need a BBK if you have a good pad and take some steps to help reduce heat. I'd recommend running the same compound on all 4 corners. Keeps the balance and if you can get the rear's to do a little more work, it's a good thing, and it helps rotate the car during trail braking. I will be adding some extra ducting to the rotors this year, but that's mostly in an effort to increase pad life. I love the feel of the PFC01's, but they only last about 2 weekends for me. I've run the Pagid Yellows. They broke into pieces after one day. They might be OK for a novice on street tires, but anything more and they can't handle it.
We're in the same boat only I have a little more power than you.

How are the rotors holding up to your pads? BTW, they don't give those rotor blanks away do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjua View Post
in short, whichever pad you go with, I think it'd be a good thing to think about brake cooling as an alternate and possibly more effective way to ensure more longevity out of the brakes as a whole.

here's a thread I have going on over on IWSTI about it
Thanks for the link.

I also have brake ducting so we'll see how this goes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
I haven't run the alternatives, so I can't weigh in on those, but I have tried a couple of the Carbotech offerings now. Honestly, I've never tried a brake pad I like as much as the Carbotech lineup. The modulation is just awesome. To me, that's enough to make them the only choice. Just pick the pad from their line that has the temperature characteristics you need. Another nice thing about the CT line is the ability to switch from a street pad to a race pad without having to re-bed. They also are easier on brakes and lighter dusting, for the little that means with brakes that are used hard.
One reason I wanted the Ferodo's is because I have the 2500's now. I would "think" it would be easier to bed back in vs. doing PFC-01's for the track and Ferodo 2500's for the Daily.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:59 AM   #16
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i have to agree with williaty, i love carbotech pads for the same reasons. xp12/xp10 is a great combo and i used to run this on my legacy gt. for the sti, i actually just bought ferodo ds2500 rears and mintex xtreme fronts. i'm interested to see your results because i've never run any other dedicated track pad other than carbotech and i loved it.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:44 PM   #17
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I think I'd be leaning towards the XP10's. The 12's were way too aggressive for a non-race application imho. Really tough on rotors. (I'd rather crack before groove). They are a healthy step up from the 8's without any hugely noticeable drawbacks. Same thing can be said for Pagid yellows.

The 01's had more bites, and felt like a little more aggressive pad, but not worlds different than the 10's. I wouldn't consider the 01's in a full-race, r comp only relm...they are fairly easy on rotors even under mild use.

But, for the $$$, I'd stick to Carbotechs.
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:38 AM   #18
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FYI, I'm selling a set of used Carbotech XP9's with a lot of life left in them. PM me if you're interested
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:58 AM   #19
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I would stay away from the 12s unless you become really aggresive on the brakes, they do tend to eat rotors expecially on a stock setup. I didn't care for the PF01s the bite was nice but they seem like they let go more after the inital bite than the xp12s do.

I run the 12s on street tires and the 16s on Rcomps, the 16s will try and kill though.

Matt
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:03 PM   #20
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The best pad I've used in terms of bite and relatively low rotor wear is the PFC01. This is a great pad for r-comps, although it may be a bit difficult to modulate on street tires because of the high initial bite. I stopped using them because they generate a lot of heat, which puts stress on everything around them. Even with brake ducts I was cracking rotors and boiling RBF600 on a regular basis.

I switched to a Stoptech 6-piston kit and used the new Pagid RS5 Blue compound last season and they were good pads but wore quickly and didn't have as much bite as I'd like. So now I'm sort of back to the drawing board for next season. Leaning heavily toward Hawk DTC-70's but Carbotechs aren't out of the question.
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