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Old 04-03-2002, 07:09 PM   #1
snookem
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Default Why use STI injectors for vf23,24,28,29

Ok guys lets open up a can of worms.

I have been on the phone to Australia and elsewhere and each of these tuners have said that they can't understand why US is using STI injectors for a vf23,24,28,29.

This is the tuners and what they said.

Rigoli Performance-Dominic (Australia)-vf23, uses up the fuel, its got plenty to run safe on stock injectors. Also here's an article on vf22(same)
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0902/page1.html

Carb & jet- Kelvin(Australia)-vf29 ok with stock injectors
http://www.4wddyno.com/products.htm

MRT Performance-Shane (Australia).VF24,28,29 can't understand why US is wanting STI injectors for these turbos.

Lachute subaru-Ben (Canada)They have been one of the top rally teams in Canada and are a Subaru dealer. Suggested vf24 for road with stock injectors good for 320hp and vf28 29.
http://www.lac-ss.com/

Also cobb uses vf29 with stock injectors in its R/T kit.320hp

Also all of these said you don't need to up the fuel pump.

My knowledge of these cars are that the gearbox goes bye bye at over 320 crank hp and all above agree so what I want is close to 320hp with good spoolup and the vf24 will do that at 16 psi with unichip. So why spend, as I live in Canada $1600can extra for injectors and pump when most of the LONG TERM tuners with racing teams recommend that STI injectors and fuel pump are not required.

There is also a number of people on i-club running vf22, 23 on stock ecu without problems????

So if these guys have been tuning and racing these cars for a number of years. Why would I not believe them?????
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:21 PM   #2
WRBLUEWAGON
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OOOOH, that is a can of warms. I hope GiftsWrx does not see this.

We here in America, (at least most of use) will run a $hit load more boost then the Aussies and uk guys. That is the main reason why. Plus when you can flow 20 psi at red line even low inpedance injectors 550cc are in there 91% static even with a 14:1 A/f.

And dude run a FV22 or anything else on you stock fuel system and get one little boost spick like 20psi because your MBC sliped off your turbo and then you will support the idea of running bigger injectors with a upgraded turbo.

One thing you should not go cheap on is your fuel system, I would not think of Running a large turbo with out injectors upgrade and a fuel pump.

The main reason of adding a bigger turbo is to run more boost at higher RPM at a colder temp witch our stock fuel system can not support.

There are a few turners here that can max out the fuel system with out little stocker.

Flame suit on
Eric

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Old 04-03-2002, 07:32 PM   #3
jmott
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Default Re: Why use STI injectors for vf23,24,28,29

just to be extra safe.
and leave room to grow


Quote:
Originally posted by snookem
Ok guys lets open up a can of worms.

I have been on the phone to Australia and elsewhere and each of these tuners have said that they can't understand why US is using STI injectors for a vf23,24,28,29.

This is the tuners and what they said.

Rigoli Performance-Dominic (Australia)-vf23, uses up the fuel, its got plenty to run safe on stock injectors. Also here's an article on vf22(same)
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0902/page1.html

Carb & jet- Kelvin(Australia)-vf29 ok with stock injectors
http://www.4wddyno.com/products.htm

MRT Performance-Shane (Australia).VF24,28,29 can't understand why US is wanting STI injectors for these turbos.

Lachute subaru-Ben (Canada)They have been one of the top rally teams in Canada and are a Subaru dealer. Suggested vf24 for road with stock injectors good for 320hp and vf28 29.
http://www.lac-ss.com/

Also cobb uses vf29 with stock injectors in its R/T kit.320hp

Also all of these said you don't need to up the fuel pump.

My knowledge of these cars are that the gearbox goes bye bye at over 320 crank hp and all above agree so what I want is close to 320hp with good spoolup and the vf24 will do that at 16 psi with unichip. So why spend, as I live in Canada $1600can extra for injectors and pump when most of the LONG TERM tuners with racing teams recommend that STI injectors and fuel pump are not required.

There is also a number of people on i-club running vf22, 23 on stock ecu without problems????

So if these guys have been tuning and racing these cars for a number of years. Why would I not believe them?????
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:36 PM   #4
Mephisto318
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I posted a similar question about the FP turbo but didn't get many responses. I don't see what's wrong with running moderate boost levels on an upgraded turbo while still putting a safe demand on the stock fuel system. I agree, injectors and fuel pumps are a lot of additional cash if you only want 300-320hp crank. I think most tuners are looking to extract max potential from these turbos, and aren't as interested in running upgraded turbos at moderate-to-lower boost levels, but I'm very curious as to whether any of these turbos could produce a worthwhile upgrade in the 300-320hp range for reasonable $$$.
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:39 PM   #5
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There is "TUNING" and there is "TRYING NOT TO BLOW UP" strategies.

