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Old 02-13-2009, 10:02 PM   #1
Spudchucker
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Default Help Building a SC (you guys are gonna laugh at this after seeing my other thread)

Well, after all that drama in the Raptor Supercharger thread I made, I think I'm actually just gonna build one Reddevil/Skidd style

See, at first I wanted the kit for its ease of install, then I found out that the engine management for supercharging my car doesn't really exist yet (it's being developed), but it can fairly easily be opensource tuned. At that point I decided to teach myself to tune (which is going pretty well so far), planning to then buy just the base kit and tune it myself. Just now I got to thinking, if I'm gonna do the whole tune by myself, why do I have to be limited to one particular $2,000 supercharger out of countless used (and therefore much cheaper) others that I could stick on?


So basically what I am wondering is what should I look out for while building a kit from scratch? If I go on eBay and buy one of the >$500 cores, does it have to be a particular kind, or could I go balls out and get one for a Mustang or something, and just cut a hole in the hood for the oversized intake? Would that still fit on the engine all right?

Also, what are some of the little things one could forget that I would need to get to make it work? Stuff like BOVs, sensors, gages, various ports or routers or tubes or whatever, etc.

Thanks in advance, and I hope to have a pictorial SC build thread for you guys pretty soon
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:26 PM   #2
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Re-read my entire thread again.

If you have the money, you buy an EXSPENSIVE but worth it SC.

If you don't, you buy the clutched M62.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Re-read my entire thread again.

If you have the money, you buy an EXSPENSIVE but worth it SC.

If you don't, you buy the clutched M62.
M62.. Is that this one? $600 new aint bad.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-...1%7C240%3A1318

I actually am considering a topmounted blower haha, never seen one on a 2.5i before
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:32 PM   #4
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And if you haven't checked out my build pages yet, there is some good info too
http://ludicrous-speed.com/wiki/inde...C_Build_part_1
(shameless plug, yet I feel no shame!!)
I'm still working on it, but it's getting there. My new/used EManage Ultimate arrived in the mail today. Weee!!!

And like red said... if you have the cash... go find a twin-screw type SC. I'd have used one could I have afforded one!!
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:33 PM   #5
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No.

This is.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M62-E...1%7C240%3A1318


Dude, KISS (keep it simple stupid). Unless you have a ****wad of money and time, basically copy me and Skidd.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:36 PM   #6
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Topmount!! You mean like this?


or


All pics are from reddevils post #12
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55200
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:40 PM   #7
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Oh yeah.. there is always this top mount too!!
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2785...Lo?vhost=rides
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:46 PM   #8
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Too bad it never ran....


You know, I have built all three options from scratch.

Supercharger
Turbocharger
Compound charged.

And so I have ultimately decided that going turbo is the easiest to do if you want decent power. Not that I don't like the SC, but its WAY easier to just make an up and down pipe IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Of course the same goes for the SC setup.

Reading SKidds and my threads is going to save you DAYS of trouble.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Is that pulley bearing gonna be a problem? I don't know anything about SC rebuilding, so I can only do the basic common sense kind of repairs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
Topmount!! You mean like this?


or


All pics are from reddevils post #12
http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55200
Something like that, only with the intake sticking out of the top of the hood, muscle car style. I've never seen that done, and think it would be kinda cool

And that bottom pic is a twin screw right? I'm bummed cause I missed a good opportunity to buy one of those, $1,000 for the entire Subie kit
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Too bad it never ran....


You know, I have built all three options from scratch.

Supercharger
Turbocharger
Compound charged.

And so I have ultimately decided that going turbo is the easiest to do if you want decent power. Not that I don't like the SC, but its WAY easier to just make an up and down pipe IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Of course the same goes for the SC setup.

Reading SKidds and my threads is going to save you DAYS of trouble.
Yeah I consent that turbos have a higher HP capacity, and that they can do a lot of good stuff, but something about the classic design and the crazy whine that goes with the supercharger just calls to me.

