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Old 04-06-2002, 10:58 PM   #1
Reciprocity
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Thumbs up Results of Intake test II

OK...we did the testing again today...same place, same time, same roads, same cars. The only difference was the weather. Both were beautiful days but today was a tad bit colder.

The Device:
These are the values it measures
RPM
Speed (MPH or KPH)
Coolant Temp (F or C)
Intake Temp (F or C)
Manifold Pressure (inches of Mercury ie inHg)
Air Flow (gm/sec...more on that later)
Throttle Position (%)
O2 Volts (front and rear...more on that later)
MPG (VERY cool)

My only wish is that is measured fuel pressure, volume or rate...anything about fuel...that would be interesting to see.

Air Flow:
I would assume it would be some volume (like cubic feet or cubic inches) per time...but it logs it as gm/sec...gm per second? What's a "gm"? I don't know...

O2 Volts:
If someone is a clever Palm or PC programer...they could create another gauge pod with this baby...convert the O2 Volts to a lean/stoich/rich gauge...have all the values being displayed, or cycle between them. It would be a much cheaper A/F ratio gauge...with a LOT more versatility!

Palm vs Laptop:
On a Palm you can pick any of those above readings and display them one at a time in real time. They are represented by a number. With a laptop you can display any one of those readings...but this time in a graph, reading vs time. Very trick, very slick...and you can manipulate the graph too...zoom in on sections, freeze it to look at some areas specifically...very very slick. Both the Palm and the laptop can only display one at a time in real time however...doh.

BUT!

With a laptop you can data log! You pick any 4 of the readings...start recording...do your run...stop recording...and it saves the info as a text file which can easily be converted to Excel and manipulated. SWEET! I don't know how long (time duration) of a log you can do. Ours were only around 30 seconds each time, and the files were tiny.

The Tests:
Just like last time we tested 3 different setups.
Stock (bone stock intake)
Cobb
Throttle body (with the box)
And just for fun...Miata with intake.

All 4 times it was a WOT run up a hill. We tried to start from the exact same spot and end at the exact same spot...so the distance should be (pretty much) the same, but the time it took is different.

We used 2 cars (and a Miata). The stock and throttle body intakes were ran on my car (MY00, pulley, Borla header, midpipe, can) and the Cobb was run on Byl-23's car (MY00, Stromong midpipe, can).

The Results:
Well...we saved all the files but Byl-23 is going to e-mail them to me so I can manipulate them and post 'em up for ya. We did get some great results however...

The Verdict:
Hopefully I'll be getting the files soon...it will take me a while to manipulate the data...but I'll be posting the results as soon as I can.

Thanks again to Byl-23 for coming with his Cobb and laptop. I couldn't have done this without him. Thanks to Moe for the Miata test...it's interesting to see the comparison. This time I even BBQ'd so you Bay Area people missed out!

I'll be posting more soon...stay tuned...

NC
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Old 04-07-2002, 12:00 AM   #2
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gm could be gram but i could be wrong
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Old 04-10-2002, 08:14 PM   #3
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Sorry for not posting up our findings sooner...I've been super busy at work and haven't had time to go through the data as thoroughly as I'd like to.

What I do have is numbers for the following parameters...
Airflow (in gm/sec)
Manifold Pressure (in inHg)
Intake Temp (in deg F)
RPM

We measured those for 3 different setups over a rougly 30 second run uphill at WOT...all of them did get to 4th at WOT. Oddly enough the OBD-II scanner takes a measurement every .941 seconds, with a couple exceptions. Odd...

What I (actually Byl-23) have been working on is comparing each graphically.

I hope to have more results up soon...I'd like to post the graphs we have created...they are in Excel and I am not sure how to post them for people to see.

If anyone wants the raw data you can contact Byl-23 or I and we'll e-mail 'em to you.

Keep an eye out...I SHOULD be free tonight to do some posting.

Thanks for your patience! If anyone out there has any ideas/suggestions/thoughts...let me know and I will do my best to address them.

Prelim look...
Manifold pressure: Pretty much the same across the board...with minor exceptions. It would take cams and/or head work for this value to change
Intake temp: The throttle body with box intake wins hands down.
Airflow: This is the interesting one...looks like the throttle body intake wins this as well.