Using adequately sized injectors and properly tune the car is tuning.

Bumping your fuel pressure to the top for the sake of "not detonating" is simply covering your butt.

When injector goes pass 75-80% duty cycle, it is pretty much wide open and there is no "tuning". Basically you dump fuel. When and how much cannot be comtrolled with a small injector that reached its almost peak duty cycle.

Just depends what you want, I guess.

-Alex
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:47 PM   #6
SKC
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{We here in America, (at least most of use) will run a $hit load more boost then the Aussies and uk guys.}

Eric,

There is just something special in the air over there isn't there!

If you are running a "$hit load" more boost (is that metric by the way?!) than UK or OZ tuners are, then you are off the end of the boost map, and you are being governed by the law of diminishing returns.

The main diff in tuning philoshophy that I see btwn OZ and US is driven by the amount of 4wd dynos we have in Australia. I live in a city with a population of 1M, and have access to 5 or 6 4WD dynos. Almost all tuning is done on the rollers. Almost nobody uses a preconceived map other than as a base map to start from. On the rollers it is very obvious as you are increasing boost and adjusting the mixture when you get to the thermal limits of the turbo.

I ran a VF29 in a modified WRX at 18lbs boost for more than double the factory output at the wheels. I have never had a problem in 18 months with std injectors. The only fuel system mod I had the whole time was a high capacity Audi Motorsport fuel pump mounted in a block of fuel cell foam. At the time it was only controlled by a well mapped Unichip and EBC.

If you are running more boost than this then you will start going backwards. Find a dyno, and a compentent tuner. Big numbers aside, you will fatten out you power/torque delivery and attain a level of part throttle response that you won't belive until you drive it yourself. Or you could just crank up the boost, add big injectors and a static map and pray...........

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:52 PM   #7
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Don't forget we use a different (lower) fuel ocane level than found overseas.
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:54 PM   #8
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Subaru seemed to think it was necessary for their STI
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:55 PM   #9
SKC
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Chris W,

Fair call, that is something that I did not consider. Almost every WRX/STi here uses 98RON fuel.

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:59 PM   #10
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STI Versions 5/6/7(or is it 8 now?) have used the same injector sizing as the MY99/00,01,02 here. Maybe your 02 WRX were short changed in the injector department the way you were with the brakes?

What is your std injector size?

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:01 PM   #11
snookem
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OK, I thought altitude also could be a problem as well as the cold but Ben from Lachute montreal canada (very cold) says he see's no problems with vf24 on stock fuel(91/92 octane) at 16 psi and that turbo runs only to 17psi at 7000rpm me thinks.

Please remember I said 320hp (crank) max. I'm from Australia and I know some of these tuners and friends with WRX's. Everyone hots them up. They are all saying wait till these guys with the 340+hp have 30k miles on them. Trannies, clutches, engine internals bye bye.

Here's something to think about also.
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0213/page1.html
Page 2 is interesting?

I just want 15psi to 7000rpm.

STI injectors and 18+psi 340+hp just bye bye later.

Octane too. they use ron we use mon (correct me) but I think aussie 98octane is our 94octane.
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:02 PM   #12
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US 2002 WRX injectors are 440cc I believe.
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:03 PM   #13
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SKC
Interesting
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:16 PM   #14
nmyeti
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The US school of thought on the injector issue is perhaps the safe one. The bottom line is that fuel is not the best (i get 91 max) and we need a lot more of it to keep detonation at bay. Peronally i think that while i am impressed with the power some of the AUS tuners are pumping out, i don't understand why there are no WRX's in the 9s. The car is NOT that much different than the DSMs, and we have had those in the 9s for a long time. Heck there are DSMs that that trap in the high 150s. So while 143 from rigioli is nice, its not THAT impressive.

-Nathan

Last edited by nmyeti; 04-04-2002 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:26 PM   #15
SKC
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I have not tested the injectors myself, but I am told that they are 550cc.

Nathan - you will see some times in the 9s within the next month or so I am sure. C&V have a car that ran 10.5 on the very very first run, and with street tyres. I think the reason for the lack of sub 10 sec qtrs is due more to the generally lack on interest in qtr mile racing in the WRX community. The WRX is seen as a point to point / autocross / club racing car, not a drag car. After all, the 4wd system is really nothing more than a burden and power sap for drag racing. If you wanted a drag car, then there are a number of rwd Hi-Pot options available for less money. I know guys with cars that have cost in total half that of a std new WRX who run consistent tens.