I'll be reading diligently, once again
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:54 PM   #11
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Kinda funny red, how it's you and I that have been responding to this thread.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:55 PM   #12
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Is the clutch what makes it so you can turn the SC on and off at the flick of a switch? That would make it totally worth the $800 price tag http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-...1%7C240%3A1318
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:57 PM   #13
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If your serious about this endeavour.. go buy "Supercharged" by Corky Bell.
I'm serious. If you want to really give this a go, you gotta start with information.
And that is one of (if not the) best supercharger books out there.
That book will answer alot of your question, and generate more.

P.S. Yes, it's teh electric clutch that allows Red to turn his SC on and off. All the roots style M62s that came from a Mercedes C230 are clutch driven pulleys. M62s from other models of cars were mostly not clutch driven, but instead incorporated a CBV.

Oh yeah.. and $800 is high, except for a brand new/rebuild SC. I picked up my C230 M62 for $350. It happened to be in near new/mint condition.
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:22 AM   #14
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Yeah I realize that's a bit on the expensive side, but I don't want to get one that needs something fixed, because frankly I won't know how to fix it. I'm talking to a couple of eBay sellers right now seeing what they have for clutched m62s in perfect working order

Will be on the lookout for "Supercharged"

-EDIT- "Supercharged! Design, Testing and Installation of Supercharger Systems" by Corky Bell is now on it's way for a mere $20, thank you Amazon.com


Also, have either of you heard of changing out your SC pulley to gain boost? Rather than have someone make a huge pulley (which theoretically should rob a decent amount of horsepower potential) you can get smaller pulleys at one pound of boost increments for the M62.. See here: http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_p...=321&catid=111

Last edited by Spudchucker; 02-14-2009 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:49 AM   #15
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Ok.. Look.. I'm really willing to help anybody out on this board.. I really am.. but you gotta help yourself too my friend! I can tell by your question (smaller pulley) that you didn't read my build-pages. Go search and read and find every bit of information you can get your hands on. You'll learn way more than you realize. Then you'll have the info you need to know where to start, and what to ask.

Shane.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
Ok.. Look.. I'm really willing to help anybody out on this board.. I really am.. but you gotta help yourself too my friend! I can tell by your question (smaller pulley) that you didn't read my build-pages. Go search and read and find every bit of information you can get your hands on. You'll learn way more than you realize. Then you'll have the info you need to know where to start, and what to ask.

Shane.
First of all I appreciate any help that you have given/will give me.. The fact that you and Red have done this already and have loads of wisdom in the area is comforting to me, and I am very grateful.

I am doing research like a madman right now though, so if there's something I am not clued in on yet, it is only because I haven't gotten to that particular page yet, not because I'm not doing my studying. I have spent literally 5+ hours a day for the last week straight diligently researching everything that has to do with tuning and supercharging. As part of my studying actually, I am logging the definition of any terms or abbreviations at all that I come across, so when I'm through with my basic researching, I will have a definition list of hundreds of terms to post (and hopefully sticky for any new guys, as this hasn't really been done to any good extent yet) at the ROMRainder forums. At this rate, I'm hoping that in a few months we'll be able to exchange help and advice with each other, not just feed it into me unreturned

Once again, thanks for being here to answer my questions.

Also, just as an update, I will probably be spending $600-$800 for a new/remanufactured m62 with a clutch very soon, just so I know I have a SC in perfect, new working order to start out with. Though it's more than what you paid, it's still a lot cheaper than the $2,000 I was gonna pay for the Raptor kit

I'm also buying a welder on Craigs list, and a new laptop/Tactrix cable for this build/tune I'm assuming I will pick up welding quickly, because I am a professional portrait artist on the side of my regular job (very good finger movement and eye coordination) Let's hope I'm right haha

Last edited by Spudchucker; 02-14-2009 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudchucker View Post
If I go on eBay and buy one of the >$500 cores, does it have to be a particular kind, or could I go balls out and get one for a Mustang or something, and just cut a hole in the hood for the oversized intake? Would that still fit on the engine all right?
I would have to say definitely go bigger, maybe one one like this.
http://www.classicnation.com/picture...percharger.jpg

Seriously though. Depending on the type of supercharger that you use you need to keep the input above certain RPM to produce usable boost. On a Roots or Twin-screw type that RPM level is fairly low, but on a centrifigul like the Raptor you need to get the thing spinning faster to be able to build any decent boost pressure.