NC
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:50 PM   #4
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Default Scanner?

What make & model OBD II scanner are you using? I'm assuming it plugs directly into the harness w/o splicing. If so, where on the car? Also, just to confirm, is your "throttle body" and "throttle body with box" the same thing - a Ganz type intake retaining the stock air box? Some people have removed the stock air box and attached a conical air filter directly to the throttle body. I really appreciate your quantitative approach. Too bad your device doesn't read out horsepower and torque, both engine and wheels of course!
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:51 PM   #5
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Thumbs up

Hes using a Plam PDA and a program called pocketlogger, I gotta tell ya this thing is sweet, I got a Plam M100 the basic model for $108.00 with tax from best buy, then I got the program from www.pocketlogger.com for $175.00, that includes the OBD-II cable that they send to you by UPS ground. It works great it can clear check engine lights, and you can see all you live sensor values, I think its totally worth the money.
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:07 AM   #6
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PC software came along with the palm software. This is the software we used for this testing so that we could log the results (the plam does not log the results).

The setup comes with a serial cable that connects up to the ecu port under the drivers side of the dash. No need to splice anything

Here are pictures of the different setups:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tbwbox.jpg (49.2 KB, 2493 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:11 AM   #7
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Cobb
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:18 AM   #8
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OK, I am going to attach a series of graphs that we produced using the information we got from testing. I hope this turns out the way I want it to...

Note: For all graphs the X axis is time in seconds...all graphs are the results of a 3rd gear pull uphill at WOT

NC

Last edited by Reciprocity; 04-11-2002 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:22 AM   #9
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Default RPM

I parsed out the data to show only the third gear run for all the cars. This first graph is the RPM build up for each of the three intake designs we tested.

It actually isn't too informative...but it shows how the three different setups reacted to WOT.
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File Type: gif myhtml4.gif (5.1 KB, 1292 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:24 AM   #10
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Default Manifold Pressure

This next graph shows the manifold pressure in inches of mercury for all three intake designs. For the most part they are the same across the board...only minor differences.
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File Type: gif myhtml1.gif (4.8 KB, 1220 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:25 AM   #11
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Default Airflow

This graph shows the "gm/sec" rate for all three intakes...I'm assuming gm = grams. I find that odd though, I figured it would be a volume measurment instead of weight...but it does show a difference between all three.
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File Type: gif myhtml3.gif (5.2 KB, 1193 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:26 AM   #12
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Default Intake Temp

Now this graph has the biggest differences of all...intake temperature.
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File Type: gif myhtml2.gif (4.9 KB, 1287 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:40 AM   #13
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Default My thoughts

OK! The graphs posted up well...that's the good news.

But what does all this mean?

Well, I'm not exactly sure to be honest. It's a bit dificult to compare them to each other...I posted up the RPM information first to show that each run was building up through nearly the full 3rd gear rev range...but as you can see the Cobb started lower and ended lower. In that regard I feel we can't have an exact comparison between the different intakes...more of an estimate. As RPMs build airflow should increase, temp should decrease...and since we are restricted by the heads...pressure should remain pretty much constant.

But there are some differences that do stand out.

1) Manifold Pressure:
The differences between the three setup is minor...as to be expected with the car(s) having the same heads. However the Cobb did have a marginally lower pressure reading across the run.

2) Airflow:
Again, relatively minor differences between the setups...but not as minor as before. The dificulty here is that the graphs X axis is time, not RPM...and at a higher RPM you have more flow...so I am going to try to graph this one with flow vs. RPM and it should give us more information.

3) Temp:
Here is the biggest difference we saw. Both the Cobb and Throttle body intake dropped in temp as the revs built and time passed...stock remained fairly constant. But the Throttle body intake ran much colder than the Cobb did...

I need to go through these numbers more...I'd love to e-mail them out to someone who has a bit more...mmmm...time to fool around with them.

I'm sorry if this hasn't been as informative as I thought it would be...hopefully I will get some more time to fiddle with everything...