Cheers,

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by SKC
I have not tested the injectors myself, but I am told that they are 550cc.

Nathan - you will see some times in the 9s within the next month or so I am sure. C&V have a car that ran 10.5 on the very very first run, and with street tyres. I think the reason for the lack of sub 10 sec qtrs is due more to the generally lack on interest in qtr mile racing in the WRX community. The WRX is seen as a point to point / autocross / club racing car, not a drag car. After all, the 4wd system is really nothing more than a burden and power sap for drag racing. If you wanted a drag car, then there are a number of rwd Hi-Pot options available for less money. I know guys with cars that have cost in total half that of a std new WRX who run consistent tens.

Cheers,

SKC
AMEN to that my brotha.
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:34 PM   #17
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I'm no expert, but I just had my STi injectors and Supra fuel pump (aloong with a Vishnu uppipe and fuel rails) installed at Cobb and dynoed. I saw it mainly as a reliability upgrade.

But we were able to tune a little more aggressively (18psi), and perhaps better, keep the boost a little higher in the rpms before tapering off.

This extra bit of tuning bought me an extra ~30 reliable hp.

FWIW, Padre
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:45 PM   #18
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SKC,

You're in Brissy. I know someone with a setup like that with the intials SK. Steven?
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:49 PM   #19
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Padre: What turbo are you running.. and what was the final #'s?
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:49 PM   #20
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Yup,

It is a small world! Better be careful what I say :-)

........and you are?

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by SKC


Nathan - you will see some times in the 9s within the next month or so I am sure. C&V have a car that ran 10.5 on the very very first run, and with street tyres. I think the reason for the lack of sub 10 sec qtrs is due more to the generally lack on interest in qtr mile racing in the WRX community. The WRX is seen as a point to point / autocross / club racing car, not a drag car. After all, the 4wd system is really nothing more than a burden and power sap for drag racing. If you wanted a drag car, then there are a number of rwd Hi-Pot options available for less money. I know guys with cars that have cost in total half that of a std new WRX who run consistent tens.

Cheers,

SKC
That may be true, and i have no doubts that if you want to go fast in drag racing, a WRX is NOT the platform to start with, but the fact that people are into drag racing, and have not yet hit 9s there after having the car for so long says something to me. I expect there will be US wrx's in the low 10s or high 9s soon... We as a culture are more obsessed with 1/4 mile times, and i think that will transfer into some very seriouslly fast WRXs very soon.

-Nathan
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:59 PM   #22
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it would be funny if the disagreement between upgraded injectors came down to the US market getting smaller ones to begin with
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Old 04-03-2002, 09:02 PM   #23
SKC
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[That may be true, and i have no doubts that if you want to go fast in drag racing, a WRX is NOT the platform to start with, but the fact that people are into drag racing, and have not yet hit 9s there after having the car for so long says something to me.]

Nathan,

What does it say to you? I don't follow. The reality is that it is a cutural thing and a function of economies of scale. The Japanese have been modifying WRXs for longer still, and they are not into the nines. The Japanese guys who are interested in qtr mile racing are into GTR/S and Supras, not EVOs and WRXs. Likewise here, guys into drag racing are into rotaries, V8 Holdens and Fords. There are a number of guys into Hi-Pot 4 cylider cars, but usually they are older rwd cars using SR20s, FJ20s and some Isuzu or Toyota motors.

At the end of the day, a US WRX will be the fastest qtr mile WRX on the planet, of that I have NO doubt. My only concern is that chasing qtr mile times in a WRX is like building a Bently for autocross - sure you can do it, but for a lot less money you could start with something more appropriate and end up with a more competitive car.

Each to their own!

Cheers,

SKC
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Old 04-03-2002, 09:10 PM   #24
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Touchy aren't we boys.

I said 320 hp max(crank)and now its I'm not impressed with Rigoli from a person who is ONLY 2 sec faster than stock and Rigoli is OVER 2 sec faster than you.

FWIW Most Australians like to drive(steer their cars)not just play with their sticks for 10-12secs).Oh! that must be so skillful. As they pay $43,000 pesos for their cars, why do you think that reliability isn't an issue. Also we use the money for that 9sec WRX, for a beer.

Now let the flame begin.
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Old 04-03-2002, 09:14 PM   #25
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SKC,

I'll give you a couple of hints.. I think I sold you a set of tyres a while ago. Last year I sold a red wagon with an RA box in it. You'll love this, when picking the car up the guy asked "why do you call it an RA box?". I almost cried.
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