To achieve the ideal efficiency from each type of SC they need to be run at a certain RPM range. If you put a massive supercharger on a small engine you will create more heat and waste more energy trying to turn all of the extra internal weight. You will also not be able to keep the SC running in that ideal range without forcing way more pressure into your engine than it can handle.

Good luck, and keep us all updated on your progress.
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:34 PM   #18
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I would have to say definitely go bigger, maybe one one like this.
http://www.classicnation.com/picture...percharger.jpg

Seriously though. Depending on the type of supercharger that you use you need to keep the input above certain RPM to produce usable boost. On a Roots or Twin-screw type that RPM level is fairly low, but on a centrifigul like the Raptor you need to get the thing spinning faster to be able to build any decent boost pressure.

To achieve the ideal efficiency from each type of SC they need to be run at a certain RPM range. If you put a massive supercharger on a small engine you will create more heat and waste more energy trying to turn all of the extra internal weight. You will also not be able to keep the SC running in that ideal range without forcing way more pressure into your engine than it can handle.

Good luck, and keep us all updated on your progress.
LOL is that thing real??? Yeah it's got the wow factor and all, and probably tons of power to boot, but I'd just bust out laughing AT it if I saw it driving down the street

That's a good point with the larger superchargers though- The thought was kinda sitting in the back of my mind before, but bringing it forward now, this basically this means that the smallest charger I can get for the amount of PSI I am looking for would be my best bet, right? On that principle, I (like the others haha) am looking at the m62, because it seems "just right" for size/load/ease of fabrication, and not to mention the price. The on/off clutch switch thing is pretty badass as well

Looking back, the reason I even considered the larger chargers was because they are so freakin cheap on eBay.. you can get Eaton chargers for Mustangs in perfect condition for like $150-$250 all over eBay, while the C230 ones are more like $400+ in good working order, and $600-$800 in perfect condition w/perfect condition clutch (which is the route I'm going.. I'm gonna go with the K.I.S.S. plan, using a perfectly working, new or refurbished core to start the build on )
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:44 PM   #19
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this is a semi thread jack here, sorry. but it pertains to pullys. has anyone come out with a CVT of sorts for a supercharger? it would allow full boost from literally idle.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:01 PM   #20
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I got a cool idea, should be able to save money by getting a clutchless m62, while still being able to turn it on and off at the flick of a switch. I present my solenoid-powered on/off switchable supercharger design (brought to you by our own wonderful MS Paint ) There's three solenoids joined to one bigger pipe because I can only find small 12 volt valves on eBay.. Plus, it would be cool have have 3 different stages of power increase, all activated by the flick of another switch on the dash By only flicking one or two switches, I should be able to run at lower boost levels until I build up my engine, then I can run the higher levels, which will already be ready on account of my charger will have been installed to produce them from the beginning.


Last edited by Spudchucker; 02-15-2009 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:24 PM   #21
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Kiss!!!!
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:50 PM   #22
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BOO YA just won a perfect condition polished M90 on eBay for $175 shipped WOO I know, m90 is for slightly bigger engines.. I'll just have to get some stronger internals and uppity teh boost

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-...1%7C240%3A1318


IT HAS BEGUN!!

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:07 PM   #23
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As soon as that thing shows up, you will want to sell it..... Its about 24" long.



The Mercedes m62 is shorter than the shortest one by about 4-5"!!!!! I think you have the 3rd from the left.

Last edited by reddevil; 02-15-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:35 PM   #24
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As soon as that thing shows up, you will want to sell it..... Its about 24" long.



The Mercedes m62 is shorter than the shortest one by about 4-5"!!!!! I think you have the one on the far right.
Nope it's the one on the left, look at the ring widths on the back of it.. It's for a 3.8 liter thunderbird engine, the one on the right is for the Mustang 5.0 I believe, might be the M121?
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:40 PM   #25
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Sorry, 3rd from left. Still about 24" long
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