But what I would really like to get is some ideas from you folks out there on what we should do with these numbers...what would you like to see? Give Byl-23 or I any feedback you can...and I am more than willing to share the raw data with you.

NC
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:51 AM   #14
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Very interesting. I have one question, is a higher manifold pressure better or a lower manifold pressure better? I know the results were fairly close, just wondering..

And you've made me want to buy the scanning equipment so I can play around with stuff too.
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:54 AM   #15
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Default Stock

Here we have the stock gm/sec (airflow) and temp vs. RPM (3rd gear, WOT, uphill)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:55 AM   #16
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Default Cobb

Here we have the Cobb gm/sec (airflow) and temp vs. RPM (3rd gear, WOT, uphill)
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File Type: gif myhtml2.gif (4.5 KB, 1134 views)
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:57 AM   #17
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Default Throttle Body

Here we have the Throttle Body gm/sec (airflow) and temp vs. RPM (3rd gear, WOT, uphill)

I'm done for tonight...
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:00 AM   #18
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Default Doh!

I forgot to mention...for those last three graphs I had to divide gm/sec by 10 to get them to scale on the graph...

Man I am tired...have fun with this people...I expect lots of suggestions/comments/input over the next couple days.

Byl-23....you da MAN!!

NC
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:03 AM   #19
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I was just looking at the pocketlogger website, and they say that it can not be used on a laptop. Is their website not updated or do you have another program/cable for the laptop?
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:08 AM   #20
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Damn...I just HAD to stay online for a BIT longer.

The OBD-II stuff is from http://www.ghg.net/dharrison/palm.htm
The guy is really cool, responds to e-mails quickly...and sold me the software (for both PC and Palm) plus cables (all easy connect, piece of cake, for both devices)...it works for all 1996 and newer OBD-II cars and light trucks (and Slides OBD-I Legacy wagon...) for $180.00 shipped to my door.

As far as what airflow means to us...I can only assume that more air is good...but I'm sure it's much more complex than that.

NC
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Old 04-11-2002, 04:39 AM   #21
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Neil,

Nice work with the graphs!

Seeing the lower RPM of the Cobb makes me think we should do a couple more runs with each setup until we have the best run for each. We may also want to use just one driver and car to do the testing. This may result in more consistent results. I probably have different patterns of shifting and accelerating.

I can't make it this Saturday (Sailing). I will, however, be available on Sunday.

-Bill
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Old 04-11-2002, 08:10 AM   #22
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Excellent info, guys. So, were the throttle-body-cone intake runs done only with the box on? Where did that box come from? It is an interesting design. I don't currently have a box on mine, but I wouldn't mind one.
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:40 PM   #23
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aren't you worried that youre going to be sucking water in your intake with it mounted to the TB? I'm suprised the cobb intake isn't running cooler, must be cuz of the thin aluminium getting heat soak from the engine.
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:57 PM   #24
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The box I made myself (with a friends help) out of fiberglass. That one looks pretty bad actually...I have another one of better design and quality...but I just couldn't find it.

About rain/water...We just don't get a lot of rain around here so I don't worry about it too much. I have driven it in the rain and had no problems. I'm not terribly concerned about it...there are drain holes in the bottom of the box (it has two lower areas on either side of the filter, and the holes are there).

Byl-23...this whole weekend isn't good for me, perhaps the next one.

NC

Edit: Bugbomb...the box made a HUGE difference in the initial "cold air only" testing. We didn't have the laptop at that time so we didn't do any data logging...but having a box around the filter cools it down a lot. I highly suggest doing it.
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Old 04-11-2002, 03:16 PM   #25
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One thing that is misleading about these graphs, is the stock intake performs nearly as well as the cobb intake does. I'm pretty sure that the cobb has been proven to have noticable gains over stock.

My guess is the inconsistency comes from the cobb being tested on a car with stock headers vs borla headers that was on the car with the stock intake.

Some ideas for future testing...
Test all 3 intakes (and maybe the ganz if you can come across one) on the same car.
Test the cobb, and then test it again insulated with foam or something to reduce heat soak.

Good job on the graphs.

-Matt
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